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No doubt several factors contribute to the accuracy of a rifle. I just wondered how some folks ranked these different factors in importance. This is how I rank them. Some might disagree with my order and rank something higher. That's ok, I don't have these chiseled in stone and a convincing argument to justify the difference is exactly what I'm looking for. Someone might say, you missed a factor. That's cool too. I'm looking for experiences and insights, not a chance to beat someone up for a differing opinion. 1. The barrel - As far as I've experienced if the barrel is crap, money spent improving any other part of the gun is wasted. Note: I intend for this to apply to a quality chambering job as well. 2. Optics - I do know a couple guys that can shoot fantastic groups with open sights. But for the majority of us, you can't hit with precision what you can't see clearly. 3. Stock fit and stability - Glass bed, free float, pressure bed or precision fit besides the quality of the barrel in my experience the stock fit is a major contributor to a rifles accuracy. If heat and humidity affects the stock, accuracy suffers. I feel like the top three factors are pretty solid. Some might swap 2 and 3. I understand. Optics aren't as important to some shooters as others. The following factors are much harder to order in importance. At least for me. 4. Trigger Quality - In my experience a trigger that breaks cleanly and predictably with repeatable precision absolutely contributes to the accuracy of the rifle. A rifle with a tough or creepy trigger is just harder for me to shoot well. 5. Lock Time Improvements - This is in essence speeding up the time the trigger is pulled to the firing pin making contact with the primer. I have no doubt this can help but have a hard time believing it will show as an improvement unless the trigger is repeatable. 6. Action Squareness - Getting everything squared and leveled so the action locks up exactly the same everytime. Some folks refer to this as "blueprinting". I've personally never had this done. So I don't honestly know if it deserves last place. In my mind even if the squareness isn't perfect, it's still repeatable and consistent. I feel like repeatability and consistency are the most important and crucial elements to an accurate rifle. Perhaps squareness plays a bigger role than I think. I'd like to know. | ||
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I would throw out # 5 and move 2 to number 4, behind barrel, bedding and trigger. Lots of gun "varmint, hunting" shoot lights out without blue print, but it should never hurt accuracy. I have a std barrel 700 in .223 that will shoot sub 1/2" with and old world class Tasco, so if it holds zero, it does not have to be a $$$ scope to shoot. | |||
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FYI, you forgot the loose nut behind the wheel! | |||
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Also known as the jerk on the trigger.  I suppose that would be item -1. But honestly if that is the issue the rest of the improvements are futile. | |||
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I agree with your assesment 100%. You have the right items in the right order. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Hey Big Guy, I agree with #1 being the Trigger Yanker. Then I'd rearrange the rest as follows: 2. Barrel & Load Development tied. 4. Trigger. 5. Balance. 6. All the rest. ----- I can see where Lock Time is indeed an issue. Since I use a lot of Remingtons though, it is of no concern for me. I used to think if it wasn't a Leupold, I was wasting my money. Times have changed that thought to, why waste money on a Leupold. There are plenty of excellent Scopes on the market today. The cheapest scope I have, an Optronics, has a better Warranty than Leupold. Amazing. This Stock Bedding is a real can of worms. Some of my S&S M7s have "Zero" Bedding, not even a drop of Hot Melt where the Recoil Lug abuts. And yet, they shoot extremely well. The new Savage Accumark Stock looks like it is a Generation ahead of everything else. From a Design perspective, it addresses a lot of common problems with other Stock Mounting methods and puts them all in need of updating. I do understand when you mention Squareness. Had Interesting thread. Thanks for cranking it up. | |||
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When someone brings a rifle to me that they want me to make it more accurate here is what I do in order. 1. Check the sights. If scoped, check the mounts. Such as, Weaver mounts and Warne rings looks like it should work but doesn't. I would say that 40% of the problems are solved with the sights. Bad scope or bar mounts. 2. The crown accounts for about 15% of the problems. 3. Stock bedding another 15% to 20%. I have found that pillar bedding is the greatest single accruacy improvement. 4. The barrel is obviously an important factor, but most factory barrels will shoot sub-MOA if properly supportted. 5. Trigger is a factor more related to the shooter than the gun. A quality trigger improves the shooter, not the gun. Most shooters think that Jewell Triggers are the best. There are two things wrong with a Jewell Trigger, 1. They cost to much. 2. They make all other triggers suck! I have never found lock time to be a big issue or even a little one. Again that is probably a shooter problem. There are a lot of accurate flintlocks. Now that is lock time! Most shooters here are not shooting benchrest, they hunt. Blue printing an action has a positive effect but I think it is very small and not noticable in a field gun. I build a lot of long range hunting guns. I use all quality components, but I'm not stuck one one brand of barrel or action. Once you have quality components, The sighting system is most important then the stock bedding.........JMHO.....Tom SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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there's a better scope warranty than "for the life of the scope"? And, "made in America, send it to Oregon" instead of overseas somewhere? That I need to see... Rich | |||
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1. Case Preparation 2. Trigger | |||
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Thanks You are absolutely right, I sure missed a big one with the crown! | |||
