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| One of Us |
Gents: I'll have to post my full report in the American Hunting section soon. However, for our purposes here goes: what is the appropriate standard for judging a round's effectiveness for the intended game? I shot my first Maine moose on this year's hunt with an 06 slinging 220 Rem Core-Lokts. Offhand at approx 70 yards, shot number 1 was called and placed on the right shoulder as he quartered to me. I fired, he took it, I cycled and he turned for the bog he came out of. I fired again and (mistakenly) thought I led enough tolung him again. Actually, I hit him in the spine ahead of the hips. He took one step and down in a heap. Three kicks, three gurgling breaths and I had my moose. Butcher told me the first shot drilled through shoulder bone and wrecked upper lungs. Makes sense because I found the bullet wound in the collapsed lungs. Never saw the other bullet wound but was told the spine was pretty well ruined at the site of impact. After thinking it over, the round is obviously plenty enough for favorable shots. However, what if a less than favorable raking shot for followup were required? At least that particular bullet likely would not have made it through a couple feet of moose. I'm thinking the appropriate standard should be the ability to reach the vitals from any reasonable angle. I intend to write the Maine IF&W and make a push for bore/energy minimums this winter. I saw some pretty shot up moose at the tagging stations shot with all kinds of things in all kinds of places. He dressed at 883 lbs. (making him roughly 1250 on the hoof), had a 53" spread and carried 27 points, BTW. | ||
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Haven't shot a moose yet, but I have shot kudu and gemsbok with a 7mm Rem, using 160 grain A Frames. DRT. The Norma 200 gr. Oryx Protected Point might give better results,but yours was a dead moose on the first bullet. He just didn't know it yet. | |||
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Cannons aren't really necessary to take down a moose. The 180 gr. is probably most often used out of the '06 for moose here in AK.....and a whole lot of people use less. I personally use the 175 gr. 7x57. My son uses a 7mm08....and the moose always ends up dead. A lot of people do go bigger and use the 300's and 338WM, but probably more out of the possibility of running into Mr. Bruin while moose hunting.  | |||
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I show a cow moose in VT a few years ago, with a 30-06 and 180 grain Nosler partitions. First shot was about 200+ yards a quartering shot, she took the bullet but showed no sign of being hit! She was surrounded by 3 bulls and I was S..t scared of shooting another one by mistake! Anyway I kept my eye on the animal and let rip again, this time it put its head down and was crossing to the left at a trot a final shot just before it went behind a mound in a clear cut dropped it. I believe one bullet exited as I found an exit hole. I never found any of the bullets though! I think a Moose is such a big animal, eventhough it's dead it just does not know it. It's not like a deer which drops head over heels. Doubt a bigger caliber would make a difference. I did have my 375 H&H on that same hunt, but got tired of lugging it around and decided to take the 30-06 on the last morning to change my luck when I shot the moose! | |||
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You have a fine calibre and round for moose. I would not hesitate to use that set up for moose here in BC. Moose can be phlegmatic, absorbing a lot of punishment without responding at times. Congratulations on your moose. He should provide fine dining for your family this winter. | |||
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The only reason to upgrade to a bigger caliber or more energy is to keep the bears off your moose, up here in Northern BC, at least. I shot a smallish bull at about 60-70 yards, took out both lungs, and only shot once. He only went 30 yards and laid down. I did put one more in the ear to put him out of his misery, but he was dead from the time the bullet hit him. That was with a 30-06 and 180 Partitions at 2730 fps. I am quite satisfied. Congrats on a great moose, BTW. Good Hunting, Graham | |||
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Well, the proof was right before your own eyes. Nothing wrong with the caliber. I'd assume most bull moose will be called in during the hunting season anyway. So shot distances should be relatively close. The 220 Coreloct is a big, heavy, slow bullet designed to mushroom fast and still have a good degree of penetration. From my experiences with friend's that use them, penetration falls second to their expansion characteristics. I would have used a premium 180 or 200 grain for what you are describing as a raking shot for insurance. My choices would have been a Barnes TTSX/TSX in 180, an Aframe in 180/200, or a 200 Partition. I believe the TTSX in 180 with a case full of Re22 would serve very well for moose and provide more than enough penetration. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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A friend of mine shot a moose with his 500 Westley Richards just to see if it made a difference over smaller calibers. Broadside thru the lungs..he just stood there as moose sometimes do. He said that there really wasn't any really discernable difference in the moose's reaction from those he had shot with 30-06's. I suppose that a shot through those big shoulders may have been different but there's more to eat there than through the ribs. | |||
