Does the 2nd ammendment protect firearms owners the right to the best hearing protection? Some European countries with agressive gun laws allow hunting with suppressors. What's wrong with the USA?

The 70 year-old $200 tax on sound suppressors would seem to need an NRA courtcase, especially considering the number of older NRA members with hearing aids.

So where will the breakthrough come?
Montana? Texas?
How and when?

So, what do suppressors cost in Europe?
Peter

I can buy a good quality suppressor here where the suggested retail price is around $300-350 and that is in expensive Norway included a 25% sales tax.
But some retailers sell some good ones for a really good price at the moment and I can buy one for about $150 included the 25% sales tax now.

We have rather strict gun laws in Norway, and I can only own 6 guns for hunting.
But still I can go and buy a suppressor to all my rifles without applying for them, paying any special tax or even inform the police that I have bought them.

So far I have suppressors on 3 of my hunting rifles.
I also have one on my 22lr, but that gun is beside my "hunting gun wardrobe" as they call it, and I only use it for practicing and to teach my kids how to shoot.

So basically, $150-350 for a sound suppressor, including the 25% tax. It seems the US wants closer to 100% plus some serious red tape. (Actually, back when the law was made, the tax was over twice the price of a hunting rifle. 70 years of inflation have brought it down into 'doable' range for some hunters.)

As side question to the thread:

quote:

We have rather strict gun laws in Norway, and I can only own 6 guns for hunting.
But still I can go and buy a suppressor to all my rifles without applying for them, paying any special tax or even inform the police that I have bought them.

If I added a 12-gauge shotgun to 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby, 338 WinMag, 270 Win, 243 Win, then I would have six. So if a family member owns a hunting gun, they probably can't be interchanged, or can they? For example, could a wife with a 270 borrow a husband's 375Ruger for Norwegian elk (moose)?

In Sweden we have also a six hunting rifle/shotguns limit. If your wife take hunting exam you can have six more rifles.You can have several barrels to a rifle it counts as one. Target rifles is limited to wich diciplins you are shooting. Here silencers need a permit and a serial number.

So, why do supressors cost so much in the USA? The $200 tax, amortized over 20 years is nothing.
Peter

quote:

So where will the breakthrough come?

in a place that is very hot and we don't want to go, just as it freezes over

I wouldn't even bring the subject up to our cash-hungry government(s). That tax hasn't increased since 1934. What do you think the government will do when they DO remember that? (Especially an "anti-gun" government?)

In 1934, $200 was 15-20 times a working-class man's gross weekly salary. Let's see, today's average working man makes how much a week? Maybe $600.00 or $800.00? And 20 times that is how much?

What good is a suppressor if you don't shoot subsonic ammo?

Paperwork is running 6 to 9 months.

I don't see the NFA tax changing soon...let's not give the b***urds any ideas.

And while the government is mulling passage of a background check for every gun sale, I don't want to give the 'lefty' crew any ideas of putting a tax on every one of those checks to "pay for the costs". If they do, "Katie bar the door"! Gun buyers will likely get screwed but not kissed, in that instance.

The NFA (Class III, 1934) legislation was enacted to eliminate full-auto, "silencer", and certain other weapons from ownership by any of the general public, without running a afoul of the Second Amendment. It was a $200 tax for what amounts to a thorough background check of any new Class III weapon transfer. I can see that a high tax on all background checks would be just as free of Second Amendment bars, justified at a VERY high figure by government cost accounting methods. And government might view it as a dodge useful to eliminate private ownership of almost all guns. We didn't think the Class III law would pass in '34 either, but FDR shoved it through Congress. Who is to say Obama wouldn't do the same, for "Public Safety"?

Again, it seems that NZ has a step up on many countries with sensible access across the counter to sound supressors, although unlike Sweeden and Norway we have only the usual GST (goods and services tax) of 12.5% that is applied to all sales of goods and services and the quoted pricce is always inclusive of this tax. Unlike these EU countries though, we are not restricted to a particular number of firearms except by our income and inclination. The firearms owner is licenced (like a drivers licence - there are different categories of firearms ) and then it is your own business how many of the particular type of firearm you have. Only pistols and military style semiauto's have to be individually registered, but the AR can also be had on a general licence in sporting trim. Sound supressors are quite common and are widely available.

supressors are legal for all hunting here.
big game, small game, target shooting too.
check your state laws.

Given the cost to deal in such heavily regulated items and the small market for it legalization could make silencers much cheaper. In the meantime, we have expensive silencers but the highest quality silencers in the world.

How do you determin quality? Havn`t seen any us sound moderator here.

