I have taken elk with the 270 Win, 308 Norma Mag, and 340 Weatherby Mag. Mule deer with the 257 Roberts, 25-06 Rem, 264 Win,270 Win,and 308 Norma Mag. If recoil is not a problem for you get the 300 Win Mag. Reload premium 165 Gr bullets in the 300. One fall I loaded up 165 Gr bullets in my Norma -three shots= one pronghorn, one mule deer, one elk. One could also do the some with the good old 30-06. But it is always fun to get a new rifle.

What's the matter with your 300WSM, Jon?

quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beutler:
I have hunted deer/elk in Utah for over 25 years without a magnum. (I hope to draw an elk tag someday and for that I have a 300WSM)

quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beutler:
Why is it that when I think about that "once in a lifetime" mule deer hunt, I question the adequacy of my caliber. I have hunted deer and elk my whole life with a 06/308/270 with no problems, but when I think about this mysterious hunt of a lifetime, I have a need to purchase a .300 mag?

If you already have a 30-06 you dont need a 300 mag you need to move up the the 338 WM.It a much better elk gun.I did it 30 years ago .I had a 30-06 that I used for years.Then I got a 300 wm I was not impressed.I bought a 338 wm and sold the 300wm.After 120 head of big game I am am 338 fan for life.I bought a 338-378 to add 200 yards to my 338 wm.I use the 338 wm and 338-378 on game from deer to moose and grizzleys.It is the best gun for North American Big Game.I am so use to my old Ruger 77 tang safety 338 wm that its like shooting a fine double shotgun .Its old faithful.I do like my weatherby accumark 338-378 on the tundra of alaska best.

I've been hunting deer since I was 11 years old and I'm pushing 73 mighty hard. I didn't hunt Mule deer until 1970 though when I left California for good and forever and moved to Nevada. I've taken Mule Deer as far out as 427 paces (no rangefinders back then) to as close a 6 feet. (Damned deer got spooked by somebody else and damn near ran me over.) Just for splits and grins, both those deer were taken with the .308 Win. and 150 gr. Sierra pro-hunters. I've probably killed more Mule Deer with the .308 and 30-06 than with any other cartridge and the .270 works just fine.
here is how I would go about it if I was on that hunt. If shots are exected to be anywhee from close up to way out yonder, I believe I would look at the .270 first with the 150 gr. Sierra Game King as bullet of choice. If the 30-06, my chice would be the Sierra 180 gr. Pro-Hunter although the 165 gr. Sierra Game King HP bullet might be an option. Depends on whether you rifle likes the bullet or not. For the .308 I'd use the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core. For some weird reason, my Ruger M77 RSI, the Mannlicher stocked model is a one trick pony and that bullet over a stiff load of W-760 is the oly load that will give anywhere decent accuracy and frankly. 1.25" is the best it will do. Velocity is only 2550 FPS but it's one deer killing S.O.B. Longest shot I've had to take was at 250 yards laser measured. Deer was facing me, bullet hit just below the neck and straveled the whole length of the deer stopping against a back leg bone, breaking the bone. Deer turn toes up and died. What more can you ask?
Do you need a premium bullet for deer? I don't think so except maybe if i ware hunting in an area where there might be the possibility of problem with bears. Then, of the three rifles I'd definitely go with the 06 and 180 gr. Nosler Partitions loads just as hot as the rifle will safely handle.
BTW, that 150 gr. Sierra Game-King seems to be fairly kind to eating meat. I just recently changed to that bullet from various 130 gr. bullets and used the Game-King on my antelope hunt in 2009. Bullet hit near the back part of the rib cage and came out the right shoulder. meat damage was minimal considering the "goat" was only about 75 yards out from me. He ran in a short 30 foot half circle and expired. Exit hole was a bit over one inch in diameter. First time I used that bulelt on game of any kind which doesn't prove a hell of a lot but I did like the way it worked.
Guess my point is this; deer don't wear kevlar and and standard cup and core bullet from the 3 cartridges in question will do just fine with the weights I mentioned. The .270 with 130 fr. bullets and the .308 and 06 with 150's might be a bit more destructive but they too will work. I just mentioned what works for me.
As far as getting a .300 magnum of any kind, hell I've never needed any excuse to buy another rifle. I like my .300 Win. mag. but i reserve it's use for the occasional elk elk here in Arizona. The area I seem to draw most of the time requires something that will reach out and touch something. But that's aother subject altogether. If you want one, go for it. Do you really need it? I don't think so.
Paul B.