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Moose hunting Monday and going to take Dad's .270 Win. pump. Selling my A-Bolt and don't want to put a scratch in the stock I spent hours refinishing. TSX, Partition or Accubond are all a good choice for moose or elk with a 30-06, 280 Rem. or 270 Win. All will deliver 1500-1700 ft/lb of energy @ 400 yds. Would not hesitate to shoot at 400 with any of them and those bullets if gun shot MOA. | |||
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The bullet the key, not the caliber. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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The .30-06 is a great moose gun. However the selection of bullet is critical for penetration on all shots except a side lung shot. I would recommend using a 180 Barnes or 200 Partition. I'm sure some other premium bullets are as good, but these have worked well for me and are available almost everywhere. | |||
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The most common round here in Sweden is 6,5x55 for moose, a bit on the light side but good enough. I would say that moose is by far the easiest animal to shoot. Large like hell, predictable movements, and not too bright or suspicious. You'll do just fine with a .30-06 if you can abstain from taking shots that are just plain stupid regardless of what chambering you use. Write hard and clear about what hurts -E. Hemingway | |||
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.30-06 is my favorite for moose. I've taken a few with the '06, some definitely less-than-perfect shots, and the '06 delivers. 180gr Partitions initially, then I tried the A-Frame which keeps it's front core intact much better, then finally the TSX which was the most accurate of the 3 and retains it's weight while penetrating deeply. ________  "...And on the 8th day, God created beer so those crazy Canadians wouldn't take over the world..." | |||
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In northern Ontario, this is moose hunting country primarily, and there are more moose taken with the .308 Win and the .303 british then any other cartridge. The .303 British Enfield rifles can be had around here for $150 so it's a great starter rifle for young and old. It's anemic and still gets the job done. A typical shot here is 100 yards. No need for super premium, super fast and super heavy bullets. A broadside shot with a standard bullet works well. That being said, I use the 210gr Swift Scirrocco in my 338 Federal at 2600 fps. Not crazy expensive or heavy or fast, just right I feel. My wife shot a bull with her .308 Win with loaded 165gr Interbonds and full charge of Varget. The bull only made it 75 yards. | |||
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Please don't do this. Moose can and have been taken by many different calibers. They have been taken by everything from small blackpowder rifles to large cannons. It is not about the gun, it is about the hunter. You can not legislate intellegent hunters. Don't add more rules. | |||
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Yep, I have to agree w/ ddunn. I don't like seeing min. this or testing that to hunt. Yes, we should all be so diligent to use the right caliber, bullet & practice, but that is on us, screw more nebulous govt. regs. As to your hunt, good shooting & congrats, but I suspect your bullet choice could have been just a bit better & your result would likely have been as well. I am not a 06 fan, but like the other, a premium 180gr-200gr would give better results than the factory 220grCL IMO. Try a Fed.HE load next time or handload your own 200grNP or Swift or 180gr Barnes to get the most out of the 06. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Have shot my own fair share of Alaska moose I can offer somewhat of a credible opinion. The 06 is a good choice but you need to wait for that classic broadside lung/heart shot. I prefer to use a larger caliber because of the possible bear encounters and I have a little more lee way on taking a shot presented to me that is less than perfect. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I shot one a few years back with a 200gr. trophy bonded bear claw loaded to just under We 2800fps. at about 100yds. The bull was quartering toward me and bullet hit on point of shoulder, smashed shoulder and bone, totally wrecked both lungs and exited just in front of the rear ham on the opposite side, 4 feet of penetration, with an exit through hide a 1/2" thick. We poured 10 or more gallons of blood out of him. From this I would believe that a 180gr. bonded bullet out of an '06 would do just about as well. I don't believe 20grs. of bullet or 50 or 100fps. in muzzle velocity would make much difference. