Acidental Disccharge Likely

how about anyone dumbenoughto drop a loaded gun desevers what he gets.

I've carried a Remington Model 700 ADL for more than 30 years. Never had a single problem. Not one.This rifle has been used in something like 15 states and has been to Africa 5 times and Canada twice.

There is more than just a make and model of firearm to creating accidental discharges. One of the first things they told me when I started a military career was that it takes at violation of at least 2 of the 4 basic rules of firearm use to create an accidental or negligent discharge.

In case you never served, the 4 rules are:

1) Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.

2) Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.

3) Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

4) Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

So,if you had an accidental discharge, whose fault is it? Your's or Remington's. Mymoney is that you made it happen.

Another Douchebag Lawyer

My Uncle had a Remington that you could put on safety and pull the trigger and the gun would go off!

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
My Uncle had a Remington that you could put on safety and pull the trigger and the gun would go off!

So what did he do about it?

he must not have pointed it at Graybird...

Rich

I just tuned the trigger on a 700 for a friend's son. After backing it down to the point where you can make it go off with impact or slamming the bolt, you just move it back up to the point where you cannot. How hard is that? A plastic/rubber mallet and half an hour of pretty simple work and the gun is pretty well fool proof.

I do not understand this being a problem at all.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
My Uncle had a Remington that you could put on safety and pull the trigger and the gun would go off!

Before or after the Golden Screwdriver treatment?

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
My Uncle had a Remington that you could put on safety and pull the trigger and the gun would go off!

So what did he do about it?

I have no clue! I remember distinctly one day while hunting he was griping about the gun. Said look here, I'll show you. Proceeded to chamber a round, put on safety and pulled the trigger and the gun went !!!

I honestly don't know if he still has the rifle or decided to get rid of it. Maybe I'll ask him at Thanksgiving, which is the only time I see him each year.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
he must not have pointed it at Graybird...

Rich

Nope! Safety first Rich!!!

Remington is well known, documented and sued over "ADL's"...if you're interested do a search and read. It will tell you the reasons the Rem trigger is prone to "ADL's".

I've had two "ADL'S"...

The first on a 25-06 BDL Varminter on the bench...it fired when I flipped off the safety...and YES I did all the "tests" prior to loading...without any problems...including sqeezing the trigger, releasing it and flipping off the safety.

The second was on my second Rem 25-06 Sendero some 30 odd years later...and the last Rem I will buy other than a used one for a receiver donor and it gets an aftermarket trigger first thing and even those will release if set too light.

I was expecting the second "ADL" so it wasn't a surprise.

I replaced both triggers with Canjar's.

Anyone dumbenough to post what you posted Smale, deserves what HE gets...what about the person that might get shot from the accidental dropping...would they deserve what they got??...accidents happen...climb down off your soapbox. I don't know anyone who has hunted hard in rough country, in rain/snow slick conditions that hasn't dropped a shooter at some time...except the "perfect ones".

A rifle, no matter what brand, is a mechanical device and subject to failures.

Luck

Just for the record. My Uncle's gun was also a 25-06!!! Hmmm?

My remington in 25-06 fired upon releasing the safety once. Hmmm?

I haven't read all the threads on the subject--Is there a fix for this potential problem?

quote:

Originally posted by slim buttes:
My remington in 25-06 fired upon releasing the safety once. Hmmm?

I haven't read all the threads on the subject--Is there a fix for this potential problem?

If it were mine, I'd be installing a new trigger immediately.....I'd like to just trade it but that's simply criminal IMO to trade a known dangerous gun.

You can also mail the gun to Remington for repairs.....but make sure you check it upon return....Seems folks have posted disappointment in their repairs.

I'm seriously considering three pos safetys for mine and I've had no issues with them at all.

well pal like you said accidents do happen. More times then not to idiots though and rarely to a safe gun handler. People are shot all the time by guys who claim they though there gun was unloaded too. There shot by hunters that swore they were a deer and by many other senerios. Maybe we should just ban all guns. Just the other day while adjusting my weatherby varguard trigger i got carried away and had it firing when the bolt closed. Luckily i was intelegent enough not to have ammo in it. I guess we should jump down weatherbys throat too becase they make a trigger that can be ajusted to a dangerous point. What this whole thing is is another atempt from the antis at bringing down a major gun manufacture and all your doing is fueling the fire. Weve allready got smith and ruger and most other handgun manufactures putting on rediculous safety systems that arent needed and that add to the cost of a gun, make them more awkward to use and make the less reliable. Why? because a couple dumb asses dont practice good safe gun handling. So the rest of us pay for a couple idiots mistakes. Id about bet a dime to a dollar that any accidental discharge of a rem rifle was caused by some idiot fooling with the trigger ajustments that he had no clue how to do properly. Ive been around 700 rems for 40 years and have owned more of them then all the other brands combined and have yet to have one go off without my finger on the trigger. To me its about like someone having a blow out on a tire on there car and getting killed and then trying to get every tire ever made by that manufacture recalled because there made of rubber and rubber can fail.