As I've begun to understand, there is virtually no difference in terminal effectiveness among any of the .30 caliber rifle cartridges. The main advantage the magnum cartridges might offer is added range, whenever this might be a factor.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
As I've begun to understand, there is virtually no difference in terminal effectiveness among any of the .30 caliber rifle cartridges. The main advantage the magnum cartridges might offer is added range, whenever this might be a factor.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

I had that same argument with a friend yesterday that told me a 308 was no good for Elk but a 300 Mag was just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beutler:
Why is it that when I think about that "once in a lifetime" mule deer hunt, I question the adequacy of my caliber. I have hunted deer and elk my whole life with a 06/308/270 with no problems, but when I think about this mysterious hunt of a lifetime, I have a need to purchase a .300 mag? This was further enforced this weekend at the hunt expo, when I was asked a guide what rifle he would choose. He said “the one I can shoot the best” I then asked what he would take, he said “the magnum”. I then asked if he can shoot his mag better than the non-mag and he said no. So why is it we feel so uncomfortable or inadequate hunting with a gun we can shoot better, on that proverbial “hunt of a lifetime”?

.270 Win is the deer cartridge, period. Mule or whitetail.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
As I've begun to understand, there is virtually no difference in terminal effectiveness among any of the .30 caliber rifle cartridges. The main advantage the magnum cartridges might offer is added range, whenever this might be a factor.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

I had that same argument with a friend yesterday that told me a 308 was no good for Elk but a 300 Mag was just fine.

The 308 - no good for elk? That's silly talk. IMO, it's like you said - it's a matter of range.

For many years, until just last year, I had a negative opinion re the 300WM, and it still lingers somewhat. However, I went through two 7 mags, and confirmed my lowly opinion of them. Then I decided to actually test fire a Ruger 300WM, which I had in the closet for many years, as a barreled action, intended as a donor action for a project. So I dropped it into a spare Hogue stock, full aluminum bed, and tested it with some very old Remington factory 180gr CL ammo a friend gave me. The darn thing was accurate. So, I cleaned up the brass with some brasso, and loaded some BT Hornady 180gr bullets that I had not been able to get to shoot accurately in other 30 cal rifles. Low and behold - accurate again. Then I really splurged and tried some 200gr Nosler AB and then some 180gr TTSX. Both made excellent groups. The Hogue stock is a little heavy, but solid and rigid, and the recoil is quite tame in that stock. Since then I've picked up a much lighter used McMillan classic style stock for it, but it needs proper bedding, so I'll use the Hogue until I can get it to a gunsmith.

Now I have a delema. A rifle that's accurate, chambered in a cartridge that I don't like. Hummm.

Well, as my gunsmith/buddy says: it's hard to get rid of an accurate rifle. It's funny how one's view of things can change - all of a sudden.

Now, if I went elk hunting, most likely I would take the 300WM, and leave the 308 home. Not because the 308 is inadequate, but because the 300 shoots well, and has extra range, etc. If I didn't have an accurate 300WM, the 308 would be just fine. Actually, I would probably pick the rifle based on the type of hunt expected. If I had to carry the rifle a long ways, in the mountains, I would either get a lighter stock on the 300 or take the 308, or a similar but lighter rifle.

I can think of several situations where the 300WM would be nice to have along, such as a tundra caribou hunt, where the ranges can be long. I can give other examples, but you get the picture.

There is one thing that I've firmed up my opinion about, over time, and that's I don't think a magnum is generally needed, and the niche that a magnum can fill doesn't really start until the caliber is 30 cal or bigger. Sure, speed can be obtaied with the smaller magnums, but something like the 270 or 280 or 30-06 is better, IMO, than a magnum smaller that 30 cal. I would much rather have a 300 mag than a 7 mag, because the 7 mag is no better at long range than a 30-06, and a range finder is a necessary tool anyway, at the ranges that might make a difference with either cartridge. it takes at least a 300 mag to make any difference ballistically, at the ranges where it's relavant.

