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Does anyone know how many rifles Westley Richards has produced in 318 WR and 425 WR before WWII? Thank you Jim | ||
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Would have to get hold of their historical services. The ledgers tell the whole story or not ? The WR ledgers apparently are a problem as they were not well kept and there were two sets of ledgers, one set in London and the other in Birmingham. Apart from entries that were sparse in detail some have fallen into disrepair with missing pages. In my own world of "important guns" the WR stands out because of its link to the Boer War. I have a ZAR marked WR Martini Henry carbine in my collection. The Boers referred to them as "Wessel Rigaard" rifles. The 318 WR Mausers were quite plentiful in South Africa but sadly on searching one out for my collection I ran into quite a few but all their barrels were badly shot out presumably due to corrosive primers ? By the time Kynoch finally closed their doors the 318 and 425 was all but dead and gone ! The 9.3x62 likely killed off the 318 WR The 425 WR in their top grade rifle are not so common. | |||
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I think more like that the 30-06 and, certainly, the 8x57 with its 227 grain bullet had a lot to do with it. I have never seen the point of the 318 Westley. | |||
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The 30-06..... Tru dat  It killed off just about everything in its immediate vicinity and it still holds true ! Of all cartridges produced the 30-06 likely tops the list in Africa use. Before the 30-06 it was the 6.5 then after WW1 it was the 30-06 ! | |||
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I really love the 06. However, I have a soft spot for its modern equivalent the 338-06 for no particular reason even though I don't own one! | |||
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I've handled, but never shot, both 318 and 425 Westley rifles. There's a place for niche rifles, that is for sure, the problem with the 318 is that it was the smallest niche possible. In lighter bullet weights the "33" size is an awful long range performer. BSA's 33 BSA fired a 165 grain bullet. Over 100 yards it was, literally, a flop! | |||
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Yep, those were junk.  All The Best ... | |||
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Westley bolt rifles of the 1920s certainly don't compare in quality with Holland's bolt rifles of the same period. That is for sure. I've handled enough side by side to know. | |||
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I have a 318 WR double made in 1926. My only complaint is the lack of brass being manufactured. It's not difficult to make brass from 30-06 but still...... | |||
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Kynamco here in Britain make the cartridges. If they sell the brass I don't know. | |||
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Im thoroughly confused A 33 cal in light bullets is a poor performer past 100 yards ? So just to clarify: The 318 WR ( .330 ) is basically a 8.382 mm in a 30-06 case give or take ! It was offered in 250 gr bullet and a 180 gr bullet. And somehow this was / is bad ????? Now you go 8.5 mm in the same case and you have a 338-06 and that is ?????? what ? good or bad ? I dont know but a 8mm 06 is one helluva cartridge! | |||
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I think what folks are referring to is that a 33 caliber 180 grain round nose bullet has a horrible BC and at at 2700 fps and zeroed say 2.5 inches high @ 100 it is already close to a foot low @ 300 and has shed a whole bunch of energy. That's assuming a BC of around .220 which is the best estimate I can come up with. The performance is the less than the 30-06 150 and 8x57 180 loadings which pre-date it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Simple: In my world the 318 WR shoots a 250 gr bullet so effectively a 30-06 case with a 250 gr bullet! Im not hunting long distances and it will and does put down anything I shoot with that class of caliber ! Got two of them ! Love em to bits !     | |||
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Those are very nice but you were discussing the issue of light bullets and longer ranges a moment ago. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'm still not sold on the idea that a 318 WR (330) +/- 8.4mm with a light bullet is bad when a 8mm with the same or a 338-06 ( 8.5mm ) is somehow not bad ? The 30-06 case dimension ( or close to ) has been bored up and down and all have been great ! Over the years of shooting these old cartridges I can honestly say that they all hunt well. I have Brno's in 8x57 (8.2mm) 8x60 and 8x64 this is a evolution of the same theme.... a 30-06 type powder column give or take then up to 9mm and 9.3mm with the 9.3 x 64 at the up side of the spectrum We see the same argument over on the 458 Win thread..... suddenly a 350 gr 458 cal bullet is pure gold  Actually if you are not using a cup and core designed fot the 45-70 there is nothing wrong with a 350 or 400 gr in 458 ! Scale it down to 330 caliber and 250 gr is good ( and it is as many found out years ago) but when you drop the weight it's bad ? you can shoot a 225 gr 338 and its huge, drop it to 180 gr and its suddenly bad ?  a 338-06 with a 180 gr 8.5mm bullet will knock the snot out of a large antelope at 300 m as opposed to a 180 gr 8.4mm for the 318 that will not ????? Methinks not ! I shoot "modern loads" with 205 gr bullets out of the 318 George Gibbs and it does fine | |||
