My two best powders for the 150g Partition have been H4831 and Norma MRP. I've been using H4831 for a long time, just because MRP has been hard to find in some of the places I've lived. I do use Federal 215 (magnum rifle) primers and neck sized only cases (increases case capacity a bit) though. I seat my bullets 1/10" from the lands.

I spent some time today, while waiting for the Vet to float the horses teeth, reading through all my loading books. Actually found some 60 gr H4831 130 gr loads listed for the 270. Found I had a few 130 NosBTs around (a low resistance bullet) so along with the Varget/150 BSTs, I loaded up three of these with 60 of H4831SC. The data in the books all showed it as a compressed load which tells me they predated H4831SC.
Probably won't make it to the range until Monday.

So, at the end of the day, is it possible to realistically get 3050fps out of a 150 gr. bullet with a 24" barrel?

Or asked another way, what's the real-world difference between a 270 and a 270 Weatherby Magnum both with 24" barrels and both shooting 140gr. bullets?

I have no idea. Any Weatherby "small bore" will probably do better with a 26" barrel. I have yet to understand why any of these small bore hotrods designed for deliberate shooting have anything less than a 26" barrel. But today's fad is short barrels. Glad my 50+ year old 721 (26") 300 H&H and Model 70 300 H&H Bull Guns (28") were built before the lessons of the past were lost (to some).

Nothing with a .277 hole in the end is a woods' rifle for jumping whitetails out of blowdowns, a 358 Winchester Savage 99 carbine is.

Weatherby quotes 3320 fps with a 140 Accubond with, of course, a 26" barrel. Nosler's fastest quote for a 140 is 2910 fps with 53.5 IMR 4831 in a 24" barrel.

Famous writers have claimed 3000 fps from 22" bbled 270s back before everyone could afford a Chronograph. It will be interesting to see what my Model 70 22" can do.

The fast powder for short barels is pretty much rumor..My chronograph has shown many times its a fallacy..IMR-4831 is still the velocity powder for a .270 in barrels from 18 inches to 26 inches..

BTW, the .270 handles short tubes better than any other calibers that I have tested..Very little is lost from 20 inches to 26 inches.

You're right though 45-70, why they make 270s with less than a 24" barrel has always puzzled me.

WELL CROW STEW IS A TASTY DISH, I KNOW BECAUSE I'M EATING IT !

Four groups shown:
1. Is a control group using factory Winchester 130 gr power points. Lousy group but averaged 3020 fps.
2. Continue the Varget experiment with the 150 Nosler BST. 45.5 grs, great group but only 2620 fps.
3. Ditto #2 except 46 gr and 2640 fps.
4. Had some 130 gr Nos BTs (older version) which in any rifle have shot well. 60 gr of H 4831 gave
3025 fps and this tiny 3 shot group.









Looking back at JOC data, he loaded 130s with 62 gr of 4831 and 150s with 59 of 4831.

Came back from the range and loaded up some 130 TTSXs with 61 and 150 NBST and 150 Sierral SPBTs with 59. (both H 4831 SC)

May be "warm" but I rather doubt a new M 70 can't handle them.

Fried crow and eggs for breakfast !

Here is three 150 BT,s with 59 gr. of H-4831sc. No problem at all.

45-70, you are a good sport... I really am glad to see you find something that shoots lights out for you.

My own personal opinion is that JOC's load of 62 grains is too hot (I don't know how he got all that powder in a case, either!), but FWIW I shot a lot of IMR 4831, 59 grains at a time, behind 130-grain Hornadys, Sierras, and Speer GS before I went to the Accurate Arms powders. That load and a CCI-200 primer always shot exceptionally well for me.

Looks like you found a winner...

Three 140 AB,s with H-4831. Nice,no problems.

Here is five 150 SBT,s with IMR-4831 at 2970.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
45-70, you are a good sport... I really am glad to see you find something that shoots lights out for you.

My own personal opinion is that JOC's load of 62 grains is too hot (I don't know how he got all that powder in a case, either!), but FWIW I shot a lot of IMR 4831, 59 grains at a time, behind 130-grain Hornadys, Sierras, and Speer GS before I went to the Accurate Arms powders. That load and a CCI-200 primer always shot exceptionally well for me.

Looks like you found a winner...