KB

300 Savage (or 30 TC if want to be modern) 308, 30-06, 300 H&H, 300 Win/Norma/WSM/SAUM/RCM, 300 Wby, 300 RUM, 30-378/Lazz cases.....all fire the SAME bullets and will do the same killin....its just a matter of range and comfort zones. At reasonable distance you are probably talking what, about a foot difference in drop from the bottom to the top?

The magnums don't really shine until the 400 yard mark and beyond, IF you want to be shooting that far. I can see why some people would go for the extra reach when considering something like a hard to come by trophy mulie or coues hunt. I can also make a good argument if you are doing an elk/moose/bear/deer combo type hunt. All the calibers would kill, but again, matter of distance.

Now if you really wanted some extra reach strictly for mule deer? I would probably be looking for like the 270 WSM or Wby, 257 Wby or one of the fast 7's like the Rem Mag, STW or RUM. Are they needed? No. But, aint new guns fun

Here is a large bodied Mule Deer shot with a single 140gr TTSX from a 280 AI at 390 yds. His life size cape now adorns the life size mount of the owner of Christiansen Arms Governor tag Mule Deer. They couldn't find a cape that was larger. A Mule Deer is not that tough to kill.

Well, IME, many guides are not exc shots. I don't think the magnum gives you much but maybe another 50yds ov er a 270 or 06. It won't kill deer any better @ 300yds than the 270 or 06 IMO. You'll also have to carry the extra weight & practice w/ the extra recoil. I'ld take the rifle you currently shoot best & put a good bullet in it & go hunt.

quote:

I had that same argument with a friend yesterday that told me a 308 was no good for Elk but a 300 Mag was just fine.

Regards,

Well, what the 300mag gives you over the 308 for elk is the ability to push a heavy 180gr or better bullet much faster, 2500fps vs 3000fps. QUite a bit of diff in traj & impact vel beyond 300yds. So you extend the range over the 308 by 100yds & still have enough vel to get the bullet to expand well & drive deep. The 308 is fine under 300yds, beyond that, not enough gas for good bullet performance. You want to kill any animal quickly & cleanly, elk especially.

quote:

As I've begun to understand, there is virtually no difference in terminal effectiveness among any of the .30 caliber rifle cartridges. The main advantage the magnum cartridges might offer is added range, whenever this might be a factor.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

30cal bullets are all the same, but to say there is no performance diff just isn't true. The higher impact vel allows the bullet to do more work at any range. So the 06 has a slight advantage o/ the 08 & the 300mags o/ the 06 as ranges get further out. Plus as yo ugo up in powder voilumn, yo ucan push a heavier more effective bullet faster. The 06 gets the same vel w/ a 180gr as the 08 does w/ a 165gr. The 300mag will exceed the 08 by 400fps w/ a 165gr bullet & 500fps w/ a better 180gr bullet when it comes to heavier game. Yes, size does matter if used correctly. With 200yd zero @ 400yd target:
308/165gr @ 2700fps = -21" @ 2290fps/1918ft#
06/180gr @ 2700fps = -21 @ 2305fps/2123ft#
300mag/180gr @ 3000fps = -16.5" @ 2590fps/2685ft#
QUite a diff in performance, but for most hunting under 300yds, the mag is way more gun thatn you need.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Here is a large bodied Mule Deer shot with a single 140gr TTSX from a 280 AI at 390 yds. His life size cape now adorns the life size mount of the owner of Christiansen Arms Governor tag Mule Deer. They couldn't find a cape that was larger. A Mule Deer is not that tough to kill.

Pretty Buck!

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
What's the matter with your 300WSM, Jon?

I decided to become single again, had to pare down a bit. Kept the .270 Ultra lightweight for backpacking mule deer hunt.

quote:

I had that same argument with a friend yesterday that told me a 308 was no good for Elk but a 300 Mag was just fine.

About the only difference I can think of is cases where bullets of 200+ grains couldn't be used for the type of game these might be used against. But I wouldn't think mule deer would require this much bullet.

Since we're obviously interested in deforming-type bullets here, I could see where the increased velocity of a magnum at closer ranges could cause more damage to the penetrating bullet and this might actually retard the penetration inside the animal.