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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And I agree with you Swampshooter. In the '60s and '70s when my wife & I lived in Northern Alberta, I shot quite a few moose. Matter of fact, for several years when we were still trying to establish ourselves financially, we literally lived on moose meat as a source of protein. Once a year as a treat I would buy and BBQ 4 porterhouse beef steaks, the rest of the time we ate moose...hearts, tongues, etc., for sandwiches, steaks and roast, and moose burger for dinner, moose sausage for breakfast,etc. We made pizzas with the stuff, lasagna, stuffed bell peppers, you name it. Goes good with eggs, too. Anyway, most of mine were shot with the .30-06 with RN Nosler Partition bullets at about 2,500 fps. I intentionally held velocity to that level because I had read an article which indicated that was the most dependable velocity for adequate killing power combined with minimal deflection by brush. Turned out it worked very well in the brush, to the extent any shoulder-fired projectile will. Even at that moderate velocity, I have had those Noslers penetrate the entire length of bull moose...shot one in the "sticking point" from head on,and recovered the bullet from just under the skin next to the anus. But, you don't really need an '06 with a premium bullet to kill moose, as you've already said. My very first moose had two holes completely through the chest cavity and out the other side (one shot from each side). The cartridge and bullet? A cup 'n core Hornady 139 gr. FB spire-point, fired from a 7x57 Mauser. Am not promoting that as a premier moose cartridge & bullet, but it will certainly get the job done. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Most of the moose I've shot have been with a .308 and a 180gr bonded Norma oryx bullet. As I said, moose are easy to shoot and a 180 gr bullet is also very very dangerous  Write hard and clear about what hurts -E. Hemingway | |||
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Please educate me a bit on moose size in Sweden? I understand they are about like our Shiras moose in the lower 48. There are some big moose in Canada & especially Alaska. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Moose are not hard to kill, but are notorious for showing little initial reaction to a bullet strike, no matter what you shoot them with. I had a Canadian friend who used to kill his moose every year with a .30 Remington using 170-grain bullets. He'd shoot the moose, then sit down on a stump and light his pipe up. After a half-hour or so, he'd go find the dead moose and begin the long job of getting it out of the woods.... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Dammit, didn't think about that.  Moose size varies widely in Sweden since this is a country that is quite stretched from north to south. The moose is smaller in southern Sweden than in the north. Average size of a bull moose is 450kg, 600-700 is not unusual and the largest known is 1000 kg. Write hard and clear about what hurts -E. Hemingway | |||
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I agree that a moose can be taken with a less powerful round than the'06, but the original question asked was what bullet could be relied upon when confronted with a raking shot from the rear, when hunting with a 30/06. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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+++! Proper shot placement is first and foremost. John There are those that do, those that dream, and those that only read about it and then post their "expertise" on AR! | |||
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I'll second this, don't add more rules. Think about this, 30-378 Wby with 130gn Ballistic tip and enough velocity to meet or exceed your energy level. You've got bore and energy but it won't work for anything other than the base of the skull, lol. A few years back a guy I know shot an Idaho Bull Moose with a 357 mag rifle and hard cast bullet. He shot it twice, but thinks one would have been pleanty with giveing it a few minutes to finish dieing. I worked with an Alaskan native for awhile and he said all he hunts with is a 222 Rem and said it worked great on Caribou and Moose. At the Linebaugh Seminar this spring in Cody, a guy brought a 9.3x57. With a solid it went over 5 feet in wet newsprint. I don't remember the weight of the bullet(280-300gn?) but it was loaded to about 2150 fps. Shot placement and the self control to wait for a good shot is probably more important than anything else. | |||
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I recently read an article about this very question, and in fact it was about a 30-06 with 220's. It was the first time this writer had lost ANY african game, and in his total party, they lost 6 animals. The article is mostly about the point of selecting the proper bullet weight, as much as the proper bullet. Just like you can go too small, you can also go too large. In the same article, when he used ammo of standard 180gr's...the rest of the animals were down quickly. While the 220's may work, and have worked before, the 180 seems to be the best all around balance. And remember, the goal is to put down the animals as quickly and cleanly as possible, period. If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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Okay, stern to stem penetration?  How about the Asquare 220 solid? http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=135448 | |||