Jack did not use H-4831 that we have today. He used military surplus 4831. He also never used IMR-4831. I perfer IMR 4831 over H-4831 due to better velocity wth three grains less powder.

Getting 62 gr of long cut 4831 in a case is right full up.Takes an extra length drop tube.

H 4831 SC packs much denser.

Yeah that old mil-sup 4831 @ 25 cents a pound in 30 pound kegs was neat. Back when the 25-06 was still a wildcat, our "Chuck load" was to fill the case to the top with a 24" drop tube, card it off and seat an 87 gr Sierra SP on top. No pressure transducers, no chronographs but LC 58' NM brass lasted forever and it was a serious varmint load in my bud's 26" P17 or my 28" FN. Great for feral cats too .... about cut em' in half.

Crow is not bad with enough Katsup!

Went out to test the JOC loads this AM. Also an interesting test of the Hornady Lock and Load Concentricity Tool was done.
Tried the 130 TTSX with 61 gr of H4831SC. Terrible!
Then switched to the JOC 59 gr load with 150s.
Both std WW and Magnum CCIs were tried with the 150 gr NosBSTs. The 150 Sierras used std WW as that's what JOC had back then.
Results:
1. 150 NBSTs w/CCI magnums
2. 150 NBSTs with WW primers
3. 150 Sierra SSPBTs







All acceptable, with no pressure signs at all.
I suppose given more time, I could try "notching" up the loads in THIS rifle.

Now the interesting results with the Hornady tool. As noted earlier, I bought a standard box of Winchester 130 gr Power Point factory ammo.
It shot poorly. For this test, I took 4 of the rounds and measured the runout as made. They ran 7-10 thou off. Using the tool, I got them down to 2-3 thou runout. The results were amazing (see below). For the shooter who does not handload, this tool could be a fine investment.
(The handloads were also checked but Redding dies in a Redding press makes pretty straight ammo)



Antelope opens in two weeks so time to start scouting and stop playing with a rifle I won't be hunting with this year.

What velocities are you getting?

3050-3100 with 130s, 2950-2980 with 150s.

Nice groups! I hesitated to list my loads as they are a bit uh warm ... The magnum primers do drive pressure up a bit.

there are lots of factors invived in velocity.
My little ruger , rl in .257 roberts puts a 100 grain barnes t shock out at 3107 fps, with H 414
. I think thats 46 grains.
My custom 03 spring field in the roberts has a 24 inch tube, and the same load is 2980.
Same load. I don't know why the 120 some feet would matter to anyone. The ruger is a lot easer to cary, but custom is real pretty, so i use both...tj3006

check your chamber and/or freebore in the custom. If it is bigger than the Ruger, velocities could go down 100fps.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
3050-3100 with 130s, 2950-2980 with 150s.

Those are good velocities with a 22" barrel.

Thanks, today I got my hands on some 150 TSXs.
Loaded them with the JOC 59 gr 4831 and Federal mag primers. That is 3 gr over the max listed in Barnes #4 book. The cases just ejected easily with no pressure signs on primer. 5 shot groups went about 1.5" at either 50 thou off lands 3.30" or the Barnes suggested 3.120". Barnes says RL 22 is the best w/this bullet but finding RL 22 here is: "oh yeah it's on order but......."
Probably try dropping back to Barnes max to see if anything changes but IMHE, the harder you push Barnes the better they shoot, as my 4000 fps 80 25-06 load demonstrates.

what barrel twist do you have? Barnes doesn't recommend 10" for the 150 TSX.

Barnes on line loading data says 1 in 10" for all 270 bullets. All M 70 270s are 1 in 10".
They mention a 1 in 9.5" but that is hardly a big deal. The 1.5" groups are just fine to kill anything shot within an ethical range envelope that one would use this bullet for. With a a TSX, a 150 would only be selected for big animals like Elk or Moose as a 130 will handle anything smaller as 5 of 7 the Antelope hanging over my head attest to.

I just did a calculation, too. It seems that the .277" 150gnTSX is only 1.377" long.

Stability is fine.
When fired at 2850fps in a 10" twist, it has a stability factor of 1.34. A stability factor of 1.34 is fine for a long range load. The only negative to this bullet is the .386 Ballistic Coefficient.

