Gents,

I need a reduced load suitable for a slightly built 14 year old who will be after his first deer.

I do not own a rifle smaller than a .308 Winchester and there will not be time to arrange for one before the trip.

I have a 30.06 that has a suppressor fitted, with this suppressor it kicks about like a 243.

The 308 is a Varmint rifle but has more felt kick, to me at least, than the 30.06.

I have H4895, RL15 and BL-C(2) and a supply of 125 grain sierra bullets.

I'm thinking a nice downloaded version would suit the purpose but am not sure which rifle would be better to develop it in.

The 308 has a smaller case but the 30.06 has that suppressor.

Advice on which one and any mature load data would be much appreciated.

With thanks,

Amir

If you are set on using one of the three powders mentioned ,you might try 46 grains of H 4895. It might get you 2850FPS. in a 24 " barrel and quite possibly it will be a little sooty. It may be worth a try. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If you are set on using one of the three powders mentioned ,you might try 46 grains of H 4895. It might get you 2850FPS. in a 24 " barrel and quite possibly it will be a little sooty. It may be worth a try. roger

Super stuff Bartsche, just what I was after.

I'm not worried about sooty cases as this won't be a regular thing.

Is your load above for the 06 or the 308?

I think it's the 06?

The chief advantage of the powders above is that I have them!

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Gents,

I need a reduced load suitable for a slightly built 14 year old who will be after his first deer.

.....

The 308 has a smaller case but the 30.06 has that suppressor.

Advice on which one and any mature load data would be much appreciated.

With thanks,

Amir

Amir,

Buy a box or 2 of these Remington "Managed-Recoil" factory loads and let him test'em before you go to trouble and expense of reloading.

http://www.remington.com/produ.../managed-recoil.aspx

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H48...%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

Sorry I missed your post Mike, thank you for the link.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Gents,

I need a reduced load suitable for a slightly built 14 year old who will be after his first deer.

.....

The 308 has a smaller case but the 30.06 has that suppressor.

Advice on which one and any mature load data would be much appreciated.

With thanks,

Amir

Amir,

Buy a box or 2 of these Remington "Managed-Recoil" factory loads and let him test'em before you go to trouble and expense of reloading.

http://www.remington.com/produ.../managed-recoil.aspx

Thank you Ray but there doesn't appear to be a box of that stuff anywhere in the south of England...

One shop asked me if I want to back-order, at £42 a box...

I don't know the velocity but when my wife appropriated my relatively light weight Ruger M77 RSI, I loaded 25.0 gr. of IMR-4895 under a 150 gr. Winchester Power Point bullet for her to practice with. The plan was for her to use that to learn the rifle and just before der season I'd sneak out to the range and properly sight the gun in with the full power hunting load.
In your case you could do the same and just switch to a starting load for the 125 or 150 gr. bullet of choice. Five will get you ten he won't notice the kick as all when taking his shot at the deer. FWIW, my wife is exremely recoil sensitive and she never noticed the increase when sh shot her deer.
Paul B.

I used a minimun load of RL-15 with a 130 Barnes TSX in a 300 WSM for my youngest daughter. She shot 4 deer with it. I bumped her to 150 TTSX with full throttle RL-19 loads for elk just last year.
The 130 in the 300 wsm recoils less than the 150 in my .308 win.
Reduce the bullet weight and go minimum on the powder charge and you'll have acceptable recoil levels with your '06 with a brake.
Just my 2 cents.. whatever it's worth.
Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

Thank you Ray but there doesn't appear to be a box of that stuff anywhere in the south of England...

One shop asked me if I want to back-order, at £42 a box...

LOL - I'm sorry!
I did not take time to catch your location.

Ghubert,

I don't have a 125gr load recommendation for you. But I am in the same spot as you are with my own 14 year old. A couple of years ago I started him on a .308 Winchester in a junior sized rifle that has a muzzle brake on it.

He's outgrown that rifle and I recently bought him a Tikka. He's big enough to handle the rifle, but he's a skinny kid.

I started him on 150gr bullets in the lightest loads recommended in the manual. I also put a PAST shooting pad on him. Gradually the loads were worked up and he's now shooting full power 165gr loads with no shooting pad. I think if you just keep time at the range fairly minimum, 5-10 shots they get used to it pretty quickly.

Well, as far as load goes, h4895 is one of the best powders for reduced loads in either cartridge. There is data already listed here and all over online. My biggest concern would be about the rifle itself. I assume the 308 varmint rifle has a heavy barrel. Don't make a slight buid 14 year old haul that much gun around. If the 30-06 is a lighter weight rifle, use IT for sure. The suppressor and light loads together would make the rifle a putty-tat to shoot!! You could also have the kid handle and feel both and see which one he thinks feels better to him.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Gents,

I need a reduced load suitable for a slightly built 14 year old who will be after his first deer.

.....

The 308 has a smaller case but the 30.06 has that suppressor.

