I have found plenty of info on felt recoil with respect to various calibers. However, I have never shot anything along the lines of a 338 WM or a 375 H&H. Wondering if there is any info out there regarding felt recoil from shotguns. I have touched off some 2 3/8 oz turkey loads out of a Benelli SBE but have no idea how that compares to the above.

I know very little about shotgun loads, but I do know that I've shot some 3" high brass 12 gauge loads that hurt a lot more than my 375H&H.

There are some recoil calculators on the internet, that I assume, will work for shotgun shells too if you know the shell composition. Anyone with more experience than I know if that is actually true?

Stock shape has a lot to do with perceived recoil. My .375H&H is a CZ and has a tall and wide butt with a thick and squishy recoil. (and is rather heavy.) It really isn't unpleasant to shoot at all. If you can shoot a .30-06 you could shoot it quite easily. My Browning A-Bolt .243 has a very narrow butt and the recoil even from the .243 is kinda sharp. Not at all heavy, but the narrow (and rather hard) butt seems to be a rap in the shoulder.

So don't overlook stock design and fit when choosing a stock or evaluating recoil.

LWD

I find recoil from heavy SG loads to "feel" haevier than the recoil from my 404jeffery. Gun weight & recoil pad has a lot to do with "felt" recoil. If you can handle an 8# 06, you can learn to shoot a 9# 338wm or 375h&h.

Recoil from a shotgun with 2.25 turkey loads is far greater than a 375 with 300 grainers.

Approx recoil for a scoped 375 with 300s is in the neighborhood of 42 lbs.

Approx recoil for a 3.5 2.25oz Turkey load is 75-80lbs.

I pattern test Turkey guns a fair bit and i'll be the first to tell you a 3.5 high velocity turkey load is not real fun from light weight pump shotguns shooting from a benchrest.

I'm good for about 15 rounds during a session of turkey load testing. After that I start to get a headache and tender shoulder, I much prefer the better patterning 3" loads.


To match a turkey gun recoil, you'd probably have to compare carts like the 416 Weatherby Mag or 470 Nitro Express (Ouch! )

Good Luck

Reloader

I have found recoil to be very subjective.
Recoil velocity seems to bother me more than a round that actually pushes back harder.

For instance a Merkel in 500 Nitro seems worse to me than a 577 Searcy.

A couple of days ago I was shooting some 50BMG rifles, a Barrett M-82 and an Accuracy International, and I shot my friends sons 30-06 Savage 110. The 30-06 hurt my shoulder more than the 50's did.

quote:

Recoil velocity seems to bother me more than a round that actually pushes back harder.

Very true. I find my .375H&H much more pleasant to shoot than a buddy's .300 Wby, which is a karate chop to the shoulder and just obnoxious with muzzle blast, even though the calculated recoil is about the same.

LWD

A few years ago I installed a Limb Saver pad on my shotgun and I felt like it made a huge difference. Even with that I am usually only good for a few turkey loads just to make sure things are in order.

I probably need to just find someone that has some larger rifles that would let me shoot them.

quote:

To match a turkey gun recoil, you'd probably have to compare carts like the 416 Weatherby Mag or 470 Nitro Express (Ouch! )

Good Luck

Reloader

Maybe I am not such a lightweight afterall.

It has to do with "Recoil Impulse". I know of no way to explain that other than haevy and drawn out is less punishing than moderate and very fast.

LWD explains it quite well in this quote;

quote:

Very true. I find my .375H&H much more pleasant to shoot than a buddy's .300 Wby, which is a karate chop to the shoulder and just obnoxious with muzzle blast, even though the calculated recoil is about the same.

I'd also like to add the style of stock and recoil pad seem to make a huge percieved difference.

I know I worked up some loads for a light weight 300WSM. The gun had no recoil pad and no drop in the stock nor raised cheek. It just felt plain brutal, I was very surprised and I'd rather tinker with my Turkey loads than play with that rifle again.

Reloader

Regardless of the math taking into account gun weight, velocity, etc. most people find heavy shotgun loads to be noticably more painful than the 375.

Well my $ 0.0025 worth as I shoot them all .

