That was painful to see.

Pretty sure he stored it in an entry way/turned shop/ addition on the trailer he rents. Without much climate control.

The lack of heat ruined the finish on a stock he "did" for me.

My metal work had a touch of rust on it, but was easily removed. This was in January 09 when I picked it up from him after having enough of his BS.

I just hate seeing that metalwork of Paul's. Makes me sick.

What has happened to Bill Soverns? I just don't get how he could have so completely fallen apart like this. Does anyone know?

What has happened to him? Is he ill? Physically? Mentally? Is he bankrupt? Alcoholic? Depressed?

I corresponded with him for a while on a project. Then he just stopped responding altogether.

I am serious. This kind of thing is a sign of a man in trouble. His standards were once very high, and he is capable, apparently, of excellent work.

Not to deny or slight the damage that has been done to the metal work in question, but steel is steel and can be replaced - not so a human life.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
What has happened to Bill Soverns? I just don't get how he could have so completely fallen apart like this. Does anyone know?

Bill always had a poor me attitude and took the position that nothing was his fault. Everyone was out to get him.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
What has happened to Bill Soverns? I just don't get how he could have so completely fallen apart like this. Does anyone know?

What has happened to him? Is he ill? Physically? Mentally? Is he bankrupt? Alcoholic? Depressed?

This kind of thing is a sign of a man in trouble. His standards were once very high, and he is capable, apparently, of excellent work.

Not to deny or slight the damage that has been done to the metal work in question, but steel is steel and can be replaced - not so a human life.

I believe has has fallen apart. I know went bankrupt a while back. His downfall started a few years ago back in Washington when he got laid off from EDS, tried to get into the gun business and progressively spiraled down from there.

I had helped him a few years back, paid for a project in full and when he needed $ told him to put me on the back burner and do sumpin else to feed his family. Also gave him a couple of actions and blanks as a Xmas gift to sell. Things got worse, he went tits up and filed I think last year or even '08, then he got flooded, it all took its toll.

I'm not one for kicking someone when he's down. I just want my two actions and blanks left that he has. Unfortunately, today in fact, it pained me to finally ask someone from the guild (which he has been kicked out) to contact him. Even though Bill is no longer a member, this same person's intervention resulted in 4 other customers get back their crap. Ultimately it was Bill being told 1. the law 2. lawyers and 3. the ATF would be involved that got results. I asked the gentleman not to threaten Bill, just have him send it.

Frankly the only people who should be pissed are his customers. Some probably are, but others I'm sure after they vent, etc pause and think.......... and feel bad for him. What's that phrase......there but by the grace of god go I or some shit like that. Dunno, not religious.....Franciscan HS and Jesuit College will do that to ya

Glad to see some human empathy here. The moment I saw this action's pictures I wondered if the man was very ill or had a serious breakdown for him to even send it back in that condition without giving it a good scrub.

My personal lay-man's opinion is that the rifle can be restored with minimum cost. Most of that is surface rust with some mild pitting. A good bead blast & polish will get it back to new & you wouldn't know the difference. The bore will need inspection. If it was oiled & left alone, I would be surprised if it was rusted at all. I bought a M98 Simson rifle with mint bores that had serious surface rust & pitting outside as it was neglected in some barn. Got it restored and some of the pitting was too deep to remove but the bore is mint!

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

Frankly the only people who should be pissed are his customers. Some probably are, but others I'm sure after they vent, etc pause and think.......... and feel bad for him. What's that phrase......there but by the grace of god go I

+1000

I really feel sorry for his customers, but I feel most sorry for Bill.

I know a lot of people got screwed, but it looks like Bill lost everything. Damn shame.

IMO, it's fine to feel sorry for a person down on his luck. However, being down on his luck is no excuse for the utter neglect and outright disrespect that he showed to the property of another. Being down on one's luck is no excuse for not picking up a phone and letting someone know that you would not be able to follow through on your obligations.

Bills actions, or lack thereof, is compelling testimony to the fact that he is a despicable human being.

