Been loading & shooting 1911's for a number of years now. I'm not any kind of a recoil junkie, but my pistols seem to shoot best w/ full house 230JHP loads, & that suit me to a "T".

With the purchase of a precision Remington .308 (700 5-R) About a year & a half ago, & more
recently a Ruger #1S in 45-70, I have become some what obsessed w/ high power load
development & shooting.

Both of these rifles will easily shoot sub-MOA off bags w/ the right loads. The 5-R is
obviously well suited to shooting from a supported position, but the #1 (at least in MY
mind's eye), should be a good choice for making real world, un-supported, off hand shots in heavy cover. I bought it to hunt our local brush country.

With accurate, pussy cat velocity loads (Hrndy 300JHP / IMR 4198 36.5) in the #1, I recently
started working on my practical off hand technique at 50 yards. I didn't expect miracles
right off the bat, but I can tell you, it's gonna take some work...

At any rate, last weekend down at the pistol berm, I noticed a young gent shooting a rifle
off hand, & bouncing small cartridge boxes around (w/ regularity) at about 75 yards. Yeah,
I'm nosey, & had to find out.

The guy was shooting a heavy barrel Briley custom Ruger 10/22, & a factory Ruger 77/22
Target model. After my congratulations on has expertise, he INSISTED that I try 'em both
out. Although I detest embarrassing myself in front of witnesses, I reluctently agreed.

Well,imagine my surprise when those small ammo boxes started bouncing around for me, as
well. Offhand.

I don't think that either .22 was much (if any) more accurate, then what I've been shooting.

Weight & balance seemed comparable. Not really sure what to think, but the results were
un-deniable.

My new friend (pointing at his 77/22) was adamant: "Just buy one! You can get 500 rounds for $8.00. Best way to improve your off hand technique!" Hard to argue with success.

One thing seems clear - practical off hand proficiency is going to take some practise.

I'm a practical guy. I believe in quality, accuracy, & versatility. Cost is also a factor.

It occurs to me, that although a quality bolt action .22LR rifle would be somewhat less
expensive to purchase initially, a quality .223 bolt action might not cost a whole lot more - & might be a better investment in the long run. A Remington 700 LTR in .223, comes immediately to mind. Ammo would cost more, but could be custom loaded (cheaper then either 45-70 or .308) semi-cost effectivly, for a wider variety of purposes then .22LR.

Any way, I'm still in the "thinkin' about it" stage. I'm hoping though, that I can get a bit
of constructive input from the membership here. So how about it guys - what do ya say? ;=]

Thanks in advance!

When I decided to do the same thing with my 308, I bought 1,000 rounds of PMC red-box ammo. It shoots 1.5 MOA from the bench in a rifle that shoots "good" ammo well under 1 MOA. But when I shoot offhand, the groups are almost identical.

You can do most of the practice you need to become a good offhand shot up close. Also, why use custom-loaded ammo for offhand training when what you really need is something you can burn in bulk?

22 LR all the way.


Okie John

GCF,

I recommend you go to a good shooting school like Gunsite and learn a good standing position and shooting habits under the eyes of good instructors.

This will equip you to shoot any rifle up to your and its capabilities.


Can you tell I just returned from a Gunsite Hunter Prep course?
jim

Everybody needs a good accurate 22lr! My reccommendation would be a Kimber. Put a good scope on it, tune the trigger if needed and shoot a bunch.
See if there is a 22 Silhouette match in your vicinity and try one out, they are fun. Match shooting isn't hunting but it can add a little stress which is useful in training.
The Low noise and non-existant recoil of a 22LR is invaluable in training. Another thing you might not have thought of is that you can shoot a 22lr in just about any indoor range so that you can practice in bad weather etc.. Indoor ranges that you can shoot 223's in are not that common.
But anyway a good quality rimfire is just about essential to any real battery of firearms, IMHO that's definately what you should try next............DJ

The best practice I've ever found is shooting gophers. I mostly use a tricked out 10-22 but do use my big bores as well. I have, on a good day, gone thru a case plus of 22 ammo (4000 rnds). This is great practice since these are so many shooting oportunities. It also simulates hunting a bit as the targer is going to move and time enters into the picture.

If you can hit a gopher at 125 yards 85% or more of the time I figure you're ready for big game.

Not everyone lives where gophers are prevelant but I would think that every local has some volume varmint shooting available.


Try it you'll like it.

I shoot thousands of rounds of 22 a year off hand. I have a target tree at 50 yards with 4" steel plates. I use a few differant 22s a 10 just for fun a marlin bolt and a mossberg 144ls that weighs more then all my big game rifles.

Great practice some fast some slow some closer some farther away. Really improves ones shooting skills.

I shoot offhand a lot with a .22 and find it to be great training. I can hit clay pigeons most of the time at 100 yards. I chose a Cooper because of it's beautiful wood, outstanding accuracy, and the weight and balance are very similar to my centerfire rifles.

Plinking (as apossed to bulls-eyes) is good to boost confidence in your own shooting for many reasons. One I find is that those who shoot paper targets off hand dwell over group size and question ability. When plinking you typically have a small but still "big enough" size target that is most likely to be twice the size of your regular groups on paper but still a lot smaller than the vital zone on big game. My shooting partner can break clay pigeons with regularity from 100 yards offhand with his stock M-1A and full power loads, yet when he shoots a paper target in the same manner so we can see the results the groups are less than impressive. With a reactive target a "hit is a hit" and more fun too.

Take a pass on the LTR in .223. Too heavy to hold up for very long. I just converted my .223 LTR to .308.

Those short barreled Kimber 22s are awefully nice. I picked up a barely used Sako Finnfire target model with scope for $650.00 last year. Awesome for off hand practice.

For less money, there are good aftermarket triggers available for CZ's and Rugers.

Speaking of which, I have a heavy barreled CZ 22RF with Leupold scope (4x Rimfire) that I will let go at a good price. I bought it for ground squirrel hunting for my girlfriend, but she still insists on using my CZ in 22 WMR. Grrrr.

lawndart
noak@direcway.com

You can take the cheap and plentiful practice concept one step further and go with a high quality air rifle. Easy to practice in the yard without hauling all the stuff to the range, extremely economical, and quiet. These rifles are extremely accurate and have triggers that rival the best rimfires and centerfires.

I'm going on Safari in Oct. My off hand shooting needed work same with shooting off sticks. I'll be shooting a double rifle with open sights and a scoped 375. Got out the scoped 22 and bought an unscoped 22 - I got lever action since thats what I wanted in a 22 and I'm a lefty to boot.

I've been shooting about 150 to 200 rounds a week (one day a week) out of the 22's and alot less out of the big guns. My offhand and off sticks shooting and my open sight shooting too, have come a loooong way in the last 6mo.

In fact its now easier - for maybe ten rounds - for me to shoot well with the much heavier rifles- wich have three or four pounds more weight and better triggers than the 22s, but a hell of a lot more recoil.

I think you idea is a good one since it has worked for me but I'd stick with the 22.

Also I love shooting a swinging litle 6" long pig sillouete I got from Cabelas as well as a self resetting swinging target I got there too. Beats paper and you don't get bored. I run out of time before I get bored!

JPK