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Wow. Goose bumps. 30-06, 318WR, 338-06, 9.3x62. All, such super cartridges!! 30 cals! Oh, and don't forget the 35 Whelen.  I own them all, except the 318WR. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.... And don't get me started on the 350 Rigby. But I digress. Sorry. | |||
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35 Whelen ! Hell yes how can we ever forget ! 9.1mm ( more like 9.2mm ) in a 30-06 case call it a 9.1mm 30 odd six and there you have it ! 180 gr @ 2900 fps....... should do the dirty deed The problem with the WR is that manufacturers ( Kynamco ) under law is hamstrung by 3300 Bar = 47,800 +/- ft pounds loading limit ! Load modern using 30-06 cases formed and trimmed to proper length and this is a different animal | |||
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The 8x60S is nearly a double of the .318W&R, same case dimensions with a .323 bullet. Cases from the 8x60S are easily reformed only with expanding the neck - no shortening, no other changes! | |||
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Thank you for that but a small problem, outside Europe getting your hands on 8x60 Brass is difficult | |||
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I had an 8x60S. Prvi makes the brass and a couple of the European makers load complete rounds. Or, yes, you simply run 30-06 case through an 8x60S die to set the shouder then expand the neck, trim, load. | |||
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Thank you for that but a small problem, outside Europe getting your hands on 8x60 Brass is difficult[/QUOTE] PPU makes 8x60 and it is very good brass. I live in Canada and there is no problem getting it here so I can't imagine it being that hard to find anywhere else. | |||
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Snowman: Pray give me a PM as to where all this 8x60 can be had ! I live in Northern BC and getting components is getting tough. Not only Euro metrics but even run of the mill stuff. Stores are shutting down and are not getting replaced. | |||
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Well. .333jeffery had a poor reputation with its .333 cal 250grain bullet. Some how I think the ammunition was used on game it wasn't intended for. Why should a .003" make a difference from the succes to failure from the .318WR .330" cal with its 250grain versus .333 cal 250grain ?. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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If you want further confusion look at the array of light for caliber mono metal bullets on offer for Werner Rebs metric .338-06 twin the 8,5x63 & 8,5x63R based on the 7x64 & 7x65R cases. They obviously don’t work on anything bigger than a squirrel which is why Mauser, Blaser and Krieghoff are chambering them, the latter company offers their Classic Double rifle in the rimmed version. Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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It would be interesting, in view of all the speculation/opinions presented here, how many actually have field experience with the .318 express? DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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I suspect as with many other old euro's and Brits that the bullets of the day were not up to higher velocity shooting. The cup and core softs in 250 gr class were going just fast ( or slow enough ) not to fail The minute you dropped the weight the velocity went up and with that then failure of the poorly constructed bullets. I have seen this with quite a few. For instance the old DWM and Brenneke ( later RWS) bullets worked well in caliber like the 9.3x62 but the minute you shot the same from a 9,3 x 64 they failed giving the faster cartridge a bad name ! As to the 318 WR as a hunting rifle ! Works like a hot damn as does anything in that class ! The old Kynoch ammo came in packs of 5, we used to buy them from Groeneveld and Hicks in Pretoria. 375 H&H as well I remember them clear as day , they used to have a dark lacquer paint seal around the primers ! | |||
