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Yesterday I received the pre-64 Winch. model 70 .30-06 that I bid on at Auctionarms.com. It's a standard grade made in 1959. I went through it pretty good last night. It needed a good cleaning both inside and out. There was sort of a brown sticky film on much of the metal. I'm betting it's the remnants of WD-40, but whatever it was, it wasn't very hard to remove with solvent. I realize the rifle is 45 years old and it's condition was advertised on the auction, yet my initial emotion when I first examined it was that of dissappointment. The fit and finish, taking into account the years of use, wasn't as good as I expected. The checkering was pretty awful really. There are quite a few tooling marks on the receiver and the bolt doesn't operate particularly smooth. On a positive note, however, the trigger felt really good. This is the first pre-64 I've handled. Maybe my expectations were simply too high. All I know about them is what I've read about them on internet forums and in magazines. I guess I thought they were pretty much the Holy Grail of rifles. From a pure fit and finish standpoint, my Sakos are much nicer. However, I didn't buy this rifle to display it on my wall. I bought it with the intention of making it my primary hunting rifle and I'm really looking forward to using it in the field. As I examined and fiddled with it further last night I remembered why I really bought it, because of it's features: the claw extractor, the fixed ejector, the three position safety, the field strippable bolt and so on. I'm really looking forward to getting it out on the range with some good handloads. If it shoots and functions well, I won't care how it looks. | ||
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Well, we'll be awaiting with great trepidation your "range report." I'm sure it'll go something like this: "I was disappointed, it did not shoot as well as my sako or my 700s." jorge | |||
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The pre 64 m 70s are not pretty boy ,fancy,glitery rifles they are hunting rifles. I didnt buy mine from seeing a picture on a internet auction .You cant tell the condition of a rifle from a picture. I got mine at a gun show and a gun shop where I could realy see the condition. I stole one for $245. I like the simple finish look of them. The older ones had better checkering patterns I think the newer ones had smaller panels, I have a 1953featherwight and a 1949 standard. The bolts on mine operate smooth tight and solid. The follower rubbing might make it seem not smooth. Your right its not a wall hanger its a field gun  | |||
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DeltaHunter, the model 70s fit & finish began to decline after the mid to late 50s. Your rifle falls in that range. All the late rifles aren't that way, it's sort of a crap shoot. Find one older than yours by 6 years or so and it may look more like what you were expecting. I just looked at a pre 64 in 300 Win mag at Cabela's. Expensive, because there weren't many made. It was utt bugly. The stock was made out of about the cheapest grade of walnut you can imagine. And not made too well. A "hardwood stock" would not be much worse. Some collector will be the proud owner of that one. On the other hand, your rifle will probably shoot OK. You can't get hurt much if you bought it right. Consider it the begining of an education on Model 70s. | |||
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This thread makes you appreciate the new Model 70's. They have the same features, some improvements, and if you purchase carefully, you can find some darn high quality. You can get burnt occasionally, but the same happens with the old 70's and new 700's and 77's. It seems to me that the pre-64 70's are a little over-hyped. They do have awesome history and heritage, though, and that can be worth a lot of money. In fact, appreciation for history and heritage is why I can't get excited by many new design rifles. Browning A-bolts, for example. They are fine, fine rifles, but they just don't have any heritage. Maybe in 50 years I will value them more. Nah - at age 104 I'll have little interest for anything but women. | |||
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the best year Win. had IMO was 1953 with the pre 64, that was a good year for whatever reason...I did notice a decline after that with some rifles, but buying M-70s has always been a hands on purchase..But anything that's wrong with one can easily be repaired or improved upon...It still has features the put it ahead of the Sakos in my opinnion..Sako also went into a tail spin when the departed from the wonderful Rhaamakii Series, and the L series rifles, after that I had no use for them. Those old Sakos were the only push feed rifle I liked and even then I never liked the stock designed and usually re stocked them..Today I only have one round top L-461, customed stocked and barreled in 6x45 caliber that weighs 5.5 lbs and looks like a Rigby English Rifle..nice little gun, and it has a model 70 3 position safty custom made out of a piece of bull barrel, by a good friend who passed away some time back. | |||
