So here are the important starting facts

Weatherby Vanguard

308 Win 24"

B&C Medallist stock

3.5 boxes of ammo now shot through it.

I went to test out some elk ammo to use this as my back up gun this year. I had some 150gr SST's left over from antelope hunting so I wanted to pop those off first. This is off a pre-sighted, cleaned and cold barrel.

First shot goes dead center of the target. 2nd shot goes 5" high straight above it. 3rd shot goes down about 1", then the next 3 shots go 1/2" to the right and print all three shots within 1".

Odd, I figured. I let the barrel completely cool down, but it is fouled now. I changed over to the next ammo which was Nosler Trophy Grade 165gr AB's.

Same thing, almost. First shot goes 5" high, then 3" low straight down, then the next 3 shots ....well, 2 went into 1 hole and the other 1 is touching!!!

Cooled, shot on the same target again...and again...first shot went up by the first, then 3.5" down, then to the right for about a 1" group. And then I started tinkering with the scope.

The last 2 rounds I shot out of a warmed but now fairly dirty barrel went about 1.15" exactly where I wanted them, about 2.3" high at 100 yards.

So, what the hell might be going on here? I am taking ammo out of the scenario, because really what are the odds that 2 different boxes, from 2 different manufacturers, with 2 different bullets, in 2 different weights....basically perform the same way?

The Medallist stock is a full alum. bedding block, but I did not glass it. Its not the scope or scope mounts, because the consistent repetition wouldn't indicate a scope issue...I'd think at least.

Some guys on my other forum are thinking that the barrel might need some positive upward pressure? The factory stock does touch the barrel at the very end of the stock, but that is it. Normally, I'd think the stock could be an issue...however, this is the exact same stock that Howa puts on the Vanguard SUB-MOA rifles. And those actions aren't any different at all from the regular Vanguards, they just test fired better groups so they got selected to cost more money.

I'm open to suggestions. HELP!

Sounds to me like you have a "something is touching somewhere" problem that is temperature related. Is the barrel free floated, check to make sure you have clearance from forend tip to an inch or two in front of the front action ring. HTH --- John303.

Just out of curiosity, how long had it been since you last previously fired that rifle at a target? I think you mentioned you had used it last year? Had it been shot at a paper target since then?

No this is a gun I recently purchased. 3 weeks ago I shot it for the first time, but I blew through a box of Federal cheap stuff sighting in to finally notice that I had not tightened the scope down all the way. We fixed that at the range, and I went through my box of Superformance getting it back on paper and sighted in. I bought another box of the same ammo to use hunting. This was my left over antelope ammo, it was from a trip last week.

John303,

Yup, I'm good and clear on the barrel. Its not touching anything.

1. Make sure the actions screws are tight. With an aluminum bedding block stock I would torque 60-80lbs.

You can try some forend tip pressure.

2. Scope issues would be high on the suspect list also.

For it to be jumping around that much, and then come back to "about" where it should be, I think it is either the scope itself (broken), or the mounts/rings (loose).

I know the rings are in very secured to the action, as are the rings to themselves since I DID have that problem last range trip.

The scope being broken...I hadn'y really thought of that. Although I'll probably take it all apart this week and really make sure everything is secured and see what happens at the range again.

Thankfully this IS a back up, my 300 Wby is shooting just fine.

MHS:

Is this rifle "Out of the Box New", or just New to you?

Well its an investigation and you have to approach it by a process of illemination. Check the scope and bases first.

I suspect its a bedding problem and the best way to handle that is glass bed the gun.

But first you need to zero in on the problem and in a certain order as you can take wood out but you cannot put it back, I would:

1. Glass bed the rifle tight from the tang to the forend then shoot it.

2. If #1 did doesn't work the free float the barrel from 2 inches in front of the recoil lug and try that.

3. If #2 fails then put some shims in the forend and try that that.

If the above process does not work but it usually does, then you probably need a new barrel.

