Gentlemen,

I was referred to this site by a member while at the range a few weeks ago, and have been lurking here since. I was hoping ya'll could provide a little help or feedback on my quest and let me know if I'm basically on track, out-there-flapping, or any experiences / recommendations.
I've trimmed down my rifle collection and basically come to the decision that my .308 bolt gun (Rem 700 ADL) will be my defacto do-all rifle. I mostly use it for deer, hogs, and coyotes, but I would also like to one day take it on an elk hunt or possibly an antelope/mule deer hunt. The goal is to develop one load with the best compromise of accuracy, ballistics, and performance on game. With that one load, shoot it all the time to create my data book under as many environmental conditions as possible for historical data and basically be intimately familiar with its performance. Right now focus is on performance out to 300 (coyotes only), and will eventually like to stretch that out to 600 (punching paper). Bottom line is that it is a hunting rifle first, and target rifle second in order to become better skilled at hunting.
Based upon my desire to shoot longer ranges and possibly hunt larger game, I've settled on the heavier bullet weights (180 grain) due to their better ballistic coefficients. This is a problem because the rifle absolutely loves sierra 165 game king HPBTs at 2250 fps out to 100 yds, and at 2520 fps out to 300 yds. This bullet has been an awesome performer for me on deer and hogs. It's low BC, however, does not give me confidence in shooting at coyotes out to 300 yds because it has the potential to drift so much in a 10mph wind. I acknowledge my lack of skill in judging wind, and doubt I'll have time to set up my anemometer in a real world hunting situation. So, I've recently started all over again with load development focused on bullets with a .500 or better BC and a computed drift of no more than 6 inches at 300.
All of the Match Kings are off the table because they are not recommended for shooting game. Also, years before I knew better, I used 190 match kings on two deer and was not impressed with the results.
The biggest problem encountered to date is that "optimal" (not trying to start a debate on jump vs. jam here) bullet seating depth of .02" off the lands is not feasible in my rifle because OAL is too long to fit in the magazine of the rifle. Although great for target shooting, I don't want to limit my bolt gun to a single shot while out on a hunt.
So, all of that background out of the way, here's what I'm in the process of trying out:
180 Nosler Ballistic Tips
180 Sierra SBT
180 Speer SBT
I'm considering some of the Swift and Barnes bullets, but they seem a bit pricey to me and they haven't had any in stock at the stores I frequent (also hate paying shipping if possible and cash leaves no evidence of the $$$ spent on my hobby for the wife ) I prefer neck shots and therefore I like faster expanding bullets and don't see a need for partitions or other super-duper titanium bonded bullets. I also readily admit that I am a bit partial to sierra products based upon my experiences to date.
Goal is 2600 fps which I am steadily in the process of working up to and varying bullet seating depth. I have a 20" barrel on my rifle so the 2600fps mark is not the easiest to get to.
A few decent performers so far, but nothing at MOA yet. Best results have been with H4895 and Varget. I've run out of case capacity with IMR 4064 even though I'm still less than published sierra maximums, and groups (patterns) were not impressive in my rifle. I have no experience reloading compressed loads so I have shied away from them.
Those powders were selected based upon their published temperature in-sensitivity, previous good results, and recommendations from other users.
I am currently neck-sizing Nosler Brass with a .002 bump on RCBS dies, and using Federal 210M primers. Rifle has been bedded, free floated, and is capable of some great groups when I do my part.
Sorry for the dissertation but wanted to get as much on the table as possible. Thanks in advance for your help.

LH3

Hello,
A long time ago, and older long range, prone, match shooter advised me that if the bullet being used did not start with an S(meaning Sierra) and the caliber with a 3(meaning .308) you were pretty well wasting your time!! I fully understand that today there are certainly several fine options available(not sure what they are???)but if you are primarily after vermin/varmints, etc. and not really caring about saving any hides or meat, the 180 grain Sierra match bullet is NOT the one to use, but rather the 175 Match King. Would avoid the 168 MK beyond 300 yards and stick with the 175. Your twist is probably 1 in 12 and good match up with the 175. IMR4064 in the area of 41-44 grains is usually very fine load w/ FED210M primers, Lapua brass and simply seat them to 2.800"(mag. length) and have at it. You can of course work with closer bullet seating to lands and grooves but unless you are getting into 600-1000 yard prone/sling shooting, do not need to go to all the extra labor to generate an accurate load. Load/rifle combo will deliver accuracy far better than most shooters out there so until you can "outshoot" the rifle, you are in business with what you have. Varget is a good powder and much easier to load and far less temp./press. sensitive that 4064, but can assure you that 4064 loads will deliver some scary accuracy. Good Luck.

I understand your desire to have a higher bc to reduce wind drift, but with the reduced muzzle velocity, you're going to give up bullet expansion as well. I'd much rather have a lighter bullet with say a .42-.45 bc, have it group 1/2", and launch it ~2800 fps.