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I don't think the question is quite that simple to answer. Too much depends on the impact velocity when the moose is hit, and the shape & construction of the bullet. Really pointy bullets often tend to change direction, or even tumble, especially when they strike at some angle other than from 90 degrees. Round-nosed bullets are usually a little better at continuing in a straight line, but they often are built to expand considerably more at a given low velocity, too. Too much expansion will definitely limit penetration...especially if it is so much expansion that the jacket is shed from the core. And, of course the more velocity at time of impact, the greater the probablility of either tumbling or excessive expansion. So what's a guy gonna do? Use a RN monolothic bronze bullet at a very low speed? Probably not, for then he likely won't get any expansion at all on many shots. That's okay, if he can rely on hitting and breaking the spinal column every time but how often can one really rely on that in the heat of the quick, hunting shot? My guess is that perhaps a Barnes-X bullet will give the best chance of deep penetration combined with reasonable expansion, but I am still not certain I'd say it will follow a straight line. Bullets often tend to follow the line of least resistance...at least that's what surgery experience suggests. And that line is seldom straight...it runs more along the seams between muscle masses, or muscle and skin, or other such "seams". Lastly, how far away the animal is when shot at may substantially alter the striking velocity, which may drastically change the penetration. So will whether a bone is struck, whether the bullet has to pass through a paunch full of wet grass, and so on. While I'd personally try the Barnes X, I'd understand there'd be no guarantees....and would keep my tracking skills tuned up. I'd also just plain avoid "Texas heart shots" unless I really, really needed the meat. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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High sd bullets with moderate expansion is the answer to moosehunting. First shot should always be broadside at the shoulder/lung area. Only a slight quartering make a big one a lot tougher to penetrate. I prefer loads that make an exitwound. A lot of leadcore bullets work very well, but a TSX might make you feel a lot better if you have to track a wounded animal and take the shot you get. My experience is that when someone has shot more than once at a moose, the conclusion is that the first shot would have been enough. As mentioned, they dont seem to take very much notice of beeing shot until they fall over, especially big ones. I have very good experience with Accubond and TSX bullets. Heartshots make them run fast, lungshots far and with bad shots they run for a long time. Taking at least one shoulder and lungs make less need for a dog. | |||
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a reasonable accurate 30-06, shooting a 180gr a frame, partition, barnes, tbbc, etc. is more than enough for moose. when i lived in alaska i killed all mine with a 270 win and either 130 or 150gr bullets. as mentioned, it's all about shot placement. and i whole-heartedly agree with the comments of those NOT in favor of possible action to institute bore/energy minimums. we don't need more rules. we need responsible/knowledgable and patient hunters. as they say, it ain't the arrow, it's the indian! | |||
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thanks fellas for the responses. I think I may have been a little quick and reactionary with my thought to write the ME IF&W. I think I was upset at seeing the way some of those animals came in to the tagging station I was at. The most galling to me was the woman who said she got as close as she could (?) while watching two bulls fight and then opened up with her 44 magnum rifle on the victor until she hit it. in the end, bullwinkle caught a slug in a big artery in his neck. yes they are ugly and stink to high heaven but they are a grand game animal in these parts and I think they desereve better. perhaps then what the state of Maine needs is a more stringent hunter examination; don't some of the Scandinavian or Germanic sountries make a hunter pass a shooting test? If we shouldn't legislate the weapons then why not extend the lesgislation concerning the hunter himself? we already require huntr safety courses. besides, such a central issue to hunter safety is handling the firearm itself. what do other forum members think? mandatory minimum shooting skills required to fully complete the hunter training courses? | |||
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the 200 gn nosler @2700 from the 06 is a good compramise, the 220 nosler @2550 will not penetrate as well as the 200 as the jacket is a bit thinner i would not hesitate to use either the 200 or 220 nosler Daniel | |||
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I'll bet the Alaskan natives using the 222 for larger species are head shooting. For that, anything works & is NOT praise for a caliber to hunt big game IMO. USe enough gun, use a good bullet & shot placement rules. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Please provide references for this. Have read a few tests where spitzer bullets deflect less against trees than round. Logic would dictate this to be true. It is a pointed bullet! Why would a spitzer tumble?