Its funny too that reminton rifles with that trigger system have dominated bench rest competiton for years and have been taken down to onces by COMPETANT gunsmiths and ive yet to hear of an accidental discharge by one one line and im sure if it was happening theyd be banned from competion in a heartbeat. Sad day as all this crap is going to net us is redundant safetys an 10 lb triggers so that a few idiots wont shoot themselves and bottom line is they probably will anyway and the only thing this may cure is keeping remington from getting sued by some ambulance chaser. Yup there mechanical devices and are subject to failure just like any other brand and not idiot proof. As a matter of fact remington has sold thousands of rifles to idiots. If they hadnt this wouldnt even be happening. Ive got a suggestion for you if you own one. Its unsafe and your kid may be killed by it so box it up and send it to me and maybe ill shoot myself down off this soapbox!

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Remington is well known, documented and sued over "ADL's"...if you're interested do a search and read. It will tell you the reasons the Rem trigger is prone to "ADL's".

I've had two "ADL'S"...

The first on a 25-06 BDL Varminter on the bench...it fired when I flipped off the safety...and YES I did all the "tests" prior to loading...without any problems...including sqeezing the trigger, releasing it and flipping off the safety.

The second was on my second Rem 25-06 Sendero some 30 odd years later...and the last Rem I will buy other than a used one for a receiver donor and it gets an aftermarket trigger first thing and even those will release if set too light.

I was expecting the second "ADL" so it wasn't a surprise.

I replaced both triggers with Canjar's.

Anyone dumbenough to post what you posted Smale, deserves what HE gets...what about the person that might get shot from the accidental dropping...would they deserve what they got??...accidents happen...climb down off your soapbox. I don't know anyone who has hunted hard in rough country, in rain/snow slick conditions that hasn't dropped a shooter at some time...except the "perfect ones".

A rifle, no matter what brand, is a mechanical device and subject to failures.

Luck

I am buying defective Remingtons.Get rid of them while you still have a chance.Even if it has not done this I will still give you $50.00.Thats the kind of guy I am!!!!!

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the accuracy of a Rem in benchrest competition, it has to do with one problem...a defective trigger mechanism...go read all the other posts concerning Remingtons triggers and the things that have been happening for the past 40-50 years that I know of...

The absence of fault(as proved in a court of law) doesn't mean that fault is absent!!!!!! and going ballistic on some dumb ass doesn't solve the problem...you're arguing from a faulty position with faulty proofs and statements that have nothing at all to do with the simple facts and making assuptions you know nothing about...Socrates would just love to get at you.

It doesn't matter that gunsmiths have been making good money "fixing" Remionton trigger problems for all those years...that in itself should tell you something...and aftermarket trigger makers also.

The facts are that the Remington trigger has a problem, Remington has known about it for years, they have lots of high dollar lawyers that can chew up and swallow some poor shmuck that tries to sue, Remington has those lawyers on staff to keep them from paying any damages and is is a bottom line decision. Period

All the rest of the arguments and blamings are just so much BS.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
Luckily i was intelegent enough not to have ammo in it.

Too bad you're not intelligent enough to spell the word.

Your grammer isn't too hot either.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
Luckily i was intelegent enough not to have ammo in it.

Too bad you're not intelligent enough to spell the word.

Your grammer isn't too hot either.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Speaking of spelling, grammar is spelled with an a.

Somewhere in the deep dark reaches of my mind, I remember being told that the Timney trigger is based on the Remington 700 trigger. Any truth to that, and if so, why is the Timney a safe option, assuming it is?

quote:

Originally posted by cobra:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
Luckily i was intelegent enough not to have ammo in it.

Too bad you're not intelligent enough to spell the word.

Your grammer isn't too hot either.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Speaking of spelling, grammar is spelled with an a.

oops!

Now, you kids play nicely!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

I'm seriously considering three pos safetys for mine and I've had no issues with them at all.[/QUOTE]

V-dog, Are you considering the 3-position safety in Brownell's catalogue? (The M-70 style?) I was looking at those myself. Do you have any installed? I need one for a M-700 Mountain rifle. Love the rifle but I don't trust it.