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DeltaHunter, I'm sure the rifle will be great for your desired hunting purposes. Hopefully it was carried a lot more than it was shot. I have been able to get all of my Pre-64 M70's to shoot to 1 MOA or less with hunting bullets. Some rifles have taken more load development than others, but they all have gotten there. I'm sorry to hear that you were dissappointe in the fit and finish of the rifle. It sounds like yours was just well used is all. I have quite a few Pre-64 M70's in many different calibers (including 5 in 30-06) and I have found the fit and finish to be excellent. I would suggest you go to a gun show or somewhere where you can handle and see first hand a Pre-64 M70 in top condition before you let one rifle cloud your view on the entire bunch. Tim | |||
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I think you got a good rifle. Finish removing the lube that has dried in the action over the last 40 years, and once it's really clean, grease the locking lugs, anti-bind rib, raceways and the camming surfaces in the bolt shroud. Then dry-fire it several hundred times over the course of a week. These two things should slick it up quite a bit. Then seat any good 180-gr. bullet over 55 grs. of IMR 4350 and zero for 200 yards. From there it's up to you. Post back and let us know how it works out. Okie John. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Some of them are indeed better than others, but even the worst of them beats the today's off-the-shelf "disappointments"...... AD | ||
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I recently acquired a '57 M70 in 300 H&H. Beautiful fiddle back stock, action slick as glass and a good shooter, too. I also have a '53 that is with Danny Pedersen having the shot out bbl rebored to 9.3x64. The '57 has much better wood and is finished just as well. I really like these old rifles--they just feel right. Bob | |||
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I'm torn. A friend has a '55 Supergrade in .30-'06, and it's a shooter. Metalwork is flawless, bolt is smooth, safety is positive, but doesn't let off loudly enough to scare game, and the trigger is great. Inletting of the stock is nice, and on the Supergrade, at least, the checkering is also nice. I thought recently about buying one, but decided not to. Things I didn't like included stock design. It's very heavy, and has a larger drop at heel than I need (scope, rather than open sights are my primary sighting tool these days), and the drop guarantees more muzzle jump and cheekbone distress. Except for the romance of a "pre-64," I prefer the current Classic design. While the worksmanship is not up to the level of the older rifles, it's good enough, and the superior gas-handling on the newer rifle puts it over the top for me. The stocks are better, too, I think. Jaywalker | |||
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I have 16 pre-64 Model 70's, and 4 new "pre-64 actioned" rifles. Without exception, the actions are MUCH smoother on the original pre-64's; however, accuracy is about the same on all the guns. The fit & finish on my newest Super Grade .25-06 is really disappointing, but like I said, it's a good shooter. I really love all the Model 70's, old and new. | |||
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Quote: Hey DeltaHunter, Darn shame about the disappointment, but yes our mental image of something often becomes distorted with anticipation. Then a good dose of reality slaps us back into the present. Worn checkering - it might be due to a lot of handling, but no, they sure weren't made to perfection back in Pre-64, irregardless of the foolishness you may have heard. Tooling marks sounds right in line. However, the sticky Bolt is interesting to me. That really would have surprised me too on a rifle 45 years old - of any make. The Winchester folks did make a nice, easily adjustable trigger. Darn shame it allows a lot of trash and crud to get in it because it has no side plates. But, it is easy to clean. ... Quote: Ah yes, sucked in by the guys who think the Pre-64s were ALL TOTALLY PERFECT. Just isn't the way it was back then. However, you just got a valuable Education. "...Holy Grail of rifles" ... Quote: I totally agree! Some folks get all caught up in "pretty" and deride accuracy to the point you wonder if they really understand what a firearm is supposed to do. Obviously you will be using Cartridge Components recently made. Here is another dose of reality for you: If your Pre-64 will shoot in the 4s-6s you have every right to be TOTALLY EXTATIC. That is because you have gotten one of the very few Pre-64 M70s that will do it. If it shoots in the 7s-10s, you should be quite happy. If it shoots in the 1.25" - 2" range, it really wouldn't surprise "me". That will kill most nearly all Big Game a person is apt to hunt. Don't let it grind on your confidence though, cause there is always someone ready to buy a Pre-64 M70. Not me, but plenty of people would take it off your hands. ... Anyway, I wish you the best of luck, small groups and a long string of one-shot kills. Speaking of that, how well did that rag M70 shoot?!?!?!  | |||
