i had worked up a load for my 23" Browning ABolt 325WSM using barnes TSX 200gr (california...no lead) Used IMR8208 XBR powder because thats what i had. Got 2650fps and was well under 1" groups at 100yds. it was fast enough and accurate so i didn't go further.

Finally got time to rework some loads with an industry expert (world record holder, etc), and was encouraged to change things up and push the envelope a bit.

Final result after many hours was 70.0gr H4350 sending my 200gr Barnes TSX @2995-3005fps. Anyone else seeing similar velocities on the 325WSM cartridge for 200gr without any pressure signs? Any one else workup loads for 325WSM using H4350? The velocity range being so tight at +/- 5fps was very consistent and extremely encouraging on its own merit.

I post because while the WSM case was designed to give 300WinMag performance from the 300WSM case, so many results i've seen posted online show the 300WSM falling short of the 300WinMag. the velocities here for a 200gr bullet without pressure signs indicate a different story...these 3,000fps is what most see coming from a 338WinMag/300RUM for a 200gr bullet

tx
sky

Here are the simple facts about a .325 WSM:

(1) It has a smaller bore than a .338 Win and;

(2) It has less case capacity than a .338 Win.

Either of those factors taken by itself means that (using the most efficient powder for each) to achieve the same velocity with the same weight bullet in the same amount of bore travel (barrel length) means that the chamber pressure must be higher. When both factors of smaller case and smaller bore occur together then the chamber pressure must be higher still.

The limiting factor on pressure is not the strength of the action (which far exceeds that of the brass in most modern turnbolts), but that of the brass case. It appears that manufacturers (understandably) make the WSM cases both thicker and harder in the head/base area in order to accommodate significantly higher pressures than most other rimless or belted brass. This allows the WSM's to be loaded to higher pressures, thus achieving higher velocities, without damaging the brass, thus the ability to "match" larger cartridges without "apparent" pressure indications.

But don't fool yourself: Your WSM is necessarily running several thousand PSI greater than the larger cartridge in order to achieve the velocities you are recording. There is no free lunch.

Factories load the WSM series to much higher pressures than "conventional" magnums. Despite the stronger brass, I've experienced sticky bolt lift and unmistakable pressure signs with a .300 WSM using factory loads.

Another factor may be that you also have a "fast barrel". For example, I own a .270 Winchester which won't even start to digest as much powder as many sources recommend, yet it virtually matches velocities from the larger .270 WBY and .270 WSM. The same phenomenon is observed in a .243 I own; yet no amount of load manipulation in other rifles I own of the same caliber with the same length barrel will achieve such velocities without excessive pressure. If you have such a fast barrel (which is also usually very accurate), then thank your stars, but don't expect the next one to behave the same.

One other thing to mention. Until you have fired and reloaded your very fast loads in the same cases at least once (and preferably more times), you really don't know whether your pressures are sustainable or not. Just because the primer didn't pop out and the bolt lift was not sticky doesn't mean that your brass is not being stretched beyond its yielding point by the pressure your loads are running.

None of this is to say that you're not absolutely right about your loads and velocity -- just that you may be experiencing a couple of lucky breaks that let your rifle exceed the normal optimum for its caliber. That is certainly true of a couple of rifles of mine and there's not enough money to persuade me to part with them.

Looks about right to me. The 300 WSM falls just short of the win mag version. It doesnt surprise me that the 325 WSM would match it.

MY 300 WSM could not keep up with my 300 win mag that is true. I got 2900 with 180's in the WSM and 3150 with 180's in the Win mag.

My 300 win mag got 2990-3000 with 200's out of a 26" barrel mod 70. My 300 ultras would all do 3200 with a 200 grain bullet. 3050 with a 220 and 2850 with 240's.

I have been trying to achieve 3000 fps with Barnes 200 grain TSX's in my 325wsm with great difficulty. I am shooting a win 70 supergrade.

I can get 2900 fps pretty easily, but by 2950 there are pressure signs, and loads that reach 3000 fps show sticky bolt in addition to other pressure signs on the case.

I have backed down to around 2900 fps, but continue to explore other powders.