Yes....that's the one....from Brownells.....

I've never installed one nor have I ever seen one installed.....I've installed a couple dozen Dakotas on M-98 Mausers so feel comfortable doing the Remingtons too.....

The frustrating thing is the cost....especially when my guns have never shown a trace of issues.....all of them from the '60s

quote:

I need one for a M-700 Mountain rifle. Love the rifle but I don't trust it.

After this event with nation wide coverage I'll bet that Brownells will be overwhelmed with orders.....getting one might be nearly impossible!

Now the spelling police are out. Im a shooter not a english student. Maybe you should spent a little more time at the range and a little less doing grammer checks on other peoples posts. Woops i misspelled grammer after even being told it was spelled wrong. Best put me in the corner with a dunce cap on.

never did say it had anything whatsover to do with accuracy. What i posted was that if the trigger mechinism was unsafe im sure it wouldnt be allowed to be brought to the line in any formal competition and i doubt it would be the primary sniper rifle our military uses as i doubt a sniper would keep one around long if it went off when he flipped the safey off or dropped it. I guess ive never heard that gunsmiths have made tons of money making remington triggers safe. Im sure they probably ajust more of them then any other but thats because 700s sell two to one over any other brand with the possible exception of ruger. I grew up in a differnt place and mind then alot of you here. Our parents didnt walk us to school or put bike helmets on us to ride bikes or pads on us to play sports. The first thing we were taught when it came to guns was safety. then at age 12 or even younger we were given guns and were never told we couldnt walk out in the woods and shoot them and amazingly we lived through it all and when we were dumb enough to screw up our fathers would kick us in the ass not hire a lawyer to suit someone for something as silly as this. Whats going to come of this? My bet is remington is going to make there triggers unajustable at least. Possibly add new saftey features that are redundant and add a 100 bucks to the price of a gun to pay for this and to pay for defending this law suit so you know whos going to pay for this in the long run? US! When remington does this so will other manufactures and when rems prices go up so will theres. I glad im an old fart and have enough good old remingtons to get buy with so i dont have to buy one with a 10lb trigger and two safteys!

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the accuracy of a Rem in benchrest competition, it has to do with one problem...a defective trigger mechanism...go read all the other posts concerning Remingtons triggers and the things that have been happening for the past 40-50 years that I know of...

The absence of fault(as proved in a court of law) doesn't mean that fault is absent!!!!!! and going ballistic on some dumb ass doesn't solve the problem...you're arguing from a faulty position with faulty proofs and statements that have nothing at all to do with the simple facts and making assuptions you know nothing about...Socrates would just love to get at you.

It doesn't matter that gunsmiths have been making good money "fixing" Remionton trigger problems for all those years...that in itself should tell you something...and aftermarket trigger makers also.

The facts are that the Remington trigger has a problem, Remington has known about it for years, they have lots of high dollar lawyers that can chew up and swallow some poor shmuck that tries to sue, Remington has those lawyers on staff to keep them from paying any damages and is is a bottom line decision. Period

All the rest of the arguments and blamings are just so much BS.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
Best put me in the corner with a dunce cap on.

Hey what do ya know, an "intelligent" post @ last.

Belk keeps stressing the 6 mile circle of danger.

Seems to me a good argument to ban guns or develop a bullet with very short range or perhaps limit all shooting to shotgun. From what Belk is stressing is appears shooters are pointing loaded guns all over the place.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Belk keeps stressing the 6 mile circle of danger.

Seems to me a good argument to ban guns or develop a bullet with very short range or perhaps limit all shooting to shotgun. From what Belk is stressing is appears shooters are pointing loaded guns all over the place.

Belk (at least it seems to me) is simply a paid beligerent.....his posts rotate about extremely unlikely scenarios and extremely unusual events.

It's one thing to say what could possibly happen.....totally another to discuss the likely possibilities.

His credibility with me is so low that I put him on "ignore".....he's not worth reading IMO!

In my world an accidental discharge (AD) and a negligent discharge (ND) are two very different animals. In the former, a mechanical failure is the cause. In the latter and much more common instance, a shooter failure is at fault.

In the early 90s I was a sniper instructor for the military. During that time, we occasionally competed in NRA "across the course" matches with our M24s and iron sights (the issued Redfield Palma). The M24 is based on the Remington 700 and, I believe, at the time these all came from their custom shop.

In one such competition, during a rapid fire string, I chambered a round and closed the bolt. The weapon fired as soon as the bolt was fully closed.