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I think my expectations as far as how this rifle would look were simply unrealistic. But I will say, the checkering is not really worn that much, it just wasn't cut very well, quite sloppy looking around the borders. I guess that just took me aback when I first examined it. Now that I've had it a few days, though, I'm liking it more and more. It fits me really well. The bolt is working a lot smoother after thoroughly cleaning all that brown gunk out of every nook and cranny. The bore was fouled, but it cleaned up without too much effort. It'll be another 2 or 3 weeks at least and possibly longer before I get a chance to take it to the range. I'll be perfectly happy if it shoots 2" groups or less. I've pretty much gotten over the obsession to have a rifle that shoots 1/2 MOA, it just isn't necessary for my kind of hunting. Of course, I'd prefer that it shoot tiny little groups (I've got a couple rifles that will), but that's not why I bought this rifle. One of my favorite rifles is my 7.65mm Arg. Mauser. I'm lucky to get 3 to 4" groups with it, but I really enjoy using it nevertheless. Anyway, I don't think I'll become a "Model 70 or nothing" kind of guy, but I'm quite certain this will not be my last one either. Let the education begin. | |||
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Hot Core, et al, this is what an "out of the box" Model 70 shot for me and I didn't have to worry about the bolt handle falling off or the safety malfunctioning. It's a 375 H&H with hand loaded 300gr Swift A Frames. Group measured 3/8" I've NEVER had a pre-64 shoot over 1" groups although one particular pre-64 in 300 Win mag is giving me fits AFTER I had the stock reworked ( it was a custom stock for a much taller individual so I had the LOP reduced the cheekpiece reduced and the forend reshaped). jorge  | |||
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Quote: Hey DeltaHunter, Yes, that happened on a lot of them straight from the "Holy Grail" Pre-64 factory. Other than looking a bit sloppy, it won't hurt a thing. It will still "Hunt" just fine. It is interesting to see your take on the "reality" of a Pre-64. Quote: Good for you. That sticky bolt just didn't make good sense. Probably old dried WD40. Had a buddy drop by with a "pristine" used M700ADL a month or so back wanting me to "over-see" his Trigger Adjustment. Couldn't get it done because it looked like osmeone had hosed it down with WD 40 "inside" that TOTALLY SAFE and excellently designed Trigger Assembly. He was going to have to take ithome and "soak" the gunk out of it before he could get it really fine tuned. So, it happens to all of them. Quote: With a bit of luck using recently made components, I believe it will be "more than accurate enough" for Hunting. Quote: Well, the old 7.65Arg. One of my buddies got one back when they were right at $20 out of a trash can full of them. He and I also had a lot of fun messing with it. I suppose you know you can "Form Cases" for it from 30-06. He even made some from 308Wins and had to blow them out a bit. They are a bit "short" in the overall length, but they worked for him - and no trimming. Quote: Absolutely an excellent attitude about it. The only way to really know about the various rifles, their positives and their minuses, is to own one and use it. Otherwise, someone is apt to try and sell you the "Holy Grail" of rifles. Hang in there DeltaHunter, it will all be fine in the end. Well...., if you like "Rusted Blue" and "Termite Ridden" stocks. | |||
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Hey Jorge, That sure is an outstanding group. Be careful showing it around on this thread cause there are some people here who seem to think "paper accuracy" doesn't mean a thing. Of course, you and I know they are full-of-beans. ... Huuummm, Any chance a guy was next to you with a M700 and he shot that group over onto your target without you knowing it? | |||
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Quote: Hey AD, If you happen to read this closely, "you" can learn something: 1. Unrequested advice is normally only important to the fool running his mouth giving it. 2. In order for a person to "heed" another person's advice, it must be either logical or the person receiving it "must respect" the giver enough to accept it. | |||
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Hotcore...???? no comprende senior, what the heck your post about? | |||
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Quote: Hey GSP7, Which post, or portion of a post, are you asking about? | |||
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So Hot Core, since you seem so all-knowing and experienced, tell us about your hunting and rifle prowess. So far all I've ever seen from you is comparable to stuff I've scraped off the bottom of my shoes from time to time. I'm sure the guy next to me was a Weatherby shooter. We see very few 700s at my club sorry. jorge | |||