Having shot 300 win mag and 300 WSM for many years, I easily get 3000 fps with a 180 grain TSX's in these rifles, and my favorite load shows 3050 fps on the Oehler chronograph.

I bought the 325WSM on a whim, but hoped to get closer to 338 performance. I can't see using the 180 grain TSX in a .325, when it has a lesser BC than a .308 caliber 180 grain at the same velocity. The 200 grain seems a reasonable step up, but if velocity is much under 3000, then you really aren't going the right way. Overall, I am a bit disappointed with this caliber, but it sure is a pretty rifle.
Bill

thanks, all the feedback is great. few things
- i reloaded the same brass twice while doing the tests, fired roughly 50 rounds, inspected with microscope for pressure (not my untrained eye but my expert helper)
- COL was greater than factory just to the limit my A-bolt detachable magazine can handle without touching inside, thus greater case capacity
- all brass used were fire formed at least twice, so again, overall case capacity was greater with thinned brass
- i only resize the neck and bump the shoulder slightly, so again, overall cast capacity is greater than factory.

add it up, (still need to measure it) i'm certainly getting meaningful case capacity increase from factory specifications thus reducing pressure a bit...the comment about a 'fast barrel' means i had Mr. Luck on my side, id rather be lucky than good...takes less work Also the cutouts from Barnes TSX means less copper on the barrel so they did design the bullet for 'faster'

Llamapacker, did you try H4350, or go with slower or faster powders?

Skyvinny: You appear to be under the impression that somehow the capacity of the unfired case has an impact on the effective size of the pressure vessel. Not true. Any case expands upon firing to snugly fit the walls of the chamber, thus it makes no difference whether the case is at new minimum dimensions or fully fire-formed to the chamber. It is the size of the chamber that determines how large the combustion area is, not the very elastic brass case which lines it.

Think in terms of a garbage pail lined with a plastic bag, then filled with water: It is not the size of the bag, but the size of the pail which determines how much water will be held. The garbage pail is the equivalent of the chamber and the plastic bag is the equivalent of the brass case.

You also mention cartridge overall length. While bullet seating depth can have some impact on velocity and pressure, again, it has no direct correlation to the size of the combustion chamber, which is determined by the size of the chamber itself, as well as the size of the bore. Seating longer may allow you to get a little more powder into the case, but seating longer of and by itself will not increase the size of the combustion chamber. In fact, if you were to seat out so long that the bullet firmly engaged the riflings before firing you would likely experience a jump in pressure.

You mention that your expert assistant inspected the cases with a microscope? What, exactly, was he seeing that could provide an interpretation as to pressure? An electron micrograph might well detect a change in the grain structure of stressed brass, but that would be well beyond the capability of somehow looking at an intact case with a microscope.

To reiterate: I don't doubt the velocities you are achieving. I would caution that they are likely a combination of a fast barrel and higher than perceived pressure, however.

And although I'm certainly not suggesting this, there are occasions in which we get fooled by something like chronograph error. When you get readings that are either faster or slower than anticipated, it is best to double check the chronograph with a combination of rifle and load which has a known velocity. Something so minor as mismeasured screen spacing can add a hundred FPS to your readings.

Regardless, I'm sure that any large-bodied, warm-blooded game that might be on the receiving-end of your WSM will verify that it is churning out a goodly amount of energy.

i'm far from any expert clearly, so not sure on most/all of your questions...still learning and appreciate the feedback!!

i'm sure i'm on the edge if not over it from a pressure standpoint

testing was at 1000ft elevation, so i'm concerned that if hunting elk @ 10,000ft, this load becomes unsafe more quickly, so i will try to work up some loads a couple grains lower, and re-chronograph. certainly no animal in the world knows the difference of 50fps from a supersonic bullet of .323cal double lung shot

as for Chrono accuracy it was calibrated (in fact the test location has three)

still interested to hear if others are getting ~3000fps on 200gr from 325WSM, and with what bullet/powder/primer mix, and what pressure signs they are seeing or other feedback

quote:

Originally posted by Skyvinny:
testing was at 1000ft elevation, so i'm concerned that if hunting elk @ 10,000ft, this load becomes unsafe more quickly, so i will try to work up some loads a couple grains lower, and re-chronograph. certainly no animal in the world knows the difference of 50fps from a supersonic bullet of .323cal double lung shot

Altitude won't have any effect on chamber pressure (well, theoretically the lower air pressure at higher altitude would result in some miniscule reduction in chamber pressure, but it would be impossible to measure.)

