First of all this isn't a (Trade or Sell Gun) I wan't to keep it and I want it to shoot better.

It is a Weatherby Vangaurd 7 Rem mag, Leupold VariX II 3x9x40 scope with Leupold dual dovetail line lapped rings. All New.

Gun has a factory test target in the box 7/8" 100 yrd group fired in Japan.

24 different loads/bullet combos so far best group 1 7/8" worst 2 1/4" at 100 yds.

120 rounds fired

Reciever front/recoil lug and reciever tang glassed in.

Trigger is as low as I can adjust 4 lbs.

Magazine box filed for a loose fit.

Stock screw holes opened up to allow floor plate tigger assy to fit without binding.

Barrel is not floated but I have relieved a ton of preasure from sanding but the barrel is still touching as of now.

Factory crown.

What would you do next?

I guess the first thing I'd do is see if I could find out what ammo they used. Then if it is available, I'd try some of that. If it still shot well with that ammo, I'd weigh a bullet and chronograph the load...just to see what I'm looking to duplicate, vibration-wise. Of course, then I'd try to duplicate the velocity of that test ammo with a bullet of about the same weight, which I preferred.

Then, if all that didn't give me something I liked by way of a load, then and only then would I start putzing with the rifle at all.

The next thing I would do (first thing on the rifle) would be to get a 5X to 10X glass and closely examine the crown. Of course, if you have the tools and ability to recrown it yourself, I wouldn't even bother to look. I'd just go ahead and re-crown it.

Second, I'd free the barrel so it doesn't touch anywhere, WHEN FIRED. That'll take more clearance than the usual "dollar-bill" clearance test. If that didn't bring it around, then I'd glass the front receiver ring and the tang.

If that didn't work, then rather than continue to screw with it, I'd get rid of it and let someone else worry about it. A brand new factory Vanguard is a hunting rifle (supposedly), not a "learn gunsmithing" rifle. I'd prefer to spend my time shooting/hunting instead of working on it. But then, I'm not over-fond of Howas anyway. (Whether sold new as Weatherbys or Mossbergs, and both have been done.)

Hope it comes around easily for you. Best of luck.

AC

quote:

Barrel is not floated but I have relieved a ton of preasure from sanding but the barrel is still touching as of now.

sand it until it don't touch. Even a few ounces of pressure can be too much

Hello,
The advise of recrowning is a good place to start and if not wanting to do it yourself, find a good 'smith and have him crown the muzzle. Not to be elementary, whatever alterations, modifications, etc. you do attempt on the rifle, do one at a time or risk being "lost" and not able to determine the culprit. Would not be that concerned about the trigger at this time, weight is fine as you now have it, but while having the crown work done, request that the barrel itself be inspected w/bore scope if possible. After shooting w/ those things done and still no improvement, my guess would be you have a bedding problem. Take an appropriate size wooden dowel rod, wrap some 120 grit paper around and rout out that barrel channel perhaps more than you would like from a cosmetic viewpoint, but you are attempting to make it shoot well and that's what it is supposed to do. I would further suggest that you set the torque of the action screws to a known number and attempt to make an even pressure on the action area. As for your loads have no idea as to just what the loads are, but would experiment w/ bullet seating depth from close to lands and grooves to several thousands off of same. Books have been written on your question and above only very basic suggestions, but again, would do only one change at a time and check for results, good or bad. Good luck!!

I would start by free floating the barrel then bedding the action and about 3 inchs of the barrel forward of the action. I have had great luck in getting rifles to shoot doing this.

Uhhh, before you start routing too much wood out of your barrel channel and such (it's dang hard to put back) try making a couple of shims out of card stock (aka bisiness cards) and put one or more of them on the action screws between the stock and the action and lift the barrel and action free of the stock. You kinda half-assed pillar bedding it or free floating it and see if that helps your grouping. You might want to try a biz card between the barrel and the stock out near the end of the stock for a little more up pressure. See if that helps. IMO, that free float mantra ain't all its cracked up to be with those thin barrels.
If that doesn't help, you can always start hacking on the stock.
I certainly agree that whatever you do, do it one at a time and give it a fair chance before going on to something else. The advantage of using shims and such is you can always go back to point A. If you've sanded away half your stock and it hasn't helped, you're screwed.

I'd re-barrel, with the best barrel possible. That is the heart of a rifle shooting well.

Other have mentioned many of the stock answers, no pun intended. I'd suggest that you check you scope mounts, rings and scope. The factory target clearly shows what it can do with irons or in a "jig" or with factory optics. Different optics/sighting is the first major change you have introduced.

The second items is one not often considered, but you had to assemble the rifle and the factory group was fired with the factory's "setting" on the actions screws. The Vanguard is a Mauser type action, if memory serves, and has two screws. I'd torque the front screws down with some real beef, and the tang screw just tight enough to stay screwed in.

Then I'd try it with whatever ammo the factory used for its test. You have now set a baseline for further study. Kudude

I would sure look at the crown to see if it was nicked... then if not and despite the scope and rings being new, I would put a known good scope on it, probably in some talley light weights for me anyway. Clean the barrel with some foaming bore cleaner a bit, maybe a bit of non embedding bore polish as well. Start with the Nosler Ballistic Tip seated out until its about touching the lands, (I just play with this until the bolt closes easily and no markes are left on the chambered round but that is just me) and stick with it thru a ladder series to see if anything shoots. If you cannot get the ballistic tip to shoot, the crown ain't nicked, the scope and rings good, then maybe you have got an enigma on your hands...??

Free float the barrel and bed the action to the stock. Clean the barrel with your choice of copper remover. Usually a 7Mag will lay down a good amount of copper.