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Jorge, Those comments were out of line, IMO. Hot Core's comments have been to the point, and some have been amusing and non-inflamatory, also IMO. He was as clearly joking as I've seen any comments, and politeness mandates recognition of that, or at least silence. If I'm missing your joke, I apologize. I'd sure hate to see AR get as nasty as 24-Hour. Jaywalker | |||
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JW:If you go back and read his inital posting, his usual sniping started. I just responded in kind with what I though was a very tongue in cheek comment regarding my disdain for 700s, nothing more. as predicted, it got worse as evidenced by him being taken to task by other posters. It's typical forum behavior from folks who have insecurities I imagine, but I've seen it much worse here at times. I was sort of joking I suppose but my comments were specific and direct. jorge | |||
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Just picked up a pre64 featherweight .308 This one was built in 1953. I bought it for a whopping total of 465.00 dollars so I was thinking I might just use the action. But my first trip to the range changed that Idea pronto. SHE Shoots ! I wish i could track down the guy I bought it from at the gun show, He had another. He bought the pair from a husband and wife, I got his, hers has the stock cut. He was asking 435.00.for hers. I would offer my remington model 7 laminate blue and 50 bucks, and keep one of the mdl 70s as a 308 and use the other as an action. My other Pre 64 fwght is a .270 neither is a collctable so I can modify with out commiting blashamy. I sent the .270 to pac nor and It will have a match grade cryo barrel made to the origional contoor, nad the action trued. I think I will get a rimrock dessert cammo stock for it...tj3006 | |||
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| <allen day> |
The heck you say! AD | ||
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Last night I mounted a 3-9x40 Zeiss Conquest on the 70. I used low Talley fixed rings. I don't swap scopes often, so I saw no need for the QD's. I had to re-tap one of the base screw holes since it was sort of stripped. To do this I used the oversize 6-48 tap and screw kit that Brownells sells. It worked great. The scope looks okay on the rifle, but the Conquest is a little large on the ocular end, especially with that rubber protective ring around it. The bolt handle just barely clears the scope. In fact, it's too close to use the Butler Creek flip-up scope cover on it. So, I may go with the removable Bikini type cover, which I'm not too crazy about, or I may just end up putting a scope with a smaller eyepiece on it, maybe a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x36 or something similar. Any suggestions? Anyway, I've got all my reloading components on hand (this will be the first time I've used Lapua brass) and my dies should be here in a day or two. I'm really looking forward to putting some rounds through it. | |||
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Quote: Hey Jorge, Apparently from the "tone" of your post,you can "hand it out" better than you can "take it". I'll do my best to avoid what I consider "non-malicious humor" with you in the future. From your picture, I really thought you were a seasoned military man - sorry for the mistake on my part. ... I've had a good many Pre-64 M70s and they are just not what I like. I do have all kinds of firearms, but I don't consider it good manners to "brag" about my hunting prowess. In fact, I addressed this on a previous thread located on the Gunsmithing Board which I believe you were posting in. But, I could have that confused. Anyway, I leave the "braggart" posts for others to make. My current "favorite" hunting rifles are from AMT, Marlin, Remington and Weatherby. I even like the "current" crop of Stainless and Synthetic M70s, but just don't have one at the moment to wring out. I've been trying to swap a rather classy shotgun for a "Tooley Rifle" for quite awhile now. I talk to the owner about once a month and we discuss it maybe every 3rd call. Maybe I'll get it and then again, maybe not. This rifle had the stock painted by the owner and it looks like it was done with a "Pine top". Sure has no chance at all of "prettying" a Deer to death, but it should be amazingly accurate having been made by Dave. Since it was made with "accuracy" in mind, a M700 receiver and the excellently designed, TOTALLY SAFE, factory trigger was used and tuned.... It just dosen't bother me at all if anyone else likes a particular rifle that I don't like for whatever the reasons. I don't see where my pointing out what "I don't like" about those particular rifles seems to cause some folks such gut wrenching anguish. As you can see from DeltaHunter's posts, he got what is simply a typical Pre-64 M70. He realizes it certainly dosen't live up to the "Holy Grail" status he "had been lead to believe" it would be. Just the way it is. ... Hey Jaywalker, Thank you Sir! | |||