If I had pictures of the groups I could probably tell you exactly where the problem lies and those groups with each shot numbered, tell a story and are indicators or the problem..send pics to my email if you like.

Have you tried any other bullets besides the SSTs? I'll tell you what happened to me this weekend shooting SSTs. My 25 WSSM Stealth rifle is a fantastic shooter and I normally shoot 115 gr Nosler BTs in it. Gun will shoot under 1/2 inch groups consistantly. I could not find Noslers a while back and had bought some 117 gr SSTs to try. Now I first tried them in my Ultimate Shadow 25 WSSM with a light weight barrel. At 100 yards I could not get it to group. 2 to 3 inches! This gun will also shoot well with Noslers. So I had some friends that wanted to do some shooting at long range and I brought the Stealth along to burn up this SST ammo and see how it shot in the heavy barrel gun. Got gun sighted in at 200 yards and had an OK group. Moved to 500 yards and dialed gun in. Wanted to shoot a group to see how they did. Had a Marine Sniper behind the gun and I was behind the spotting scope. Fisrt couple of shots were in 2.5 inches. Next shot went wild and I saw bullet fishtailing it hit 3 feet to one side. Another few rounds were fired and some were in group and some 2 to 3 feet out. Not the gun so had to be the bullet. Now this gun has a 1-10 twist which is normal for a 25 caliber and speed was 2956 fps so it was fast enough. Either this bullet won't stablize in this twist or something is out of balance in the bullet or base is out of square. Sorry for the long winded right up.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
MHS:

Is this rifle "Out of the Box New", or just New to you?

out of the box new

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Have you tried any other bullets besides the SSTs? I'll tell you what happened to me this weekend shooting SSTs. My 25 WSSM Stealth rifle is a fantastic shooter and I normally shoot 115 gr Nosler BTs in it. Gun will shoot under 1/2 inch groups consistantly. I could not find Noslers a while back and had bought some 117 gr SSTs to try. Now I first tried them in my Ultimate Shadow 25 WSSM with a light weight barrel. At 100 yards I could not get it to group. 2 to 3 inches! This gun will also shoot well with Noslers. So I had some friends that wanted to do some shooting at long range and I brought the Stealth along to burn up this SST ammo and see how it shot in the heavy barrel gun. Got gun sighted in at 200 yards and had an OK group. Moved to 500 yards and dialed gun in. Wanted to shoot a group to see how they did. Had a Marine Sniper behind the gun and I was behind the spotting scope. Fisrt couple of shots were in 2.5 inches. Next shot went wild and I saw bullet fishtailing it hit 3 feet to one side. Another few rounds were fired and some were in group and some 2 to 3 feet out. Not the gun so had to be the bullet. Now this gun has a 1-10 twist which is normal for a 25 caliber and speed was 2956 fps so it was fast enough. Either this bullet won't stablize in this twist or something is out of balance in the bullet or base is out of square. Sorry for the long winded right up.

Sam

Yea if you go back and read you'll see the most perplexing part of the problem, it did this with 2 different types of ammo, with 2 different weight bullets

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well its an investigation and you have to approach it by a process of illemination. Check the scope and bases first.

I suspect its a bedding problem and the best way to handle that is glass bed the gun.

But first you need to zero in on the problem and in a certain order as you can take wood out but you cannot put it back, I would:

1. Glass bed the rifle tight from the tang to the forend then shoot it.

2. If #1 did doesn't work the free float the barrel from 2 inches in front of the recoil lug and try that.

3. If #2 fails then put some shims in the forend and try that that.

If the above process does not work but it usually does, then you probably need a new barrel.

If I had pictures of the groups I could probably tell you exactly where the problem lies and those groups with each shot numbered, tell a story and are indicators or the problem..send pics to my email if you like.

Responding to your suggestions in order

1. Synthetic stock. Has a full length alum. bedding block, thought I wouldn't have to bed but it appears I was wrong. Glad Bell & Carlson say "virtually" eliminates the need to bed lol.