I am awaiting my tax stamp for my supressor for the new Ruger 22/45 I purchased just for it. I applied in November and all I know is that it is 'Pending'whatever that means. It is all the ATF will tell you. They are leagal in more and more states to hunt here. Just made legal for hunting in Arizona. Since I wear a hearing aid in my left ear I welcome it. My Grandson in Tenn has one and they are legal for hunting there also as I believe I just saw Texas also listed as legal. Don't remember the price but do remember I was surprised it was so inexpensive. Mine was registered in my trust so the paper work was reduced but my understanding is that has now changed. Still no more trouble than when I converted my Thompson Pistol to a SBR by addding a buttstock.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
How do you determin quality? Havn`t seen any us sound moderator here.

Is an all inconel baffle stack with a 30-50,000 round service life considered a standard there?

Going off of what people I know who are in the defense industry have to say about Euro cans. Last I saw SAS was using SF 212 cans...

Most suppressors are made of aluminium or a combination of steel and alu they are made for hunting rifles and will only hold up for 3-5000 rounds. There are also all steel ones made for both military and civilian use idont know how long they last.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

If I added a 12-gauge shotgun to 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby, 338 WinMag, 270 Win, 243 Win, then I would have six. So if a family member owns a hunting gun, they probably can't be interchanged, or can they? For example, could a wife with a 270 borrow a husband's 375Ruger for Norwegian elk (moose)?

The gun license and "hunting gun wardrobe" is individual, but we can still borrow weapons from eachother.
So any family member that is old enough and has taken the hunting course can apply for a permit to buy a hunting gun, up to 6 for this use.

If I had a wife that had taken the hunting course, she could borrow any of my guns for hunting even if she didn't have any guns herself.
If she had her own hunting weapons, I could borrow one from her.
If she would be on a hunt that I am not, but using one of my guns, she needs to have a written statement from me that I let her borrow that gun.

I have other guns in my gun safe that is not included in my "hunting wardrobe", and these I can't use when hunting. Only on the range.
But I can let other hunters borrow one of those guns and use it for hunting even if I can't...

I have a Tikka M65 in 6.5x55 that is a great shooter and the favorite gun of my father and one of my friends.
The gun is not in my "hunting gun wardrobe", so I can't use it myself when hunting, but my father borrows it all the time when hunting instead of using any of his own guns.

This 6 gun maximum "hunting gun wardrobe" is totally stupid, but it is what it is.
I just wish they at least could increase it to 10 guns.

I also want to make a comment to what FAST996 asked: "What good is a suppressor if you don't shoot subsonic ammo?"

The point is not to be totally silent.
The main point to me and most here in Norway is to save my hearing. To be of less disturbance to other people and wildlife in some situations is also good.
It also often makes the other animals close around react much less to the shot, giving you the opportunity to shoot a second and/or a third animal if that is your goal.
Another bonus for many is that a suppressor greatly reduces the recoil of the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
Most suppressors are made of aluminium or a combination of steel and alu they are made for hunting rifles and will only hold up for 3-5000 rounds. There are also all steel ones made for both military and civilian use idont know how long they last.

I know.

What I'm getting at is that because there are two customers in the US (Security services and people who are paying $200 in tax and waiting six months to get it) our silencers are premium items expected to last for many years of very hard use.

USA suppressors vary from leading edge and very good to just average.

SureFire and AAC are two that use very expensive materials to make make very durable, very lightweight, very quiet suppressors. Very durable in the civilian world is driven by the high expense and general difficulty actually owning one legally. Lightweight, well who wants a 3lb barbell hung on the end of their favorite hunting rifle or humping that extra length and weight over hill and dale?

Sid, the stamp collector ...



.

I've got an Outback on my Savage bolt action Heavy barrel rifle. When I shoot subsonic ammo, all I can hear is the firing pin drop. I sit in my front room with the sliding door open and shoot at 25 yard targets (Nevada is Waaaay open) and my wife in the kitchen can't hear the gun go "click".

My hearing is very bad and I'd really like to use a suppressor on all my rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:
What good is a suppressor if you don't shoot subsonic ammo?

Where did you get that idea from? Silencers only reduce muzzle noise, they do nothing for action noise, bullet flight noise or impact noise. Silencers work equally well with subsonic or supersonic ammo; but supersonic will be louder suppressed and unsuppressed.

Ranb

You only worry about sub sonic if you are a close in sniper. The silencer removes the muzzle blast and the subsonic bullet can't be heard because there is no sonic boom.
In hunting you only care about the muzzle blast - the animals don't care about the crack from the sonic boom because it gets to the game after the bullet.

The biggest advantage of the supressed rifle after the shooter comfort of reduced noise and recoil, is that if there are more than the one animal about and multiple animals may be taken, then the direction the shot is taken from is not obvious. It is not unheard of for the untargeted animals to move toward the shooter rather than away from him.
While the sonic crack of the bullet is evident, it is not easily discerned where it came from where it is very evident where the sound signiture of the powder burn came from.