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Quote: Hey DeltaHunter, I also prefer a scope mounted as low as possible, but the slightly higher Rings might cure this problem. However, before you commit to them, look closely at the stock and see if it will allow you to use them. Obviously some of my Pre-64 M70 experience irritates a few folks. I know of no other way to say this than the ones I had, had the stock primarily shaped for use with Iron Sights. If that is the situation on yours, and if you attempt to use Taller Rings, you "might" end up with a cheek alignment issue. On the other hand, they may work fine for you. Mount the rifle with your eyes closed and snug up to it as normal. Then open your eyes and see where the scope is in relation to you. Maybe slightly Higher will work. Walked up to a guy at the Range one day who had a custom built rifle. I'd noticed he was shooting a string of 1-hole groups and wanted to see what he had. First thing that caught my attention was a SUPER HIGH set of Rings holding a HUGE NightForce scope. I asked him if he had any problems with eye alignment. He smiled and said, "Here,sit down and take a look.", as he stood up. No problem at all. The "Stock" design allowed proper eye alignment. But, I feel sure the Pre-64 M70s I had, all had stocks cut for Iron Sights. That is a fine Scope you have for it. Surely one of the "Holy Grail" worshipers can suggest something better than I did. Maybe that is one of the reasons they always seem to recommend a "tiny" scope. | |||
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What can I say after that rebuke from Hot Core? I guess I just can't understand why one so dogmatically (and erroneously in this case) puts something down without basis. Good humor my ass, There has to be a reason why pre-64 Model 70s command the prices they do and it's not merely false value. Model 70s are Not the {sic} Holy Grail of rifles and those of us who happen to enjoy them know that. For example, IF you're dumb enough to mount a scope on a low comb 70 then wonder why you have alignment problems you blame the rifle. And yes quality and finish did drop off after the 1940s when compared to pre-war models but so what when you compare them to what's being manufactured today. I guess I'm just not that bright, I don't know what my being "seasoned" has to do with this thread, but I think it proves my point that he has to disparage in order to put a point across. I don't think I'll lie awake tonight after that put down. After all, we're all brave behind the protection of the internet and made up names. jorge | |||
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Jorge ... Maybe hotcores wife kicked him out of the house so he is testy. I dont get his posts either. Maybe he is just being sarcastic and trying to be funny???? Thats what these are for . Who knows ? Remington uses a pipe for a reciever. I use pipes for sticking in the ground and holding my fence up... | |||
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DeltaHunter, You have to use medium rings with a pre64 M70. Even then the Conquest will be very close. | |||
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One of my pre64s a 1949, low rings worked with a leupold vari x III 3.5x10x40 and the bolt handle cleared . The other a 1953 took medium rings to clear with a vxI 2x7 | |||
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Well, there's no contact with the scope, but it's awfully close. I can live with it I guess for the time being. Sure wish the Butler Creek flip-up cover would work on it, though. I really don't want to mount the scope any higher. It's at a perfect height where it is now. I'll probably end up buying a different scope for it, something with a smaller eyepiece. | |||
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My '57 has the original rear sight and is pretty close there and on the bolt with a mid '70's M8 4X. I think the bell is 33mm. This scope looks good on a vintage rifle. Bob | |||
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For those of you that are not aware of MARINE CORPS history and tradition, a person who "attempts" to be a MARINE and who can't stand the intensity, isn't man enough to tough it out, or is tossed out of the CORPS, is refered to as a "Non-Hacker". Quote: Hey NON-HACKER, Surely it won't upset you and have you whinning for your MAMA if I agree with various portions of your post. TOTALLY AGREE with the above! Quote: Agree again. Back when I got "sucked-in" to getting a rag Pre-64 M70, I didn't know a whole lot about rifles. Learned a lot about them when I had those rifles and realized there "had to be" something better. Of course, even back then " I " was not so TOTALLY STUPID as to send a Stock off to a WoodSmith without "including" the action and barrel. How TOTALLY STUPID is that??? Quote: Amazingly enough, I agree again. Now, lets all think, were " ANY " Pre-64 M70s made AFTER the 1940s. Welllll......Duuuuuuuuuuhhh!!!! Quote: And, NON-HACKER, you happened to say EXACTLY what I've been thinking ever since you chose to begin attacking me. | |||
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Quote: GSP7...???? no comprende senior, what the heck your post about? | |||
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