For a long range hunting bullet in .277" one should look for .4 to .45 BC. The 140 grain TSX is somehow better rated (0.404) than the 150 grain TSX. But only 0.018 better. That is rather insignificant, but probably the best Barnes monometal for a long-range elk load in this calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I just did a calculation, too. It seems that the .277" 150gnTSX is only 1.377" long.

Stability is fine.
When fired at 2850fps in a 10" twist, it has a stability factor of 1.34. A stability factor of 1.34 is fine for a long range load. The only negative to this bullet is the .386 Ballistic Coefficient.

For a long range hunting bullet in .277" one should look for .4 to .45 BC. The 140 grain TSX is somehow better rated (0.404) than the 150 grain TSX. But only 0.018 better. That is rather insignificant, but probably the best Barnes monometal for a long-range elk load in this calibre.

Good analysis, I've had a 270 Win for a long time and just bought a well used 270 Weatherby (my son has my 270). I've been shooting the 150g Partitions for a very long time and can only say wonderful things about them. I've shot everything from mule deer past 500 yards to elk and grizzly at less than 15 yards. They've always performed perfectly. Now that I have the 270 Weatherby, part of me wishes that Nosler would changer their 160 semi-spitzer to a spitzer, but until then I'll be shooting the 150g Partitions in both rifles.

Matrix has some very interesting High BC 165g bullets for the 270, but when hunting, expansion at all reasonable ranges, and penetration and not fragmenting at close range are my driving considerations. Since I haven't seen any testimonials on their hunting performance I'll use them at our 1000 yard range, but not in the field yet.

I am not a "long range hunter" as that phrase is an oxymoron. Hunting to me is outwitting the animal on his turf, not sitting at a benchrest at 800 yards while he is totally unaware you exist.
Lots of fun for gongs and appropriate for ragheads. Most who think they can buy technology and overcome all the variables involved in long range shooting ..... cannot. Most out of the West hunters (flatlanders) we see visiting are over gunned and over scoped. We seem to be losing the real joy of hunting which is being out among them, not playing at being a sniper.
There is no big game in Wyoming I cannot successfully hunt with my ancient 721 30-06 wearing a 4X Unertl shooting 168 TSXs. "If you can't get it done with a 30-06, perhaps you should not be trying it."
End of rant .... tired of having to put down cripples or finding the remains of animals eaten alive by wolves and Yotes because they only have 3 legs, no lower jaws, gut shot etc by people who don't know their limits.
Deadly and rather handsome:

Almost all of my shots have been under 400 yards, a couple of over 500. Most of my elk have taken been in the black timber at 25 yards or less. I shot my brown bear at 13 yards. That being said, BC is always important (mainly for wind drift).

quote:

I've been shooting the 150g Partitions for a very long time and can only say wonderful things about them.

I would have to agree, even though I went monometal 20 years ago. I've taken alot of antelope/gazelle and warthogs with 130 and 150 partitions in 270, and the 250 gn .338" partition was a staple of mine in the 80's.

I fail to see why we need be so scientific. I pointed out earlier that my 20in .257 roberts shoots a little
faster than my 24 inch.
someone sugjested i check the chamber. My point was missed. Barrel length unless taken to extreem is largly irelevent. What could you do with a 26 inch 270 you could not also do with a 22 inch 270 ?
...tj3006

Back on subject. I tried the 150 TSX with the H4831SC load and OAL as listed in the Barnes book #4. Fired the classic 10 shot group over a period of 2 hours. Briefly ..... it sucked. It also did poorly with 130 TTSXs. Seems to love the 150 Nosler SilverTip and the 130 Accubond. Never had such a picky M 70, but it is what it is.

Read somewhere that RL 17 was THE powder for the 270, noted a can on the shelf so tried: 54 gr, CCI mags, Norma brass @ 100.
1. 130 TTSX
2. 130 Nos AB
3. 250 Nos ST
4. 150 TSX

Obviously would kill anything within 300 yards, but RL 17 still can't match good old 4831 with the various Noslers.

Well, since you're having fun already,
try the 130 TTSX with 55.0 and 55.5 grains R-17.
(Barnes new data, 5th edition, posted 2010, goes up to 56 grains of IMR-4350. Nothing out yet with R-17)

And what you really should do is see if you can duplicate the 130 NosBT +60.0 H4831 cloverleaf. That is the load for hunting confidence so far.