"Character is doing the right thing, when nobody is looking"

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Bill always had a poor me attitude and took the position that nothing was his fault. Everyone was out to get him.

Bill end up exactly were his mind lead him...
Just one of those little laws of nature..

This type of work ethic probably explains why EDS fired him.

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
IMO, it's fine to feel sorry for a person down on his luck. However, being down on his luck is no excuse for the utter neglect and outright disrespect that he showed to the property of another. Being down on one's luck is no excuse for not picking up a phone and letting someone know that you would not be able to follow through on your obligations.

Bills actions, or lack thereof, is compelling testimony to the fact that he is a despicable human being.

I feel sorry for some of you that you would put and meterial object before a fellow man.

NONE OF YOU HAVE WALKED IN HIS SHOES TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING THROUGH HIS MIND.

On the other hand I would have never sent a barrled action in the white without protection.

I feel sorry for those who make excuses for derelict, despicable behavior and the people they enable by way of those excuses.

I'm sure Bernie Madoff was just misunderstood as well.

quote:

This type of work ethic probably explains why EDS fired him.

I believe his position was outsourced.

quote:

What has happened to Bill Soverns? I just don't get how he could have so completely fallen apart like this. Does anyone know?

What has happened to him? Is he ill? Physically? Mentally? Is he bankrupt? Alcoholic? Depressed?

If someone figure's it out, let me know. I knew him fairly well, took him & his son hunting, helped him get his first elk.

But something serious happened, I haven't figured it out yet. Don't know if something from his past caught up with him, mentally lost it, alcohol, worse? Who knows?

You are what you repeatedly do. What he has done is repeatedly screw people that he got involved with. It catches up to you.

I had empathy for him, tried to help. So did a few other people. But everyone he got involved with, ended the same way.

That is why I posted the Sheriff of Butte county's phone number on a couple threads. That is the only way to get any action out of him. If he would even answer the door for them.

quote:

On the other hand I would have never sent a barrled action in the white without protection.

Hunt Ducks:

Go fuck yourself. To post something like this is a slap in my face. Do you honestly think that a man who owns a number of high end guns didn't take precaution to protect his items?

For the record, Bill had my stuff for OVER THREE FUCKING YEARS.

Let me say this again, HE HAD MY STUFF FOR OVER THREE FUCKING YEARS!

I have NO CONTROL over what he did with my items while IN HIS POSSESSION!

Yes, I'm pissed and livid.

I don't know, maybe I hold people to a higher standard to not fuck up things that don't belong to them.

I would expect that when I pay someone to perform a service for me, that they will do it. Also, keeping a barreled action safe doesn't take a PH.D. in lubricants to know that simply rubbing it down with gun oil from time to time will keep it safe from rust.

Look at my action.

What did Billy do to this? NOTHING. HE MADE NO FUCKING EFFORT TO DO ANYTHING FOR MY PROPERTY. HE BENT ME OVER AND FUCKED ME DRY IN THE ASS. PERIOD.

I don't give a flying fuck if his mother died, his kid died, he was abducted by aliens and anally probed. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS TYPE OF NEGLECT! Period. Arge against it if you want...it's bull shit.

Walk a mile in his shoes? Fuck him and his shoes. If you can't do the job, tell the people you have work for and tell them that. I had money tied up with him. Now, I get my items back and I have to spend more money, and more time to fix something that ISN'T MY FAULT.

Let me ask you, how many times has Billy picked up a phone, or sat at a keyboard and said or written, "Hey, I'm running on hard times and will not be able to do the work I promised - I am returning your items."

ZERO POINT ZERO times.

Nadda.

Zip.

Zilch.

ZIPPO.

It wasn't until his customers begged, pleaded, begged that he even responded to a message. Ask anyone.

Is this the way we should accept it?

NO!

I don't care what he encountered. For those of you who are holier than thou, and say we should forgive, PLEASE! I'm not a retard. And I am not one to role over and let some asshole shove it up my ass.