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I wonder how many lions, tigers, eland, sable, roan, kudu, sambar stags and big wild boar have been killed with Wesley Richards 318 250 gr bullets. I bet quite a few buffalo, gaur, rhino, hippo and elephants have fallen to this great cartridge. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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why not look to the folks who shoot a 338-06 for guidance as to its general effectiveness? who in the world could possibly poo-poo a 250 grain slug with a high SD and good construction leaving the muzzle at speeds between 2350-2500 fps to not be deadly on nearly anything that walks? sometimes the mental masturbation around here gets creepy. If I wanted a 318 and I could get brass why wouldn't I want to make up a rifle with such a gilded history? sheesh. | |||
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For Alf and others who need some metric brass. Tradex has 8x60 brass in stock along with many metric and some british calibres. Hope that helps | |||
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The .318 express was the most popular all-around caliber in the African colonies controlled by the Brits. For all intents and purposes, it was as widespread as the 9.3x62 was in German colonies. The available rifles were inexpensive and the .318 with 250 grain bullets was and is, extremely effective on african game. Reading any of the books by Taylor and other turn of the last century hunters always has favorable comments about it being a very effective round with outstanding penetration. While I don't have near the experience ALF does, I have used the .318 on safari on everything from goose to zebra with excellent results. If it were legal, I would have used it on Cape Buff. I loaded 250 gr. Woodleighs at 2350 fps and was pleased enough with its performance that I have built a custom rifle with a Lothar-Walther barrel . My wife used the old Vickers .318 on an impala and promptly confiscated it as her own, so I had to get another. With the quality of bullets now, any of the old cartridges can perform effectively in the field, and while my experience may be somewhat limited, I would not and will not ever hesitate to pick up my .318 for anything in NA including grizzlies. It is a great all-around cartridge suitable from impala to eland. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Well said, Lee. I totally agree. I only have one old, original WR rifle in .318, and it’s NOT for sale. ____________________________ .470 & 9.3X74R Chapuis' Tikka O/U 9.3X74R Searcy Classics 450/.400 3" & .577 C&H .375 2 1/2" Krieghoff .500 NE Member Dallas Safari Club | |||
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If I recollect correctly, the 250gr .333 Jeffery bullet was designed for use on thin-skinned game" on the European/Asian continents and it worked very well for its intended purpose. It's poor reputation was gained in Africa when used on thick-skinned game, exceeding its design parameters, resulting in "crappy" bullet performance. Simply selection of the wrong bullet for end use. Zero reason why a 250gr properly constructed bullet (constructed for the intended game use) wouldn't be deadly from the .333 Jeffery. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Could not agree with you more Capoward. The difference between cartridges that "made it" around the turn of the century, had more to do with the quality of the bullets constuction than about any other factor. The .333 would have probably been one we would still be talking about if it had had Rigby type bullets available. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Dont know what the issues are bout the 333 Jeffery ? The British military purchased a number which were used to defeat the metal armour plates the German snipers were hiding behind. Their machine guns had armour plates and their snipers used plates with firing slots in them The Germans ( and allies ) used personal body armour to protects them from small arms fire.... for the most they were not successful at stopping rifle rounds. | |||
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How does the recoil of the 318 WR compare to the 338 win mag? Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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like the 338-06 compared to the 338 win mag. similarly weighted rifles throwing same bullet weight I guess about 20-25% less. | |||
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I like the .318 WR, but its the guns themselves I like best, the 318 is basically a 30-06 with 220 gr. bullets in sheeps clothing..not a bad combo btw...Nostalgia helps make these kinds of decisions, those without nostalgia have not been blessed by the Red Gods of the hunter.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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RCC brass in Texas makes .318 brass, minimum order 20 pieces. was mr Rigby before a pc crash | |||
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I have one nothing special about it. | |||
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Any idea of the quality? $5.44/piece for the brass. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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