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1) Barrel (includes crown and chamber). 2) Bedding 3) Trigger 3) Sights Actually, lock time only becomes an issue in unsupported positions. The difference in lock time between an unaltered 03 Springfield and a mod. 70 is worth about 1.5 moa when shot from offhand position. Not much of a handicap when shooting from a rest. Regards, hm 2 Chronicles 7:14: If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. | |||
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barell/bullet/chamber alignment with the action. then brass and finally the small stuff done to it. | |||
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All of the above listed mechanical items certainly are important, but the one item that will do more to improve accuracy with the items listed is "time behind the gun..." or practice, practice, practice. Time sending rounds down range and becoming extremely familiar with the rifle and loads can make a not so fine gun shoot fine whether target or for game. You can't buy scores or solid hits on game. JMO of course. | |||
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Well, it's sort of like asking which link in a chain is the most important. Usually we can say the weakest link in that particular instance is the most critical. And, you skipped over the best bullet and load the rifle will be fed, which are also links in the chain. | |||
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In this order bedding, barrel, bullets, optics, trigger. I have made many a factory rifle to shoot better groups with a proper bedding job then improving on that with the proper bullet for the rifle then improving that with fine optics then improving on all the above with a fine trigger. A bad any of the above can cause bigger groups. | |||
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Really? How is it possible to top a no-BS, all parts included, unquestioned lifetime warranty, not only for the life of the original owner, but also for the lives of those shooters who inherit the scope? I don' theeeenk so! | |||
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I'm gonna have to agree with some cross between hm1996 and p dog shooter. Barrel and bedding go together ... if these aren't good, the best trigger, optics or ammo won't do well. Once they are adequate and stable, loads can be compared even with a less than wonderful trigger if you can see the target well enough to make it count. This will get you info on what bullets the rifle likes. Then perfection of the trigger gets the smallest groups. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Fixing bedding is relatively inexpensive and educational. Adjusting a decent trigger isn't so hard. Grinding a crown isn't so bad. Fitting your reloads to the chamber is worth the time spent. Everything past that costs money. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Hey jetdrvr, It is pretty simple if you think about it. They are not very expensive to the Buyer and obviously even less to to the Seller. I'd recommend you look at their web site. The company primarily makes "Lights" and the scope stuff appears to be a sideline for them. It tells you about their Warranty in a couple of sentences. Ask the fine folks at Leupold, "If I accidentally run over any of your scopes with my truck, will ya'll fix or replace it at no cost, other than me shipping the remains back to you?"  The reason Optronics can offer that Warranty is fairly obvious once you have one in your hands. But, the one I have is taking Recoil without a glitch - so far.  I bought Leupolds for many years. Still had to send one in for a repair on occasion. They are not perfect regardless of what propaganda anyone spreads. Ask anyone who has used them(not in the Safe, but actually used them) for 50+ years and you have a good chance of hearing about a problem or two. Sent a whole bunch of Leupolds back for them to swap in the HEAVY Duplex Reticle when they first became available. It was one of the finest things to improve Low Light Hunting a person could do back then. And back then the swap-out was only about $20. Or, a person could buy a cheap World Class Tasco with their Heavy Reticle as one of my buddies did. Then many years passed and Leupold began offering the Illuminated Reticles, I was still very happy with their products. Called Leupold to see what it would cost to send a bunch in to have the "Eye Piece" swapped out to the new Illuminated style. If you can picture a guy answering with his nose so high in the air that he would drown in a light sprinkle, "WELLLL..., you will have to just sell the ones you have and buy new ones!!!" Reminded me of "trying" to talk to Ross Siefried(sp?). Haven't wasted a dime on their scopes since that conversation. Have bought a good many "Less Expensive" scopes, and had to send one Millett Buck Lightning back. It was taking Recoil real well when I noticed a very tiny piece of what appeared to be Gasket Material near the edge of one quadrant in the Eye Piece. It was a bit thicker than an eyelash and about half as long. It would not have prevented a person from Hunting with it. Perhaps Static was holding it to the Eye Piece. Anyway, I contacted the fine folks at Millett and they replaced that scope at no cost other than Shipping it back to them. Leupold would have required the same, but sent the same scope back after cleaning the inside of the Eye Piece.And Millett told me if the Replacement Scope "EVER" gives me a problem, they will cover having it shipped back. Would Leupold do that?  Lots of excellent Scopes are on the market today - and some with a better Warranty than Leupold. Just the way it is. | |||