Man up and so what it right. Billy didn't do ANYTHING to man up. He deserves what he gets. He had my stuff for over three years; look what I got back.

Yes I'm pissed and emotional...if you don't like what I wrote, I really don't care. Go preach to the girl scouts, 'cause you will get no sympathy from me.

for the most part I agree with 577's post. (except the part about a kid dying, I know as a parent he doesn't mean that part and is just really hot right now. a kid dying ruins a person for life I would think, and would forgive just about anything from somebody that had it happen)

but that gets off topic, I agree with the f*(k you in regards to not protecting metal in the while. Many smiths recommend leaving the metalwork in the white until the stock work is done. other than oiling it and wrapping it in clean paper (most newspapers will sell endrolls by the way, excellent paper for this) what can a person do?

and if you were a gunsmith and a client gave you something in the white, wouldn't you rub it down in oil yourself anyways, whether it was already oiled or not? what an asshole comment to make.

As to Bill, I have empathy for him, lots of things can go wrong in a person's life, I hope he's able to get up, brush himself off, and contact people and at least communicate and try to make things right even if it takes him time.

Red

I agree with 577's post too. And I couldnt believe Ducks post.
There is no excuse for Leaving a customers property out in the elements to get ruined like that.

I don't know this Bill fellow.
But I had something like this happen once.
The fellow turned out to be BiPolar. He later took his own life.
I also learned that suicide is common in BiPolar people.
There lives must be a living hell.
Is Bill?
I have no idea. You just cant judge people untill you know them.

John

What he did was wrong. But it's only a piece of fucking metal.

Until I get back my crap I'm out a little over $7 large, how much out are the rest of you?

PS For the record I don't go to church, don't believe in god and couldn't give a shit what jesus would do.

Edit:

I find no fault in anything Paul said- 100%, every single word. He has earned the right to be this angry. Been there done that, felt the same way, same thoughts even worse. Also been in Bill's shoes. Bottom line is shit happens.

Remember though, revenge is a dish best served cold.

....but in this case it's already been served............

1. His family wife/kids/etc have and continue to suffer.
2. His dreams (of building guns) are gone.
3. His business is gone and he'll prolly never be able to work on a gun ever again.
4. His dignity as a man is gone.
5. His life as he knew it is gone.

If I ever get my stuff back, perhaps I too will be angry. But shit happens.

quote:

I don't give a flying fuck if his mother died, his kid died,...

such an outlook is more tragic than some rusted metal.
Maybe Bills attitude is only as cold & careless toward an customers sons metal, as is his customers attitude toward the fate of anothers child.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
What he did was wrong. But it's only a piece of fucking metal.

Until I get back my crap I'm out a little over $7 large.

I have a question that I hope isn't seen as picking a fight. In the age of really cheap airline travel, what has kept you from just showing up at Bill's house? Do we know his address? $7K seems a bit much to just wait on I think. What kept the OP waiting after say year two of this saga? I am honestly not placing any blame here, I am really just curious and can't see myself as having this kind of self-restraint. Maybe hindsight is 20/20?

quote:

On the other hand I would have never sent a barrled action in the white without protection

It isn't my rifle and this comment raised my blood pressure and I don't know nitro from Adam.

Based on the remainer of the thread I take it that the comment pi$$ed him off and he ranted. Since this rifle is for his son I seriously doubt that he wishes any harm to anyone's kids or family. Yes family problems etc are hell but life goes on. If you take $$ and items from others and say you are going to provide a service. You owe it to thsoe people to at the very least keep in contact and protect their items. If you are leaving the business so be it tell people and send their stuff and $$ back.

Yes losing a family member is a bitch. I lost my 7 year old youngest son in 1996. Did it tear me apart you bet. I had a part time business a full time 12hr a day job and the rest of the family to help through the loss. Heck I still miss him and still thing about him daily. After my loss I found out several people I had worked with had lost kids as well. What you will find is the vast majority deal with it and life goes on. Only a very few let it get the best of them.