2. Barrel is already floated

3. This is what I'm trying this week. I put some business cards in there (trick I read in Rifle Shooter or Rifle or something to see if the rifle may indeed benefit from up pressure)

I sure hope I don't need a new barrel! Weatherby would be getting an angry letter, but then I'm sure they'd tell me to f' off since its on an aftermarket stock and that must be the only reason it won't shoot.

OK I did reread it and see that. Just thought I'd let you know my problems with the SSTs. First thing I'd take barreled action out of stock and put it back, tighen front action screw first and make it tight. Then snug up rear screw. Check and see if barrel is floated properly with a piece of paper. If you want to try upward barrel pressure fold a piece of paper until it is snug at the front of forend. I have quit a few B&C stocks and have no problems with them. I do skin bed them to be sure contact with action is good, you might try this.

Just saw you were ahead of me. Before you think you need to replace barrel have it recrowned.

Sam

quote:

finally notice that I had not tightened the scope down all the way.

Hmmm?

A .308 Win. isn't the total Boomer in the recoil department but I can verifiy that a 9.3x62 with loose rings cracked the front lens of a Millett Red Dot and ruined the elctronics inside on the first shot without everything being tightened down correctly, my mistake.

My guesstimate is that you've broken/dislodged the recticle wires (you don't mention which brand scope) and yes, they will "settle" down and appear to start shooting groups after several shots but throwing flyers will become the rule rather than the exception.

FWIW, I never tighten a scope that's found loose. But take the scope and mounts off and start over. Using a little lock tight as I go. If you're gonna do that, then now is a good time to try another scope just to be sure.

I had a similar problem a few years ago shooting at 200yds. The gun would group pretty well then the next group would look like a totally different gun fired the group. It turned out that the parallax adjustment did not work. Burris fixed it and I am still using it today.

A friend of mine, just last week, went through the same thing with a used Weatherby Vanguard in 30-06. My buddy shot it without much success. The smith said it was the scope. (I told him that I didn't think it was the scope) Smith put a different scope on of known quality on it and... same thing. I think just like yours. One center, one high and the others printing somewhere off to the side. The rifle did the same thing several times. Then he (the smith) did something to the bedding. Took the rifle out and the same thing. Now the smith has taken the rifle back and is supposedely making it a personal project.

I suspect a rough bore, requires copper fouling to fill the pits so that it will shoot. When you clean it, you remove the copper and it shoots poorly until it fouls again.

Reading your post, this is the second time it has done this - the first time it was blamed on loose scope mounts (which may or may not have been part of the problem). If it is a rough bore, it's not the end of the world. Often they will smooth out over time - a process that can be sped up w/ various methods. Personally I'm a fan of the Tubbs final finish system - has worked well for 2 of my rifles.

David

The first time I shot it, it was loose mounts, and that was 100% my fault for not checking. The scope actually moved about 1/4" so it wasn't just a suspicion lol.

My smith has the rifle right now and just bedded it. He said there was a TON of slop in the fit. I'm not as wise with these things, so I'll take his word on it. In fact he said he had to put even more after it set up, to really get things fit right. I'll be shooting it this weekend and seeing what is up.

If something is amiss again, I'll look at the scope and swap.

Anyone ever had to deal with sending a scope back to Nikon? Problems? Easy? Smooth?

Yup, it was the bedding! It took a TON of Devcon and we only did the front lug area and the rear tang. However, the results are satisfactory, considering its still a cheap model factory gun, shooting 26$ a box factory ammo

6 shots, 3 in one oblong hole, the others within an inch, one shot just a haaaaair over 1". This was from a cold barrel, after 30 rounds or so. I did run the boresnake through it 3 times before firing this group. Not much cooling time between shots either, but not rapid. I'm happy!

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
1. Make sure the actions screws are tight. With an aluminum bedding block stock I would torque 60-80lbs.

You can try some forend tip pressure.

2. Scope issues would be high on the suspect list also.

2. Scope issues would be high on the suspect list also.

I vote for scope issues