Temperature, however, will typically have some impact, with higher ambient temps increasing chamber pressure. Loads worked up to the edge during winter may blow primers in the summer. H4350 is one of the ADI powders advertised to be "temperature insensitive", but it will still exhibit some variation with ambient temperature.

It is always a good idea with hunting loads to have them comfortably below maximum sustainable pressures. You see, chamber pressure is an average, and some rounds will spike a few thousand PSI above that average. You might happen to experience such a spike with "maximum" loads on the first shot at a 6x6 bull elk which strikes a bit too far back. Then, when you grab the bolt to hurriedly throw another round into the chamber you find that the bolt is frozen and won't budge with anything less than hammering it open with a rock. Sacrificing 50 or 75 FPS in order to assure that this scenario won't occur is insurance which comes at a cheap premium.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
For example, I own a .270 Winchester which won't even start to digest as much powder as many sources recommend, yet it virtually matches velocities from the larger .270 WBY and .270 WSM.

What velocity do you get from your 270WIN? Are you getting 3300 fps with a 130 gr bullet? If so what powder do you use?

quote:

Originally posted by Greg K:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
For example, I own a .270 Winchester which won't even start to digest as much powder as many sources recommend, yet it virtually matches velocities from the larger .270 WBY and .270 WSM.

What velocity do you get from your 270WIN? Are you getting 3300 fps with a 130 gr bullet? If so what powder do you use?

3250 fps from 24.4" barrel using 58.5 grains of original surplus 4831 under a 130 grain Nosler Solid Base (old-style lead tip). I've been using this load for a long time and its pressures are definitely within the sustainable range. The old "Jack O'conner" load of 60 grains of 4831 would create sticky extraction in this rifle; however I've seen lots of .270's which would easily take this much 4831 and still not top 3100 fps. Rifles are individuals and behave as such.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyvinny:
i had worked up a load for my 23" Browning ABolt 325WSM using barnes TSX 200gr (california...no lead) Used IMR8208 XBR powder because thats what i had. Got 2650fps and was well under 1" groups at 100yds. it was fast enough and accurate so i didn't go further.

Finally got time to rework some loads with an industry expert (world record holder, etc), and was encouraged to change things up and push the envelope a bit.

Final result after many hours was 70.0gr H4350 sending my 200gr Barnes TSX @2995-3005fps. Anyone else seeing similar velocities on the 325WSM cartridge for 200gr without any pressure signs? Any one else workup loads for 325WSM using H4350? The velocity range being so tight at +/- 5fps was very consistent and extremely encouraging on its own merit.

I post because while the WSM case was designed to give 300WinMag performance from the 300WSM case, so many results i've seen posted online show the 300WSM falling short of the 300WinMag. the velocities here for a 200gr bullet without pressure signs indicate a different story...these 3,000fps is what most see coming from a 338WinMag/300RUM for a 200gr bullet

tx
sky

Well, I don't have a .325 WSM & I don't shoot Barnes bullets. However, just for kicks, I ran your info thru my copy of Quickload. Just from the info I got, I wouldn't touch your load with a 10' pole.
Firstly, QL predicts 3002 fps. Ok, fine.
Secondly, it predicts a pressure of 76958 PSI. If true, it's way too much.
QL gives a Pmax of 63817 Psi and recommeds NOT loading above 90% of that.
With that info, a charge of about 57.0 gr. of H-4350 would give 2758 fps and 57836 Psi. - about 90% of max.
Also, just for fun I ran 325 WSM and 200 gr. Barnes info thru the QL propellant selection routine. Using 57836 Psi as the recommended pressure, QL didn't even come up with H-4350 powder as one of it's selections.
I don't think somebody paid attention to the pressure curve that QL predicted for your load.
Most certainly, were I you, I would rethink my powder & charge for this bullet/chambering combo. Listen to Stonecreek.
Good luck - not trying to bust your chops on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Bear in Fairbanks:

quote:

Originally posted by Skyvinny:
i had worked up a load for my 23" Browning ABolt 325WSM using barnes TSX 200gr (california...no lead) Used IMR8208 XBR powder because thats what i had. Got 2650fps and was well under 1" groups at 100yds. it was fast enough and accurate so i didn't go further.