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Naturally all of the above efforts to make a rifle more accurate are of extreme importance and are interconnected, but I can tell all of you that if you don't have a good trigger, you won't shoot ANYTHING well. A good shooter can use an out of the box 2 MOA rifle and with a good 6 ounce or so trigger and EASILY outshoot someone with a 1/4 MOA rifle that has a 10 to 15 pound creepy trigger in, possibly excluding benchrest shooting with a really heavy rifle. This is obviously an extreme unrealistic example but it points out what to me is obvious, besides the shooter, if the trigger isn't any good, the rest of it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. The corollary to that is, once someone gets used to good triggers, it is really tough to go back. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I agree with Gatogordo. The trigger is first for me. Then it would be bedding, load development and optics. I have had some factory barrels, and non-Savages at that, that after fixing the above shot just as well as some high dollar barrels. As for scopes, there are lots of folks catching up to Leupold, and at better prices. Nikon comes to mind, as does Millett (which is made and serviced by Bushnell). But then I am fortunate enough to live within a mile of Bishnell headquarters and the factory outlet and service center. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Are you talking about pure physics accuracy OR what makes you a better shooter? 1. Barrel: Agree with you here. Clean accurate barrel begins it all along with a tight headspace. 2. Bedding: How the entire action reacts to the shot and recovers is next. 3. Weight: This determines how steady the rifle aims and lowers recoil and flinch. 4. Trigger: Improves steadiness 5. Optics: Last on my list. Better optics increases range. Eye sight is important here as well. | |||
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If you're talking the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle your list is fine. If you're talking about practical accuracy in the field then trigger (surprise break), ergonomics (stock fit), and sights (easy to use quickly) are the most important. $0.02 | |||
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Yes, absolutely, the intrinsic accuracy of the rifle is what I'm after. If I could do everything to every rifle, I would. Reality is that is just not practical. So I do what I can first. The main reason for me I ranked optics so high is that for me personally (and I feel I'm not alone), without good optics I have little confidence in where to turn next. If I feel the rifle is better than the scope I'm using I switch it to a scope I know is proven to find out. Sometimes it's the scope. Sometimes the rifle needs more work. I accept this isn't as important to some shooters as others. Say I've got another rifle I can shoot sub MOA everytime and can eliminate myself as the cause for inaccuracy on the rifle I'm working on. That's what I'm driving at. Build a better rifle, best improvement to least significant. | |||
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I don't have much to add to the list, but many Leupolds aren't made in the USA anymore... Love shooting precision and long range. Big bores too! Recent college grad, started a company called MK Machining where I'm developing a bullpup rifle chassis system.  | |||
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Really! Can you source this? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Point taken. Would piss me off if someone talked to me like that, also. I've used them for about the same length of time you have, and have had nothing but good service from them. I've hunted them in minus 20F in Canada, and + 100F in the Selous and everything in between. I had a smith mount my 1.5-5 incorrectly on my .375 and crack the objective. They replaced it with no problems and the scope has had at least fifteen houndred rounds of full house fodder fired underneath it. Holds zero perfectly, and I love the German #4 reticle on that little thing. Just took it to Africa in July and did fairly well. I also dropped my Browning 7mm while closing the farmhouse gate on one of those minus 20 days in Manitoba and it landed on the scope and bent the tube. The ground was hard as concrete, of course. That was an LPS 3.5-14 and they just sent me a new one, even though the problem was due to near frostbite and my own carelessness. I'm really sorry to hear about that attitude. I'm in the market, or eventually will be, for a 2.5-8 for the .375, because the 1.5 is going on the new .458. So I hunt them hard and they have performed flawlessly for me so far. | |||
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Hey jetdrvr, If I was putting a scope on a 375H7H or a 458Win, I'd give serious consideration to a Leupold as well. I would look around a good bit though and "might" go with a Bushnell. A few years ago I surveyed 24-26 Gun Shops to see which scopes they had people bringing back for breakage. The first guy I talked to told me he believed the "Leepers" broke between the scope counter and the cash register.  So we walked down the length of his scope case with him commenting on each of them. As we got to the Bushnell section, he hesitated. started to speak, and hesitated again. Next thing I hear is his voice over the store intercom saying, "If anyone has ever had a Bushnell Scope returned for any reason, call me." We went on and no one ever called him. Same with the other stores I called or visited. But every other scope manufacturer had returns. Still being skeptical, I'm guessing the majority of the Bushnells sold went on rifles with Recoil Factors at or below 7mmRemMag levels. But to think none had been returned at his store nor any of the other 24-26, really impressed me. Don't have a Bushnell under Test at the moment though. By the way, I doubt the Optronics would handle the 458Win. ----- One of my buddies in NC has an LPS similar to yours mounted on a 308Win Wby U-Lt. I took some scopes over to his house one afternoon for us to compare Twilight Factors. I won't bore you with all the details, but the LPS was in a Class of it's own. When we could see the edge of the woods with VariX-IIs, you could see the second line of trees with the VariX-IIIs. But the LPS allowed you to see on into the Woods. That is, or was, an amazing scope. Never had a good answer when people would ask me what I'd recommend for their children to begin Hunting with, from the scope perspective. Didn't take many questions to get an idea of what kind of rifle and cartridge would be a good starter for them, but they sure didn't need $500+ scopes to begin with. So, I've been hammering some less expensive scopes along with a couple of buddies just to see how well they hold up. And if a Warranty is needed, how the manufacturer responds. Anyway, I understand about the Heavy Recoil concerns. My most severe kicker right now is a 350RemMag M7KS which weighs in at about 7.25#. It has a HEAVY Duplex VariX-III Leupold on it. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills. | |||
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