It is fantastic that some members on this site and write a check for $7000 or send that much property and not worry about ever getting it back. There are a lot of us that would need a couple years to put that much FUN money back. Those who don't need to worry about it have no right to look down the nose at those that do need to worry.

All:

For the record, I do not want anyone's child harmed, dead or sick. Period. I have my own son; he is my life and I cannot imagine anything ever happening to him.

What I was trying to say is this: Even after a tragic event, there is no excuse for the neglect of someone elses things.

Maybe I hold people at too high of standard, but when I have something that belongs to someone else, I make sure I return it. If I break it while I have it, I fix it or replace it. I did that two years ago when I borrowed a neighbor's tiller and it got away from me and I ran it into a wooden post - I cracked the engine.

It cost me about $200 bucks to fix, but I made it right.

I didn't get anything except being jerked around time and again from Bill.

When I commissioned Bill to do this job, I told him how important it was to me and that I wanted it done perfect. I didn't care how long it took. I told him to take his time and do it right.

The man didn't do ANYTHING to my blank the ENTIRE time he had. NOTHING! I would reach out to him every couple months, and he all ways had an excuse - something came up, he's finishing an other project, but all ways said that he will start it "next month" or "in a few weeks."

I live in Virginia; Bill lives in South Dakota. When I sent the barrelled action to Bill, he said that he would do the bluing on it too. I did my best to protect the rifle the best I could, but I thought hey! It's going to a custom stock maker who is a gunsmith. It will be in good hands.

Some hands it was in.

Pathetic.

I only found out about Bill closing up shop here on AR in December. But according to people, he was out of business a fair number of months before hand.

Still, never a message or anything even after hanging up the stock making tools.

I know Paul and his Dad personally,have broken bread with both of these guys many a time in camp,I know them to be very decent people,what he has gone through with this sorry lame ass gunsmith is incredibly stressful,all this f....ng guy had to do was communicate,he does not get any sympathy from me!!!

Bal:

Thank you. You are a gentleman of the first order. If you were stuck in hell, I would rush in, even if I only had a squirt gun to aid me. Thank you for being my friend.

FMC:

Thank you for your kind words. I am beyond what has happened to my action. This will turn out to be a great project as it is for my son. I'm pretty confident that the gun can be fixed - it just sucks that now I have to put out more money and time to make something right that shouldn't have been made wrong. That really PMO.

Yes, I was harsh on Billy. I don't know what his story is. Do I feel sorry for him? Of course I do. Am I pissed that he went down this road, absolutely.

We was an active member on this board for awhile. He got good remarks from people whom he did work for, and he was one of us who just got into the ACGG. I supported him and hired him to do my project.

Live and learn...but I'm still pissed.

Makes me sick to see this happen. What does it take to wipe a gun down with a oily rag?

The rust is worse than I expected when I read about it.

You know some people here would probably defend OJ. Bill made his own bed. I have no pity for the man, he has no honor.

Trax:

I see you edited your post. Fuck you too.

Do you think I wish ill on anyone's child? Did you read that into my post? Wow! Do you think that I am some heathen that eats boiled babies for breakfast?

Let me ask you this: If something tragic happened to you, would your mortgage company care? Or would they expect you to own up to your obligation in the face of anything that happened to you?

Would your credit card company expect a payment in the face of a personal tragedy?

What about your power company? Your water and sewer?

What about the IRS if the tragedy happened around April?

All I am saying is no matter what happened, if Billy was a man, he should have manned up and did what was right.

But no, you think I'm an ass hole and wish his kid died. Reading comprehension, man; it works wonders.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:


Bill always had a poor me attitude and took the position that nothing was his fault. Everyone was out to get him.

Well, it looks like he finally got the second part right.

Man...that is painful to look at. Paul, my friend, I hate this happened. Keep us posted on what Roger says.

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
Trax:

I see you edited your post. Fuck you too.

Do you think I wish ill on anyone's child? Did you read that into my post? Wow! Do you think that I am some heathen that eats boiled babies for breakfast?