Finally got time to rework some loads with an industry expert (world record holder, etc), and was encouraged to change things up and push the envelope a bit.

Final result after many hours was 70.0gr H4350 sending my 200gr Barnes TSX @2995-3005fps. Anyone else seeing similar velocities on the 325WSM cartridge for 200gr without any pressure signs? Any one else workup loads for 325WSM using H4350? The velocity range being so tight at +/- 5fps was very consistent and extremely encouraging on its own merit.

I post because while the WSM case was designed to give 300WinMag performance from the 300WSM case, so many results i've seen posted online show the 300WSM falling short of the 300WinMag. the velocities here for a 200gr bullet without pressure signs indicate a different story...these 3,000fps is what most see coming from a 338WinMag/300RUM for a 200gr bullet

tx
sky

Well, I don't have a .325 WSM & I don't shoot Barnes bullets. However, just for kicks, I ran your info thru my copy of Quickload. Just from the info I got, I wouldn't touch your load with a 10' pole.
Firstly, QL predicts 3002 fps. Ok, fine.
Secondly, it predicts a pressure of 76958 PSI. If true, it's way too much.
QL gives a Pmax of 63817 Psi and recommeds NOT loading above 90% of that.
With that info, a charge of about 57.0 gr. of H-4350 would give 2758 fps and 57836 Psi. - about 90% of max.
Also, just for fun I ran 325 WSM and 200 gr. Barnes info thru the QL propellant selection routine. Using 57836 Psi as the recommended pressure, QL didn't even come up with H-4350 powder as one of it's selections.
I don't think somebody paid attention to the pressure curve that QL predicted for your load.
Most certainly, were I you, I would rethink my powder & charge for this bullet/chambering combo. Listen to Stonecreek.
Good luck - not trying to bust your chops on this.

Skyvinny:

Must have been to much work to check a Barnes Manual, huh?

Dave is right. I shoot Barnes book loads in my 338 Federal that QL says are 75 PSI. QL is not that accurate. If you want to shoot Barnes bullets, use Barnes data. I can get 2800+ with a 185 TTSX and 3000+ with a 160 TTSX with their data from a 338 Federal. They chrony'd right where Barnes said they would.

Thanks Dave for the insight, if it was within the parameters of the Barnes manual, Hogdon website data, etc little reason to post here...but we all know manual data is generalist, each rifle has its own personality.

i do appreciate those with positive comments and will act accordingly. I've no desire to risk blowing up a cartridge or injury.

I guess the choice is clear, if i want to consistently and safely get 3000fps on a 200gr bullet in the mid-caliber range, i should buy a new gun! Any excuse for buying a new gun, must be a good one

I have a kimber 325 and worked up a load of 67gr H4350 with a 200grTSX I did'nt work up any higher because that is the max from the hodgdons site it gave me high 2800s.

except olin i never read that a .323 can be a .338 ....!!!!

but in the same time the 325wsm is equivalent to the 8x68s not a bad relative ....

quote:

Originally posted by Skyvinny:
Thanks Dave for the insight, if it was within the parameters of the Barnes manual, Hogdon website data, etc little reason to post here...but we all know manual data is generalist, each rifle has its own personality.

i do appreciate those with positive comments and will act accordingly. I've no desire to risk blowing up a cartridge or injury.

I guess the choice is clear, if i want to consistently and safely get 3000fps on a 200gr bullet in the mid-caliber range, i should buy a new gun! Any excuse for buying a new gun, must be a good one

If I recall it correctly, there is an old saying that there are old handloaders and bold handloaders, but there are no old bold handloaders