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Hey dan, check out Midway's web site. They are already listing a 200gr .323 Nosler Accubond  | ||
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If winchester made a 338wsm , maybe with alittle longer case ?? Well then it might not fit that short reciever. I might bite. 8mm is to close to 30cal ,,,dont want it. | |||
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(In my best Homer Simpson voice), mmmmmmm, 8mm Accubonds. Drool. - Dan  | |||
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Quote:Quote: Okay, then lets compare the 220gr 8mm power point @ 2840fps then If you can get the 200gr bullet to do 2850fps in a 300WSM then a 200gr 8mm bullet should do at least 150fps better @ the same pressure. It is simple physics at work, the same pressure working on a bore section that is about 5% greater will give a proportionate increase in velocity. That pressure in either case would be "on the edge". (unless you are using an unusually long barrel) The WSM that really has no logical reason for being is the 270WSM. The 7mmWSM is nearly the ballistic twin (slightly better perhaps)with a much better choice in bullets. The bullet choice in 7mm is arguably better than even the .308. | |||
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No! Those Dumb @sses gave us the 6.5 Rem Mag - AGAIN  | |||
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IF this is true, how do you think Remington responds 260 saum?? | |||
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Allen Day, Common sense tells me to avoid a match with a person who is behaving like you are now. I suggest that you think about how your acting and calm down. Since you invited me to talk about myself what could be more fun than that? I will not discuss my trophy room, which is the first floor on my house in VT, as it's irrelevant to any discussion of belted cartridges. As to belted magnums cartridges lets keep it on cartridges with adeqate shoulders for headspacing as we would not have the 300 H&H or even the .458 Win without belts. I got my first belted magnum in 1961. It was a 264 WM on a Mauser with a 1-12 twisted barrel. The rifle was for long range varmints. I learned about the fact that the shoulders blow forward and can cause insipiant head separations about this time. I saw no advantange to a belt and in fact it's a problem. The cartridge and chamber drawings all confirm this. I have to cut this answer off at this time. I will be back. In the mean time I once again ask you to stop your insults and rude behavior. What's the matter with you these last few days? | |||
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| <allen day> |
You're sidestepping the issue. Now why am I not surpised? AD | ||
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If your shoot a CRF such as a Mauser, the potentially sloppy headspace is the same weather you have a belt or not. I would sujest that your former 264 was chambered long, there for you had stretching in you web area. A 3006 with the same long cut chamber would have stretched the same way. Don't worry I know I'm a retard with no experience, so you don't have to tell me.  | |||
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Quote:Quote: Actually, George, show me a good varmint hunter and I will show you a guy who is death in the field. | |||
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Why would a rebated rim case be weaker than a belted case? The belt is in the web area anyway. How would the extra thickness of the rim contribute to the strength of an area that is (except for the primer pocket) essentially a solid mass? Are we splitting hairs here? Excellent point about the beltless magnum cases being thicker in the web area. A much better method of strengthening the case head. Don't you agree? You mention "partial full length" resising. As far as I know, the only way to truely full length resize a belted case is to use a "collet" type die, thus complicating matters somewhat. As far as "stress risers" go: Any time there is a 90 * inside corner at an area that is subject to stress (pressure and resizing), stress will be conscentrated @ that point. As you are not doing the (perhaps unnecessary in your case) collet type full length resizing, of course you are probably not experiencing any problems. If, you had been truely full length resizing your cases, the repeated working of the stessed area immediately adjacent to the inside corner @ the belt/case jucture would have weakened the case @ that point leading to insipient failure sooner than with a beltless case. Perhaps I am splitting the hairs now. As far as far as magazine capacity goes. I shoot the animal, observe the reaction as I chamber another round, then go find the animal. If the animal appears to be wounded, then I'll "fling lead". It has been many years since I have shot more than once @ a big game animal. For years I only hunted with muzzle loaders. (no suppositories ) I don't take risky shots and if I miss, I do not shoot again. After all, the first shot is usually the best one anyway. My point is, why increase the case head diameter unless you increase the diameter of the entire case? Beltless is better, both from a manufacturing standpoint and in use. That doesn't mean that there aren't some excellent "belted" rounds out there. | |||
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Allen Day, I have previously posted pictures of many groups that I have fired. In fact I may have posted more such pictures than anyone here. Do a search. The topic of the incorrect design of belted bottlenecked cartridges has also been discussed here. Do a search for it and you will find the facts. I also suggest that you buy yourself some cartridge and chamber drawings. The easiest way to get most of them is from the NRA. Order the NRA guide "Handloading" The link to the NRA is in my signature. Please also engage one or more of gunsmiths that you know in this discussion. You seem to know quite a few so have them make their comments after they read the archives. You must have been out hunting when we were hashing this out. That was a very good report that you gave on your most recent safari by the way. | |||