Advice on which one and any mature load data would be much appreciated.

With thanks,

Amir

Amir,

Buy a box or 2 of these Remington "Managed-Recoil" factory loads and let him test'em before you go to trouble and expense of reloading.

I've dissected those factory loads Amir...

in 06, they contain 36 grains of IMR 4198 powder..

for youth loads try anywhere from 25 grains up to the 36 grains of IMR 4198...or RL 7

as far as for my own son as he was growing, I used 30 grains of IMR 4198 with a large rifle primer, no filler, and a 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip...

he migrated to a load of 35 grains and a 150 grain Ballistic tip in his 06, when he turned 16...

I've used the same loads many times afield myself as they are more than adequate for deer sized game out to 250 yds all day long...

Amir, what kind of recoil pad do you have on the young ladies rifle?

Amir,

Just checked an older edition of the Speer manual and came up with the following. Been on travel for work all last week otherwise this would have been off to you earlier.

Nothing for the 125 gr specifically, but...

For the .308 with a 130 gr bullet with 25 gr of IMR 4227 gets you right at 2100 fps.

In the .30-06 with a 110 gr bullet with 20 gr of SR4759 gets you 1800 fps and with a 150 gr bullet with 20 to 24 gr of SR4759 gets you 1700 to 2000 fps. Split the difference for the 125 grainer.

Start with either and you should be good to go.

Don

Thank you for your posts gents.

Paul,

Thanks for the info, rifle weight was a big factor for the lad in question though he manned up considerably after he got a taste for it!

Zeke,

A 300 WSM as a young lady's first deer rifle?

Sir, I salute you!

Ray,

Hey no need to apologise, in fact a bloody travesty that the gunshop doesn't have them... We really have it rather shabbily over hear compared to what you might be used to.

7MMnut,

As it turned out the young man in question, the son of a good friend, did not have a shot at the deer but despite taping a cheekpiece made of foam rubber to it, it was apparent that the length of pull was too long and the rifle too heavy at around 9 1/2 pounds with moderator, scope and full magazine. It should be noted that it he did not carry it stalking but sat up with a pair of sticks adjusted for height. Your idea of getting a physically smaller rifle is the way forward I think as he handled my 6 lb .22RF bolt much more comfortably and in fact shot his first game animal, a buck rabbit, from sticks at around 50 yards. No mean shot for a neophyte!

Bluecan,

Thanks buddy, your comments about weight ring all too true. I think I just completely overestimated the ability of a kid of his size and age to handle a full-size rifle. some sort of .222 in a light, trim rifle would be just right.

John,

Thanks bud, I went with Bartsche's H4895 load in the end as I had all the bits in the end but that's good to note for future reference.

I can report that 46grains of H4895 behind sierra 125gr SP in Norma cases and CCI 200 primers seated to 3.150" shoot well in my very limited tests, about 4" at 200 yards where they dropped about 7-8" from a 100 yard zero.

The cases were sooty but I will just clean the chamber.

AS,

The recoil pad is probably as wholly unsuitable as the rifle was, being the Sako type firm-ish black rubber.

I hear the Pachmyer ones are supposed to be pretty good?

Don,

Thanks for your help buddy, apologies for the tardiness of my response but it's a bit hectic here at the moment.

Those loads look very handy as the 4895 loads are good but ideally, I'd prefer not to clean the soot and maybe shoot the reduced load myself more often.

When are you visiting us?

Between the German and UK contingent I'm sure you'd have a decent time of it.

Best,

Amir

Amir,

Not soon enough for a visit, I'm afraid. I will stop by Gerry's on the way to Cape Town next month. I was supposed to be with him and the gang in Namibia, but a gearbox in the SUV and the taxman put the brakes on that.

I just missed the AR weekend, I was in Fatherland, but could not get across the Channel with the work schedule. Such is my life, close, but no cigar. LOL

I do, however, plan on being back in Reno for SCI in January. Fancy a pint?

Hectic is normal for yours truly, on the road for work about 170 days a year. So, I understand the tardiness - no big deal.

Regards,

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Nevadan:
Amir,

Not soon enough for a visit, I'm afraid. I will stop by Gerry's on the way to Cape Town next month. I was supposed to be with him and the gang in Namibia, but a gearbox in the SUV and the taxman put the brakes on that.

I just missed the AR weekend, I was in Fatherland, but could not get across the Channel with the work schedule. Such is my life, close, but no cigar. LOL

I do, however, plan on being back in Reno for SCI in January. Fancy a pint?

Hectic is normal for yours truly, on the road for work about 170 days a year. So, I understand the tardiness - no big deal.

Regards,

Don

Shame to have missed you Dan, you're always welcome on my little patch over if you do make it, even for work.

I'll see if I can make the SCI meet, I've heard wonderful things about it of course and need to pull my finger out and just get over there.

That first pint will be on me mate.