My M24 had a right hand action, I am a left handed shooter and my right hand was in a shooting glove under the forend with my right arm wrapped in a sling. Reaching over the rifle with my left hand to manipulate the bolt, it was physically impossible to touch the trigger. A number of others at the match witnessed this happen because they enjoyed gathering behind me to watch this "wrong handed" shooter get off a rapid fire string in the alotted time (no need to talk about my scores). All present (civilian high masters and other instructors) declared this an accidental discharge, much to my relief. An ND would have resulted in a relief for cause from the sniper committee.

I completed the rest of the match without further incident.

This was the one an only time that what we called a slam fire happened to me or any other instructor during my four year tenure. However, on rare occasions this happened with students (hence we had already coined the "slam fire" name for it). Safe weapons handling prevented any injuries as all AD's were sent down range.

I still like the 700 and currently own two, one since the mid 1980s, and have had no issues. But... that one mishap is always in my mind as I handle any gun.

The only sure fix, at least on the gun part of the equation, is the safety does not retract the firing pin and the trigger was a fully enlcosed trigger mechanism that could not be entered by the shooter or guns smith. In addition very large sear engagement and strong trigger return piece.

Throw all Belk's bullshit plus all the support he gets into the equation along with what has happened with triggers over the past years and the trigger as described above will be what we get on rifles.

Seriously folks.....What would it cost to install a three position safety and trigger like many other company's have....Savage, Winchester, Ruger and maybe more that I'm not aware of.....

It would cost Remington less than what it does to develop crap like their cheapish bolt rifles.....is it the M-710?.....what ever it is...

Remington built a lot of Eddystones during WWI and all with three pos safetys and then after the war continued making them in a slightly modified form.....and then walked away from that feature.

I fully agree that Remington can be accused of accidental discharges as one should not have to load or unload the rifle on the fire position!.....but the rifle pointed at another human at the time cannot be blamed on Remington.

We have two distinct errors here. Well, at least that's the way I see it!

But an M70 typesafety could still allow the gun to fire when the safety is released.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
But an M70 typesafety could still allow the gun to fire when the safety is released.

I don't see the thread claiming M-70s to be unsafe.....

At least you can load and unload them on the safe position....

To your point.....any firearm can fail.....

quote:

Remington built a lot of Eddystones during WWI and all with three pos safetys and then after the war continued making them in a slightly modified form.....and then walked away from that feature.

m1917 p14 model 30 and 30-s

the safty on these is great but it is not 3 position it positivly disengages the firing pin but it also locks the bolt. two positions on bolt locked or off bolt unlocked. I have one on my bench working on a retro fit to change the great safty to alow you to open the bolt on safe on demand.

We had two Mod. 70's discharge when the safety was taken off the last time I was in Africa, last April. I have had a Howa do it. If you trust a safety completely you are a fool. Even the Blaser and the Krieghoff can discharge when taking the safety off if the trigger is depressed at the right moment. I think they are the best but not completely idiot proof. I have a lot of Remingtons (18) and have never had it happen. Muzzle control is the answer. I don't carry a round in the chamber on a bolt gun and don't like it in a double except the Krieghoff. The African carry scares me......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
But an M70 typesafety could still allow the gun to fire when the safety is released.

I don't see the thread claiming M-70s to be unsafe.....

At least you can load and unload them on the safe position....

To your point.....any firearm can fail.....

That is true. However, any safety that retracts the firing pin has the potential problem. You only need the trigger piece to not properly realign as the safety is released then BANG.

Of course where the M70 is different is not having adjustment for sear engagement so the average bloke won't have a go it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FOOBAR:
The absence of fault(as proved in a court of law) doesn't mean that fault is absent!!!!!! and going ballistic on some dumb ass doesn't solve the problem...you're arguing from a faulty position with faulty proofs and statements that have nothing at all to do with the simple facts and making assuptions you know nothing about...Socrates would just love to get at you./QUOTE]

Socrates... and grammar teacher.

I personally have never cared for the Remington safety and have always swapped them out BUT because people do that shouldn't necessarily take the manufacturer out of the loop. The simple fact is Remington has known about these issues for years and has had plenty of time to address them. Its quite surprising that this firestorm has not hit them earlier. As large as they are and knowing how people use (or abuse) todays judicial system, their attorneys should have been on this years ago. They had plenty of time to "idiot proof" their design. Now of course, that doesn't compensate for the "idiot" in the gun owner scenarios so please refrain from the competant gun handling remarks.