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Quote:It depends on the actual dimensions specified for a particular case. And within those specs are tolerances which each manufacturer seems to vary "internally". Easily verified by weighing and sectioning cases from different manufacturers. But, their "External Dimensions" are amazingly close for the vast majority. Quote:Not necessarily. Due to the various manufactures varying the "internal dimensions", it makes no difference at all with some rifle designs. However in the poor gas handling rifles and those with Fixed Ejectors, it no doubt addds a bit more to the overall Safety. And as said before, the Belted cases already addressed this issue. Quote:Never had the need for a "Collet" Die to squash the sides of the case in. Full Length Sizing is simply screwing the Full Length Die in until you have some amount of "Headspace". Using a Full Length Die, it is fairly easy to set this where ever a person wants it. If I had a chambe rthat did not allow me to use Standard Dies, I'd just send a couple of fired cases, along with my Dies, to the manufacturer to have them replace or adjust the portion that resizes the body rather than waste $100 on a Collet Body Die. But, anyone that wants to toss away $100 on that device should go right ahead and do so. Good for the economy! Quote:The problem here is the inside of the case is not at that 90deg angle, the wall is smooth and tapering to the thicker web portion. Anyone can see this by looking in any Speer Manual and looking at the cut-away flicks. Depending on the internal Pressure, determines how far down the case wall the tapered portion expands outward. Put enough pressure in it and the Belt moves too. But due to it's position relative to the web, the "stress riser" just isn't an issue - unless the Resizing is done wrong. For a person who only uses Factory Ammo, this is a non-issue, irregardless of the design. Quote:Perhaps you are splitting hairs. I've had Casehead Separations, but none of which can be attributed to what you have described. I do understand how it could occur, but if your Dies are properly set up to Partial-Full Length Resize in a Bolt Action rifle, and the Chamber is dimensioned properly(as most nearly all are) it would be a rare event. If on the other hand we are talking about Dangerous Game Loads where some "Headspace" is desired, then the case life is shortened. But that applies to any kind of case - Belted or not. Quote:The nice thing is you can have it any way you desire. If you don't want a Belt(as I said in my first post) there are plenty of non-Belted cases available. But, just because you would rather have a Beltless case, certainly doesn't mean other folks who do like Belted cases shouldn't choose them. One excellent point about having a Belt on a case is the ease at which you can measure Case Head Expansion(CHE) with a regular micrometer. With "some" Non-Belted cases you need the somewhat expensive Thin Blade micrometers to measure the same value. But, for people who choose not to use this excellent, old, time-proven Pressure Detection Method, then it would make no difference at all to them. Quote:I just don't agree that one style is "better" than the other from a manufacturing standpoint or for everyone. If you feel the Beltless is better for you, I'm all for it. However, arguing they are best for everyone just isn't logical. I've got both styles and like both of them, so it makes no difference to me at all what someone else chooses to use. Best of luck to you. | |||
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"Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why would a rebated rim case be weaker than a belted case?" In my view , because there is actually a small portion of the case , in a critical area , that is unsuported by the chamber wall , bolt face , or solid head of the case . My guess is that is why the manufacturer added the "extra" brass in that area . If you load at sane limts , this will likely never affect you , but then the so-called faults of the belted case are also non-issues . | |||
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Quote: Uhhhh.....Maybe I'm not following you here. Are you referring to the base of the case where the diameter of the case is larger than the rim? It might be slightly bigger on a rebated case, but all rimless, semi-rimmed, rebated, and belted cases have an extracter groove, so the same can be said about them! When was the last time anyone even heard of any case rupturing between the web and base of the extracter groove!?!? Agreed...complete non-issue. In all these case types the primer pocket will fail well before the casehead! | |||
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Quote: Would the "experience" factor improve for those of us that killed critters that were shooting back? | |||
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Because of the larger dimention at just above the solid case head , there is a comparatively larger unsupported area on a re-bated design than any regular belted or rimless case. There is also alot of solid brass above the extractor groove on any case....... And I agree , it's all just splitting hairs here , but detractors of the belted design seem hell bent on nit-picking also........(grin) | |||
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| Moderator |
Quote:Quote:Quote: John, I hunt varmints every year in Wyoming, too. I was ragging Savage99 on his claim of having shot 'thousands of animals'. George | |||
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| one of us |
any stress analysts in the house that can spare some time and model a couple of cases for a finite element analysis?? Too much guessing going on here. | |||
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Varmint Al has some at his site: http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm It's pretty interesting. It pretty well shows why cases fail at the pressure ring, rather than at the head. HTH, Dutch. | |||
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98 action with no ill affects thank you 
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A more fair comparison would be a 200 gr 8mm vs a 225 grain .338 which, IMO, is the "natural/ideal" weight for a .338. The 225 in a 338 WSM will go 2,800 fps (+). Me, I'd rather have a 225 in a .338 than a 200 in an 8mm. Heck, in the 300 WSM's I've played with the 200's will go 2,850... I'd rather use a 200 in the 300 than a 200 in an 8mm. 