Just for the information of those that never heard of Dr Ashby, I shall briefly mention a few things about him:

# He is an American medical doctor that is a gun-nut with fast hunting experience.
# He says ... "Being retired and now spending most of my time in Africa, I had access to plenty of animals ... "
# He retired in 1994 from the United States Public Health Service.
# Since then he devoted his interest to terminal ballistics on a full time basis.
# He tested Barnes-X bullets on monkeys, jackals,baboons, warthog and on various game species
# As a medical practitioner he is certainly more capable of interpreting wound channels than the man in the street.
# He says ... "For decades I have routinely autopsied each animal killed, keeping careful records."
# He bought 1,000 45-gr Barnes-X bullets before starting this project. (Was he serious?)
# His objective was ... "I wanted to test their terminal ballistic performance in animal tissue at a wide range of velocities."
# He extended his tests to include the 30-06 Spr and 375 H&H.

Dr Ashby demonstrated on game with Barnes -X bullets that penetration suffers as we increase velocity. With the .223 bullet an increase in impact velocity of only 279 fps (2,369 - 2,090) reduced the penetration by 2.28 inches (16.03" - 13.75"), but at a higher impact velocity of 3,105 fps the penetration reduced by 9.7 inches (16.03" - 6.33"). This is quite significant. After Dr Ashby arrived at his conclusion with the .223 caliber bullet, he was indeed curious to see if the same principle of shallower penetration at higher velocities hold true for bigger caliber bullets as well.

He then proved this trend in the 30-06 and says at 2,792 fps the 165-gr X-bullet penetrates far less deeply than it does at a velocity of 2,428 fps. None at low velocity fail to exit, but at high velocity frequently bullets failed to exit. The he went further and tested the 270-gr .375 bullets at just over 2,400 fps MV on 20 animals (wildebeest, kudu, & zebra). All were deliberately adverse angled shots in the hope to retrieve some of the bullets. All were one shot kills and all bullets did exit.

I feel Dr Ashby has done some reasonable field work to test and draw some conclusions; perhaps more so than most of us. Certainly enough to convince me. He published his findings in the Man Magnum magazine some years ago. Now to make a statement that velocity can replace SD is just plain silly. Here Dr Ashby used the same bullets with the same SD right through, he just lowered the velocity and already he reported visible gains in penetration. For the same reason, one may as well then use a heavier bullet at the lowered velocity and maximize the gain already achieved.

Warrior

I would like to read the Dr.'s write up if you have a link to it. I have observed the same phenom as the good Dr. At longer distnces where velocity has dropped say 500 or 600 yards exits are routine. Not always the case at closer ranges where velocity is high. The same has been proven in ballistic gelatin

great posting. Thanks! roger

The article about Dr Ashby appeared in an old Man Magnum magazine and cannot put my hand on it now. It was a watershed article for me and one of those that will always be remembered.

A friend of mine shot 9 Blesbuck at distances of 200 yds plus, all head shots with his 22-250 Rem using 55 grain lead-core bullets. All were pass throughs. Distances were more like 250 to 280 yds, I cannot remember exactly as he and a friend shot 9 animals on one day.

Then I shot an Impala and a Wildebeest some time later with his rifle when he accompanied me last July to a Thabazimbi lodge. Mine were also headshots,between 80 and a 100 yds. None were pass throughs.

Warrior

Interesting.

Most of the info on Ashby's tests have to do with arrow penetration.

This makes all bullet arrows then.
By the way, arrows are efficient killers !!!
Care to explain this?

Warrior

quote:

One could also do the some with the good old 30-06. But it is always fun to get a new rifle.

Last new rifle I got was a 30-06. Because I gave the other 30-06 to my nephew. He got a Weatherby Vanguard, Leupold VXII 3 - 9x 40mm duplex.

"You sure you want to do this?"

"Yeah, it'll give me an excuse to shop for new iron."

I found a Win. Mod. 70 "Classic Stainless" in 30-06, Leupold VXII 3 - 9x 40mm duplex.