Have you tried factory ammo as a benchmark? It could be the best the rifle will do is 1 1/2". I don;t take much stock in factory supplied test targets. Also have someone else shoot your best ammo. It could be you. I wouldn;t start messing w/ bedding until you make sure you have removed other variables.

Might want to try another scope.

quote:

Might want to try another scope.

I was just going to say exactly the same thing. I would first of check that the screws are all tight to maker's specification and then examine the muzzle to see if the crown were damaged, then try the rifle with another 'scope. And try it iwth, if it has any, its iron sights.

I have a BRNO ZKK. Couldn't get it to consistently hold less than 2moa with its 'scope. Tried everything. Waste of time. Took 'scope off tried it with iron sights. Three shot group at 100 yards less than .5moa.

Problem was the 'scope all along.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Might want to try another scope.

I was just going to say exactly the same thing. I would first of check that the screws are all tight to maker's specification and then examine the muzzle to see if the crown were damaged, then try the rifle with another 'scope. And try it iwth, if it has any, its iron sights.

I have a BRNO ZKK. Couldn't get it to consistently hold less than 2moa with its 'scope. Tried everything. Waste of time. Took 'scope off tried it with iron sights. Three shot group at 100 yards less than .5moa.

Problem was the 'scope all along.

That could well be the problem.

If a new scope doesn't cure it..off to Krieger, Lilja, Hart etc

I have a regimen that I go through with each new factory rifle I buy that has provided good accuray for these rifles.
Since factory barrels are not lapped by the barrel maker, I scrub the bore well with JB Bore Paste to smooth out tool marks left from the machining process, concentrating on the chamber's leade area.
I free float the barrel, and bed the action if the rifle doesn't shoot well; but leave it as it came from the factory if I get good accuracy.
I do a trigger job on all of the rifles. I want a good clean break with zero creep or overtravel.
Then, I concentrate on the load. I sort brass by weight, de-burr flash holes and ream primer pockets, followed by neck sizing new brass and chamfering case mouths. I select the usual suspect powders and the bullet I want to use in the rifle and test, to find the right combination of components. That has worked for me as all of my rifles shoot very well.

Don

Yep. totally float that barrel. Put another 50-70 rounds through the barrel, cleaning properly. Try a different/lower powder charge.

If this is a brand new gun, then I'd be careful about doing to much to it, unless your sure your not going to sent it back to Weatherby. If you write them, probably the first thing they're going to suggest is that you use some of their factory ammo. I know it is expensive, but I think that's what I'd do. The only things different from what they did to get the group they sent with the rifle is that you're not using factory ammo and the scope setup. After trying the factory ammo, I'd try a different scope (and mounts).

PS I've got a 30-06 that I've tried about as many handloads as you have through it and I can't get it to shoot as well as with Remington factory ammo. If I just wen't on my handloads I'd say it doesn't shoot worth a darn, BUT it shoots Remington factory ammo great.

Things I have done or checked.

Many of you are telling me to glass the action...It is already done.

The scope swap with a known great scope (Vari X III of another rifle) showed the same group sizes as before (Not the scope)

Bases are tight and dual dovetail rings are lapped and lined up to the centerline of the barrels bore useing a special custom jig I use just for this purpose. (Not a ring/base issue)

I will next float the barrel before the next range session.

The stock had huge bedding issues is why I glassed it in very early in this project.

As far as re-barrel.....I don't want to keep this gun that bad.

Ted, you sound pretty thorough, so you probably already did this, but make sure your stock screws are tight. This is the single biggest issue I saw with 'inaccurate' rifles when working in a shop for several years, much more than anything else.

One other thing, as you probably know, Weatherby's are famous for a long throat, and I have found in several I have fooled wiht, that you had to seat the bullet way out there to get good accuracy.

Lastly, I have had VERY good luck getting rigs to shoot better by firelapping the barrel. I would seriously consider this. I've used the Tubbs final finish system a BUNCH of times, never with bad results, and sometimes with FANTASTIC results. I had a buddy who was ready to throw a 300 WSM in the trash, we firelapped it and it became a 1/2 minute gun in about 5 hours of shooting and cleaning!

Just some intel, hope you get her figured out.

Good luck!

I would try a different powder First then a different bullet. If it keeps big groups then its the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I would try a different powder First then a different bullet. If it keeps big groups then its the barrel.

24 different powder/bullet combonations

Every factory barrel I have had that did not shoot well, "1" or under", afler bedding, floating, and trigger job, has had groups reduced from 30-50% by final finish. I know alot of folks don't like, but it has worked well for me. Also on a 7 mag, I myself don not worry about getting that last 500 rounds out of the barrel that most say you loose. I wont shoot that many down my 7 mag in a lifetime. This would be after I have tried all the above advice.

As someone else mentioned, get some copper solvent and let the barrel soak awhile. I use Hoppe's #9 because it is supposedly safe to leave in the bore for extended periods. Afterwards, push a wet patch through and look at the green color. Do a couple more wet patches, then let it soak some more.

I had this experience with a 7 Mag. The barrel looked clean to my eyes, but the solvent informed me otherwise.

Well there comes a time when you have to accept it isn't worth any extra effort and walk away.

My Vangard tightened WAY up with handloads .05 off the lands it seems Weatherbys have quite a lot of freebore and all factory loads were way off the lands.

I have that same gun, shot just over a inch groups out of the box with factory ammo. Thought it was capable of doing better so I floated the barrel and got 3" groups. After shimming the forend, was able to get back to previous accuracy. Handloading and another 60 rounds or so I can get a nice 5/8" 3 round group.154 Hrndy Interlock/68grs H1000 @ 2829fps.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
My Vangard tightened WAY up with handloads .05 off the lands it seems Weatherbys have quite a lot of freebore and all factory loads were way off the lands.

JTEX...did you meen .005 (five thou) not .05 (fifty thou)