Sorry, but IME, a ballistic tip inspires no confidence as I have seen too many act like varmint bullets on big game. The 150 Nos silver tip 150 is, so far, the best hunting load in this rifle. Next will probably be trying the 130 TSX as it appears, IME, to be easier to get to shoot well than the TTSX. It will kill anything I'd pick a 270 for within my self imposed 400 yard limit

By all means choose the most accurate between the TSX and TTSX.

However, you must also check which version of TSX you are using. 2010 and earlier had a version with a long ogive and .431 BC. In 2011 they shortened the ogive and now have a .374 BC.

So check out the 140 grain TSX, too, with its .404 BC. That one printed some most impressive groups in my rifle in a first brief test so I need to check it out, too, and see if it is repeatable.

45-70,

My pet load for the 270 win in the Nosler Ballistic tip, and H4831, and cci200 primers. We shoot it in over 1/2 dozen .270's with everything from 22-26" barrels.

With a 26" barrel and the 130gr BT's you can get 3350 with a max load. 3100 with a 22" barrel.

In the 22" barrel guns you will "hit the wall" were adding more 4831 will not increase velocity, but velocities will continue to increase in the longer barrels. It's for this reason, that sometimes you can benefit from a slightly faster powder in a short barrel, such as moving to H4530 vs H4831.

If you hack of 10" of barrel in a .308 from say 26" to 16", hold all else constant and run the QL sim, different powders will float to the top for each, but they will not be drastically different.

I also found that barnes bullets do not like H4831. As I recall I had to load up 4 or 5 different powders to find what they liked. IME the Barnes bullets seem to prefer a narrower band of powder then the typical cup and core bullet.

Quickload provides the following results @ 65000 PSI with a 22" barrel and 130 grain bullet seated .27" in case:

63.4 grains MRP @ 3217 fps

63.1 grains Vihtavouri N560 @ 3201 fps

65.7 grains Magpro @ 3186 fps

62.6 grains RL-22 @ 3181 fps

All of those are compressed, but none above 110%.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Quickload provides the following results @ 65000 PSI with a 22" barrel and 130 grain bullet seated .27" in case:

63.4 grains MRP @ 3217 fps

63.1 grains Vihtavouri N560 @ 3201 fps

65.7 grains Magpro @ 3186 fps

62.6 grains RL-22 @ 3181 fps

All of those are compressed, but none above 110%.

Those are some nice loads.

A few questions arise.

(I am assuming 270 Win, not 270 WSM, as the powder loads are just above typical 270Win and below WSM levels.)

Have you tested any of these for accuracy?

what does .27" seating mean? Do the resulting loads chamber in a normal rifle?

Have you tried the same with a slightly faster powder, say R17 or H4350?

Which bullet(s)? The various TTSX, TSX, and Nosler E-tips are all a bit longer than a Partition or similar.

Thanks
Tanz

Accuracy should depend on the rifle's preference, but no I haven't tested these, nor do I have a 270.

.27" means the shank is .27" in the case, or one caliber's worth. A "normal rifle" could mean many things. If your throat is long enough, yes they would chamber.

I can test R17 and H4350, I think R17 is going to be much too fast.

Reloder 17 57.3 grains @ 3171 fps, be careful as QL isn't always spot on with R17.

H4350 57 grains @ 3066 fps.

Remember, these are 65000 PSI, above SAAMI specs, but safe in a strong action. As always, work up.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Reloder 17 57.3 grains @ 3171 fps, be careful as QL isn't always spot on with R17.

H4350 57 grains @ 3066 fps.

Remember, these are 65000 PSI, above SAAMI specs, but safe in a strong action. As always, work up.

Yes, QL doesn't always mimic real-world R-17. You can see, though, that both it and H4350 use about the same amount of powder to reach 65000 psi, assuming that that is what your powder charge listing represents.

A remaining question is which bullet(s) are being used with that load?

Some of the .277" bullets have rather long shanks, like the NosE-tip. A seating of .27" would be stable in terms of the neck, but would engrave the riflings of standard factory produced throats. Does SAAMI have a recommended parallel freebore for the 270Win?

A better test might be the loads resulting from a maximum COAL of 3.34". Even there, many bullets are designed for shorter COAL's.