(If it ain't broke, don't fix it.)

quote:

# He is an American medical doctor that is a gun-nut with fast hunting experience.
# He says ... "Being retired and now spending most of my time in Africa, I had access to plenty of animals ... "

So nobody has introduced Doc Ashby to sudoku, huh?
(That's an inside joke I make at my own expense. )

quote:

Dr Ashby demonstrated on game with Barnes -X bullets that penetration suffers as we increase velocity. With the .223 bullet an increase in impact velocity of only 279 fps (2,369 - 2,090) reduced the penetration by 2.28 inches (16.03" - 13.75"), but at a higher impact velocity of 3,105 fps the penetration reduced by 9.7 inches (16.03" - 6.33"). This is quite significant. After Dr Ashby arrived at his conclusion with the .223 caliber bullet, he was indeed curious to see if the same principle of shallower penetration at higher velocities hold true for bigger caliber bullets as well.

I believe it.
A couple of other guys and myself were studying terminal ballistics independently several years ago. One of the conclusions that we came to was that the path of a projectile in a target is retarded at the rate of the square of the velocity. (This is one of the factors, anyway.) Coupled with the higher density of the target, you get quite a bit of negative acceleration occurring once a bullet impacts. Stated another way, you have a lot of resisting force which contributes to tearing up, destabilizing, and deforming bullets and preventing their forward motion.
There's no doubt that velocity is important to penetration up to a certain point. Past that point, which isn't easy to define, it tends to go in reverse.

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
As I've begun to understand, there is virtually no difference in terminal effectiveness among any of the .30 caliber rifle cartridges. The main advantage the magnum cartridges might offer is added range, whenever this might be a factor.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

IMO, the advantage of a magnum cartridge is that you can shoot heavier bullets and still obtain decent velocity. A .300 win mag will launch a 200 grain bullet at the same velocity that you can shoot a 180 grain bullet out of a .30-06.

Any of the '06, .308, or Mauser family cartridges is going to be adequate from a trajectory standpoint as far as most hunters have any business shooting (IMO 300-350 yards). The difference in trajectory between a .300 win mag and a .30-06 with the same bullet weight is only a few inches at 300 yards.

It is an absolute requirement that you buy a brand new .300 magnum for this hunt. In fact, you need to buy a new rifle before every hunt! Otherwise, the bullets will bounce off the animal's hide and you will have lost the opportunity of a lifetime!

Now, show this post to your wife as evidence as to why you need a new rifle. (It worked for me for the first 20-or-so new rifles, however that excuse ran outta steam. Now I just put the new ones in with the old ones and use the "you mean that old gun? Honey, I've had that one for years" ploy. Don't know how I'm going to explain the second safe though.

quote:

Now, show this post to your wife as evidence as to why you need a new rifle.

"Honey, I have to get another rifle. Why? It's the springs. They get weaker and they don't make the bullets fly as fast as they used to. Why don't I just sell the old ones? I can't! Nobody wants to buy rifles with weak springs! How many new rifles would I be able to buy after I pay you alimony? Well--when would you like me to sell my old rifles? Today or tomorrow?"

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
Just use enough BULLET and your current rifles are perfect.

This is exactly what I did for my 2008 Ontario Moose hunt.

150 gr. A-Frame from a regular old .270 wcf @ 3000 fps.

Shot a nice young moose (not too small, either!) at a little more than 240 yards.

Broke both shoulders and also the spine! Found the bullet underneath the off-side hide.

Take the rifle you shoot best and don't worry about the rest!

friar

quote:

150 gr. A-Frame from a regular old .270 wcf @ 3000 fps.

I've used my uncle's Model 70 with this bullet.
I likes me some 150 grain 270! Very tolerable recoil but it seems to "think" it's a big ole '06!

+1 the 270 with 150 grain bullets is more than enough for mule deer.

quote:

IMO, the advantage of a magnum cartridge is that you can shoot heavier bullets and still obtain decent velocity. A .300 win mag will launch a 200 grain bullet at the same velocity that you can shoot a 180 grain bullet out of a .30-06.

This is the difference to me as well. I sold a .280 and kept the 7 mag. The only other mag I own is a .338 WM.

I love these threads for the entertainment, but generally find them less than productive. I have my favorites I suppose, and definite opinions about certain ones but in reality a well placed bullet will always do the deed.