Regards,

Amir

Amir, I've had good luck with the Pachmyers. All of my hunting rifles are wearing Pachmyers. A good recoil pad will generally make more of a difference then a light load. Put the two together and she will be stacking up the deer in no time.

I love the 30BR both as a varmint for score competition rifle and as a hunting rifle. I built one on a Mod 7 about 8 yrs ago for my young Grandson. It was originally a 6BR with a brake. The report bothered him more than the recoil. I used a 15 twist barrel and throated it for 125 grain Ballistic Tips. With 34 grains of H4198 it shoots 2950FPS and is deadly accurate. Not much recoil. He has taken 8 deer and about 20 hogs. All one shot kills. As big as he is now, he will not let me rechamber it or build him a larger caliber rifle. He said why? Everytime I pull the trigger the animal is dead.
He loves to shoot my 458Lott and my 450Ackley Magnum. I use him to sight them in.
I have 2 30BR reamers, one tight neck and one with a factory type neck. I have shipped reamers to the UK before for acquaintances to use.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I love the 30BR both as a varmint for score competition rifle and as a hunting rifle. I built one on a Mod 7 about 8 yrs ago for my young Grandson. It was originally a 6BR with a brake. The report bothered him more than the recoil. I used a 15 twist barrel and throated it for 125 grain Ballistic Tips. With 34 grains of H4198 it shoots 2950FPS and is deadly accurate. Not much recoil. He has taken 8 deer and about 20 hogs. All one shot kills. As big as he is now, he will not let me rechamber it or build him a larger caliber rifle. He said why? Everytime I pull the trigger the animal is dead.
He loves to shoot my 458Lott and my 450Ackley Magnum. I use him to sight them in.
I have 2 30BR reamers, one tight neck and one with a factory type neck. I have shipped reamers to the UK before for acquaintances to use.

Thanks Butch,

A friend has a 30BR built in Tubbs chassis ( but with a sporter weight barrel, it was an experiment that didn't work out...) and that has no recoil to speak of, a little bit more than a .223 IMO.

The boy will have a rifle built for him by his father, probably something like a .222 for the smaller deer and will grow into one of his father's rifles very soon I'm sure.

I was toying with the idea of a .30br culling rifle but we have muzzle energy limits on larger species which would make it problematic.

It was hell on foxes from shooting it with my friend, ought to do very well on deer too.

If you do not have time to develop a load, or for you guys that do not reload the Remington managed Recoil loads and the Federal Low Recoil loads work great.

The wife and I use the Federal 30/06 Low Recoil load in our Drillings to kill deer and pigs.

My nephew and I have killed several deer and several pigs with the Remington Managed Recoil load in 308.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ghubert:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by butchlambert:
I love the 30BR both as a varmint for score competition rifle and as a hunting rifle.
I was toying with the idea of a .30br culling rifle but we have muzzle energy limits on larger species which would make it problematic.[QUOTE]
My wildcat 7.62X41 Long throat more than duplicates the 30-30 and reaches out a good bit farther with the pointed bullets. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ghubert:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by butchlambert:
I love the 30BR both as a varmint for score competition rifle and as a hunting rifle.
I was toying with the idea of a .30br culling rifle but we have muzzle energy limits on larger species which would make it problematic.[QUOTE]
My wildcat 7.62X41 Long throat more than duplicates the 30-30 and reaches out a good bit farther with the pointed bullets. roger

I've not heard of that wildcat Roger, what's it based on?

Wildcat cartridges are becoming increasingly popular in the UK, spearheaded by things like the Ackley versions of standard cartridges. What i'm trying to say is that the bits wouldn't impossible to get as long we can still import the reamers.

Is it a bit like the 7.62x39 but with a standard .308 bore and a bit more poke?

What action have you got it in?

Best,

Amir

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ghubert:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ghubert:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by butchlambert:


I've not heard of that wildcat Roger, what's it based on?

Wildcat cartridges are becoming increasingly popular in the UK, spearheaded by things like the Ackley versions of standard cartridges. What i'm trying to say is that the bits wouldn't impossible to get as long we can still import the reamers.

Is it a bit like the 7.62x39 but with a standard .308 bore and a bit more poke?

What action have you got it in?

Best,

It's a wildcat I designed in the late 50s early 60s but didn't build until the early 80s. The first one was built on a mod. 98 action the second on a Savage action.It is a cut down .308 with a 26.5 degree shoulder and slightly blown out. There are four in that series: 7mm, .358 and .375. The 26.5 degree shoulder allows each to use the same head space gauges and have a one caliber neck length. They all were long throated to facilitate use of long for caliber bullets not pushed into the powder room. Fun project to be sure. roger

That sounds great Roger.

Does it fit standard short action or could it be shoe-horned into say a CZ 527?

I had a play shortening some 30.06 cases to 308 length (purely for the sake of experiment) and found that the necks ended up too thick and needed annealing or they'd crack. Is this case with yours?