Let me ask you this: If something tragic happened to you, would your mortgage company care? Or would they expect you to own up to your obligation in the face of anything that happened to you?

Would your credit card company expect a payment in the face of a personal tragedy?

What about your power company? Your water and sewer?

What about the IRS if the tragedy happened around April?

All I am saying is no matter what happened, if Billy was a man, he should have manned up and did what was right.

But no, you think I'm an ass hole and wish his kid died. Reading comprehension, man; it works wonders.

Nowhere before or after my edit, did I say that you wished ill to his child, nor did I interpret your posts that way. [I edited simply to further express myself].
Actually wishing Ill or simply not giving afuck[disinterest], are not quite the same thing to me, but the context in which you expressed the later,still indicates poor attitude.
If you read the bold, you begin by asking what I think, then some lines down you tell me what Im thinking...clearly your minds already made up!

quote:

Originally posted by Hunt-ducks:

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
IMO, it's fine to feel sorry for a person down on his luck. However, being down on his luck is no excuse for the utter neglect and outright disrespect that he showed to the property of another. Being down on one's luck is no excuse for not picking up a phone and letting someone know that you would not be able to follow through on your obligations.

Bills actions, or lack thereof, is compelling testimony to the fact that he is a despicable human being.

I feel sorry for some of you that you would put and meterial object before a fellow man.

NONE OF YOU HAVE WALKED IN HIS SHOES TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING THROUGH HIS MIND.

On the other hand I would have never sent a barrled action in the white without protection.

Spoken like a man who has fucked people over and not wanted to be held accountable.

About three years ago I embarked on a do it myself stock project on my Browning Medallion.

I wanted to change the high gloss finish to a rubbed oil and re cut the checkering.

I posted more than one post here with questions on the How-Too's......Bill gave me great advise on the entire project via PM's and the project was a big success.

I read a post of his looking for an elk hunt for himself and his dad just over two years ago. I actually booked a cow elk hunt from information I gathered from that thread. I have wondered what ever became of him.

I am truly sorry that many customers of his had bad ends to their projects, but I am more sorry for the man here who has lost everything.

I didn’t know the man but Bill helped me....I wish I could have helped him.

Ted

577,

I'm with you here, it is a disgrace the way he treated you, and there is no excuse for it.
He showed no respect for you or your property. Maybe he did have personal problems, but that rust didn't happen overnight...pure neglect.

I would go nuts too. BTW, I can't believe that he had the balls to return it to you in that condition....shows how much respect he had for you and for himself.
I bet that you would have felt better if he just lied and told you that it was stolen from his car, etc...

Another thing...some of his defenders/supporters here are forgetting the fact that this project was meant for YOUR SON and not you, so it's not just a monetary loss, but a sentimental one.

Anyway, good luck and hopefully it can be repaired.

An Update:

My barreled action is at my father's who has all of my guns in storage. He had a medical emergency that had him in the hospital for a number of days, but he is out now and the barreled action is on its way to Roger Farrel in Georgia.

When I have more to update, I will be sure to post it.

I have not been on much due to work and family obligations, so if I don't post an update often, forgive me; I will as soon as possible.

Thanks for the update....I'm sure if anyone can make this right, Roger can.

I am looking forward to Roger's report. I really hope and believe that he will say that it is not nearly as bad as it looks.

I recently ran a rust prevention test and found that the poorer performing oils allowed bare metal to rust nearly as bad as your barreled action after only 14 hours in the rain. I was shocked!

All:

I just got an email from Roger.

The rust is superficial and can be fixed without a lot of work. I was worried about the 1/4 rib, but this is glorious news!

Excellent news.

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
All:

I just got an email from Roger.

The rust is superficial and can be fixed without a lot of work. I was worried about the 1/4 rib, but this is glorious news!

Paul,

Really good to hear that bit of news! When you have a chance would like to hear your plans for finishing up the rifle!

Best,

Jim