Finally something I know a little about .

Shotguns weigh less than rifles in the calibers mentioned above . Also shotguns are shooting shot not slugs weight for weight there is a difference not a great deal but a little bit .

1 ounce = 437 grains , so a heavy turkey load with say 2.0 ounces is an 874 grain projectile generally propelled by something like Blue Dot !.
Now lets say one has a BDL 3 Upland bird gun with no real recoil pad and is foolish enough to shoot Turkey or Duck loads out of it !. OUCH baby Ouch . Kicks like a mule . Same is true with a slug even slightly more so , IF the weights were even that is . How ever I'm unaware of any 2 ounce slugs for shotguns .

Like has already been touched on blow the math off , it's like comparing apples too Oranges not a true comparison any way you look at it !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

my mossberg 835 with 2 oz. loads is pretty bad. i had a 300 win. mod. 70 xtr that was obnoxtious off the bench. my rsm 458 lott shot standing with 450 gr. tsx's at 2300 fps is pushy but not painful. my vanguard 300 wby. is not real bad from the bench. i believe stock design plays a large part in how you feel recoil.
james

I suppose if a person fired a LW single-barreled .470 Nitro from the bench it would be obnoxious as heck. BUT, most of the .470's I've shot were doubles, weighing in the vicinity of 11 to 11-1/2 lbs [+/- 1/2 lb], fired off-hand, with stocks having plenty of drop and a very little cast-off so one didn't have to tip his head sideways to look through the sights.

They were absolute pussycats of perceived recoil when compared to any single-barreled 12 gauge shotgun (pump, or recoil-operated auto) I've ever shot from the bench with any load.

Gas operated autos might be gentler than the recoil operated ones, but probably not more gentle than an 11-1/2 lb. .470 double rifle fired offhand.

I suspect respective weights, firing positions, and most of all, stock fit, are the major determinators of felt recoil.

338WM recoil isn't pleasant IMO, & have never shot one that is. It's sharp with sting.

375H&H can also hurt, the last one I shot (4 weeks back) was the old CZ hog-back model. Recoil was brutal. But saying that the Remington XCR was a peach, a push instead of that whack. Best shooting 375H&H I've fired.

The recoil feel can be greatly reduced with proper stock design and adequate recoil pads. My wife shoots a 338 WMag in a ruger 77, she shot my 340 weatherby and liked it better as the felt recoil was less.

The 375 H&H is learnable to shoot, in an adequate rifle, I can put 40 rounds in one sitting (benched) with no ill effects. I have a Sako 75 that is very comfortable to shoot.

Between the two, the 338 is a bit sharper of a kick, but much less recoil than the 375. I would compare shooting the 338 to a 12 ga light target load.

John

Most shot guns have little or no recoil pad .

I know every one is going to say What ?.

Sporting clays don't have a real rubber cushioning pad upland bird guns don't have much unless some body has put one on after market .

It still comes down to this ; Take a .410 , 28 20 ,16 , 12 , 10 or an old 8 gauge what ever you like . Load it with a 3/4 % load and see if it isn't comparable to your .30 cal load for felt recoil .

Now do the same with a 2 or 2 1/2 % load ( Turkey or Goose Loads ), BIG BIG difference . Projectile weight is felt recoil along with velocity . A 1 ounce load out of a 12 gauge at 1550 FPS bites at 1160 is mild in comparison .

Fire a 740 grain slug out of a .50 in a 8 lb. rifle and tell me that don't hurt !!!!!.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

I have seen several people mention stock design. Not counting a good recoil pad, are their any general stock characteristics that help reduce felt/perceived recoil or do most vary from person to person?

Yes there are . The use of a decelerator in the stock is one . A well engineered stock butt pad is another . I personally prefer the type with cut outs in them . Air cushions if one wants to call them that .

A real new innovation in stock cushioning is coming from European shot gun manufactures . Hopefully this design will carry over into rifles .

The stocks are synthetic with chevron cushions a type of absorbing foam ( I would think a urethane of sorts or sorbathane ) cut actually Molded right into the comb area of the stock .