Please provide reference to these statements. Are you a surgeon? Are you providing war surgery reference or modern surgery statistics predominated by handguns?
That is what hunting is about, Meat. All the other gun collectors and shooters walking this planet taking lion, elephant, and bear etc. with a safe full of rifles are not hunters. They are sportsman. Or they are children still living in years past where new toys unwrapped on Dec. 25th provided joy. Not against shooting a bear. Just be a man and make a rug out of it YOURSELF. Not against shooting an elephant, if you live in Africa and own a big deep freeze. Often wonder how many people could be fed with just the money spent on jet fuel YOU use to fly your rich behind around the planet with rifle's that cost more than my truck. Yes, Were talking to YOU whoever you may be that does this non-sense. Stay where you live and fill your freezer, love you wife and go work if you need something to do. | |||
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Well AR Corey, you'll have to go find someone else to argue with. I am not about to spend several days going back through 60 years of various reports on bullet behavior to find citations for you. Also, "meat" is not all that hunting is about. I do not trophy hunt, but many people do. Others hunt just to be able to say they have shot various kinds of animals, hence "Grand Slams". Sometimes hunting may also be about self-protection, or the protection of one's family, pets, livestock or property. Still other times, it is just to proove to their peers or themself that they are competent at it. One final reason may even be just because they enjoy it; imagine that! I do not know what God thinks about all that, so won't pass judgement on it at this point. (You apparently believe you are God's personal emissary, sent to "judge" all those guilty hunting sinners, so I'll leave that weighty world issue to Your Eminance for resolution. I'll stick with the little stuff, like doing my best to keep me and my family well, paying off the mortgage, etc.) Interestingly enough, I just yesterday read a report which advises folks on why 220 gr. .30 cup 'n core RNs may fragment some times. It suggests they penetrate better at 2,150 fps muzzle velocity than at 2,350 or higher, and still mushroom quite well at that velocity, out to 225 yards or so IIRC. That from a guide who lived/guided in Alaska for many years. He goes on to describe why he uses that weight and construction of bullet in HIS .308 and his .30-06 in Alaska. Incidentally, he also passes on his views about why the .30-30 is still so popular all over the north, but I'm not going to type that all in here. Let's just say he believes the round is popular for sound reasons, none of which are related to being poor and unable to afford anything else. Anyway, I have read articles which claim the spitzer is just as good a brush bullet as the RN, and reports which say it isn't. Take your choice, or better yet, run some well controlled experiments yourself and write up the results for publishing somewhere. I stated what worked for me in the northern bush and why I used it. You are welcome to do the same. | |||
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Even if some bullets behave better than others through bush, its still no no unless for follow ups on wounded animals. In Norway you have to pass a shooting test each year to hunt biggame legally. Its not that hard, five shots inside a 30 cm ring on the vitals of a reindeertarget. | |||
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The lightest I´ve used on European moose is the 6.5x55 using a 150gr lapua Mega, the heaviest would be a 9.3x62 using a 286gr Woodleigh SP. maybe the animals run a bit further after being lungshot with a 6.5 but I wouldn´t bet on it. | |||
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Congratulations on your moose. Quite an experience.
Please don't do this. It's the nut behind the trigger, not the cartridge. If I was to use a 30-06 on moose, I would choose a 180gr in a TTSX, A-Frame or NP. I am not a big fan of extreme heavy for caliber bullets in any given cartridge for today's hunting, not when we have a whole slew of better designed bullets to pick from. | |||
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Actually, for 99% of the people that hunt, it's not about the meat. It's about the tradition & the hunt, not even about the kill. The meat is an aside for most, the hunting itself is why many of us hunt, JMO. FWIW, for those of us that have been fortunate enough or work hard enough to be able to hunt in Africa or other countries, we do it, again, for the hunting experience, not for meat. Please don't deride those that travel to hunt just because you don't. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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