If you've got to have wood then very doubtful that will ever catch on . Synthetic stocks how ever would be a piece of cake to do .

A good decelerator and a butt pad on a reasonable weight rifle will do it right by just about everyone .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

The best stock for handling recoil I have ever encountered is on the new Israeli sniper rifle in the .338/.416 chambering (.338 Lapua Mag IIRC). With no muzzle brake at all, it is as easy or easier for me to shoot from the bench than a standard 8 lb. .30-06. And that's with the 250 gr. bullet and about a peck (1/2 bushel) of powder!

Its stock is composite, with some little (very, very small) vertical ripples built into the butt. Apparently, they fold/unfold to some small degree kind of like an accordion. Anyway, the rifle is an absolute pleasure to shoot. Of course, the fact it weighs over 13 pounds doesn't hurt any either....

Danged if I can remember who even builds the rifle...mind has gone blank for the moment. But, I did a post here on AR about it a few weeks ago.

I can shoot 200 rounds in a morning on clays and rockies with a shotgun. Your stance also helps alot. I don't think I could do that off the bench with a steady rest at the shooting range.

that'll be four pecks to the bushel homey!

Rich
DRSS

My 935 Mossberg auto ( 3 1/2 ", 2 Oz HV) kicks considerably more than my Ruger .416 Rigby. The Ruger weighs almost 11 lbs and the Mossberg just over 9. Both have 1 3/8" Kickeez pads. The Ruger has a straighter stock.

This is academic since I shoot the Mossberg turkey gun only a little but I must practice lots with the Rigby.

So what about this comaprison. 378 Wheatherby with 300gn bullets at 2900fps, compared with a 416 Rigby with 300gn bullets at 2900 fps. Both take about 110gn of powder to achieve this. If you do the calcs they give the same figures (assuming rifles of the same weight & stock design). I have fired a 416 Rigby with 400 gn bullets at 2400fps, and I didn't thnk it was too bad. It certainly kicks but it is bearable in my opinion. However popular opinon about the 378 is that it is the worst kicker of them all. Now I haven't fired one of these so I can't compare. What say those of you who have used both calibers?

quote:

Originally posted by GrayDuck:
I have seen several people mention stock design. Not counting a good recoil pad, are their any general stock characteristics that help reduce felt/perceived recoil ...

Hey GrayDuck, Go get your hands on a real Weatherby Mark V and take a close look at the way the Butt Stock is designed. It is designed to minimize muzzle rise. A lot of the Remingtons do this also, but Weatherby seems to be the best at it for me.

One thing they seem to underplay is the angle of their Cheek Piece. As the rifle is in recoil, the cheek piece just about remains neutral for me - no smack to the cheek. And that gives the perception of reduced Recoil.
-----

There used to be a blow-hard braggart that posted here who made the comment that he really disliked the Mark V stocks because they tended to hit his cheek harder than his favorite stocks - the pre-64 Win. The vast majority of the pre-64 Wins were designed for use with Iron Sights which means your face sets "lower" in relation to the Bore. That in turn generally causes the stock to be designed in a way that creates more Angular Rotation(muzzle rise) than stocks designed for use with scopes. Nothing tricky, just the way it works.

Those of us who spotted it knew he was blow-harding as usual and he got called on it.

Anyway, go see how a Weatherby Mark V fits your face and you will experience one of the very best stock designs ever created to minimize the effects of recoil.

Best of luck to you.

I have found though extensive research. The best way to reduce felt recoil is to put game in the cross hairs when you shoot. It works everytime for me.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by GrayDuck:
I have found plenty of info on felt recoil with respect to various calibers. However, I have never shot anything along the lines of a 338 WM or a 375 H&H. Wondering if there is any info out there regarding felt recoil from shotguns. I have touched off some 2 3/8 oz turkey loads out of a Benelli SBE but have no idea how that compares to the above.

"Felt" recoil is different from actual free recoil. What you feel depends not just on the raw foot-pounds of energy delivered by the gun but HOW that energy is applied to your body as well.

Heavy recoil generated by heavy, low MV projectiles often feels more like a slow, steady push rather than the short, sharp jab that you get from rounds having much higher MV.

In addition, the shape of the stock and how the recoil energy is transmitted to your shoulder and cheekbone is very sigificant. For example, I have a .73-caliber Jaeger flintlock rifle that launches a 600-grain round ball at 1500 FPS with 150 grains of black powder. This combination delivers 71 foot-pounds of free recoil. Yet, this rifle has a thick, fat butt and a large diameter forend to hold onto, and it does not punish the shooter nearly as much as one would expect. The flash in the pan is more disconcerting than the recoil from this rifle.

Many heavy 12-ga. shotgun loads develop recoil comparable to a dangerous game rifle. In an Ithaca Model 37 featherweight or similar light shotgun, such loads can be just terrible to shoot!

quote:

GrayDuck - "I have seen several people mention stock design. Not counting a good recoil pad, are their any general stock characteristics that help reduce felt/perceived recoil or do most vary from person to person?

Yeah, very much so. Calculated recoil has little to do with perceived - painful - recoil. To explain, first consider what's bad!

No one would think a .30-30, or even a .30-06 or 20 gage would be painful but... in the wrong configuration they have been the worst I've shot, and that includes a .458W!

The first .30-30 I fired was made in the early nineteen hundreds. Had a LOT of drop, thin butt and a steel plate. That thing HURT to shoot.

My first .30-06 was an original Rem 721, also a lot of drop, steel butt plate. It turned my shoulder blue after 15 rounds! Painful, it was.

My father had an Ithaca 37 Lite 20, also with a lot of drop and hard pad on a narrow stock. Not fun to shoot either.

Other, more powerful guns felt fine to shoot all day. All this taught me that a nearly straight stock with little drop at the heel, reduces the cheek wallop. A wide, beefy butt spreads the "impact zone" and reduces the brusing. Obviously, a soft recoil pad beats a hard plate. Taken together, these three features tame the worst recoilers even in light-weight weapons, at least for me.

Heavy loads in my Rem. 700 Mtn. Rifle don't hurt at all, it's a well designed rig even tho it's quite light.

All of this assumes the shooter has full and firm shoulder contact before pulling the trigger, allowing the recoil to get a running start before hitting you changes things.

Even at best, heavy recoilers should be shot from a nearly vertical position to allow you to give to the energy. Shooting from a bench or prone can dislocate some shoulder joints with the big 'uns.

Sign up for an account at www.realguns.com and use their Recoil Calculator.

Removes the guess work.

GrayDuck,

I have prepared the following example for you to use to calculate recoil for your specific needs. I used a 9.3x62 as the pilot cartridge.

The 3rd Law of Physics:
"Whenever one body exerts a force on another, the second body always exerts on the first a force which is equal in measure but opposite in direction." In other words, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The rifle will have a recoil momentum equal to the bullet and powder gas momentum exiting the muzzle. Momentum equals Mass (M) times Velocity (V).

Cartridge: 9.3x62
Bullet Weight: 286 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2350 fps
Average Powder Weight: 55 grains
7000 grains = 1 pound
Powder Gas Velocity = 5200 fps

MV = MV, therefore;

Bullet Weight/7000 x Bullet Velocity + Powder Charge/7000 x Powder Gas Velocity = Rifle Weight x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Assume an initial rifle weight of 9 pounds to determine Rifle Recoil Velocity in order to calculate Kinetic Energy, therefore;

[286/7000 x 2350] + [55/7000 x 5200] = 9 x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

[96.01 + 40.86] /9 = Rifle Recoil Velocity = Free Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Rifle Recoil Velocity = 15.21 fps for a 9.3x62 weighing 9 pounds. For comparison purposes, the Rifle Recoil Velocity of .30-06 weighing 8.5 pounds firing a 180 grain bullet is 12.71 fps.

Now calculate Kinetic Energy (KE) expressed in ft. lbs:

KE = Mass times Velocity squared / Gravitational Constant, therefore;

KE = [9 x 15.21 x 15.21] / 64.32, therefore;

KE = 32.37 ft. lbs. = Free Recoil Energy for 9.3x62 weighing 9 pounds.

Run a sensitivity analysis to dial in rifle weight and balance.