I just started working up a new load for my wifes .308 ruger ultralight, also with a 20" tube. The 3rd combo tried was right at moa for 3 shots, 48 gr Varget. I haven't fiddled with seating depth yet.

IMHO the .308 is at it's best with 150-165 gr bullets. Simply taylor the bullet to the game hunted, ie if you're after elk or moose use a TSX, and go with traditional cup/core bullets for lighter game.

Trojan6

Welcome to AR.
The 308 is one of my favorite cartridges.

One load I can recommend is 39.5gr of IMR 3031 and the 165gr Sierra HPBT. I realize it does not have a high BC but I have taken game as far as 550 yards [antelope], and many deer [whitetail and mule].

That load also works with the Nosler 165 Ballistic Tip, and the 165 Nosler Partition.

Also I used that load with the 168 Sierra Match king for Metalic Sillhoute and Service Rifle Match shooting.

It is a fairly light load with the 165/168 grain bullets, but has performed excellent on game and targets to 600 yards.

Strangely enough that same powder charge with 180 Sierra Gamekings, Matchkings, and Nosler Partitions has also shot very well.

There are a lot of different powders that will work great in the 308, but I have never seen ANY 308, bolt, semi-auto, lever, or single shot, that did not shoot the 39.5 IMR 3031/165/168/180grain bullets very well.

As of late my wife and I have been using a lot of Federal Premium factory ammo for hunting, the 165 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, 180 Nosler Partition, 180 Barnes MRX with excellent results on game from bobcat,deer, pigs, bushbuck, to stuff as big as kudu, wildebeast, and zebra.

I would recommend you do step up to a 165 or 180 premiuum bullet for game above deer in size.

If you developed a load with 180gr Sierra or Nosler Ballistic Tips for deer/anrelope sized game, and then used 180 gr Nosler Partitions, North Fork's, Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, Swift A Frames, etc for the BIG stuff, where both loads hit the same place to 300 yards then you could do it all with confidence with the 308.

The same bullets as listed above in 165grains would also be a good choice, which ever your rifle shoots the best.

Keep us posted and let us know what you do.

Altho not my favorite, the .308 stands among the best rounds in existence, and rightly so. Much research has gone into this round and dividends are rich for those with a little patience.

Not quite a 30-06 and certainly not an ultra fast varminter, the 308 stands about as close to the perfect round as has ever been developed. That's good company in any book.

I'm using a 168 TSX in my .30-06 as my default load. Haven't chrono'ed it but should be getting around 2900fps. The 168 and the TSX are both overkill for many things---especially the rather small deer here in north central Texas. But I don't have to worry about shooting larger or tougher items. I have found that the TSX opens quite quickly, and Barnes has some video on their website of the expansion of this bullet.

So my immediate thought for you for a hunting load would be the 150 TSX. You should probably get close to 2900 fps with it even with the shorter barrel. That would be more than enough for any of the game you listed.

However, it's going to get pretty spendy to shoot at targets. 30 cal TSXs are running about 60 cents a piece at most mail order houses.

So if target shooting will play a big role in what you are doing and you don't have immediate plans for elk and the like, then my suggestion is that you look at 150-165 grain Sierra GKs, Hornady Interlocks, Nosler Ballistic Tips, et cet. They will be plenty for deer, yotes, antelopes, et cet. and not break the bank for target shooting. You can load up a heavier bullet or premium bullet for an elk hunt when the opportunity presents itself.

The concerns others have expressed about needing velocity to expand the bullet are important. With A-Frames, TSX, and the like, I want an impact velocity of 2200 fps at least. However, with lesser bullets, you can get by with as low as 1800 fps and maybe less depending on the bullet. (Nosler has on their website impact velocity ranges for their bullets. Very helpful info.) And that's the problem with 180 grain bullets in the .308. Too little velocity too soon to be helpful. Punching paper and punching animals are different in that regard.

Welcome and good luck.

LWD

178 a-max does it 4 me!! Give it a try.

LWD, You might be ok at 2900fps with 168's in a 30-06 but maybe a bit warm. But if you are running 2900fps with 168gr TSX's in a 308 you are running way above normal pressures. In a 26" barrel between 2700 and 2800 is about as fast as they can be driven with normal pressures.

Trojan, I don't think that you can safely get to 2600fps with 180gr bullets in a 20" 308. I have 3 short barreled 308's, 2 Steyr's and a Rem LTR. I load 165-168gr bullets to about 2650 with Varget and 165gr partitions in the Steyr's and have been using WW-748 and 168 TSX's in the LTR.
I think that a 168gr TSX will do just about anything you'd want to do with a 180gr bullet in the 308. I used to shoot quite a bit of HP Silhouette out to 500 meters. The 168's were a good bit flatter than the 190's at 500meters even though the 190's have a lot higher BC than even the 180's. At 1000yds it might pay to use the heavier bullets but to "hunting" ranges I feel you are better served with the 165-168's. In Silhouette the 168's were convenient since dead on at 200meters my comeups were 3,6 and 9MOA for 300,385 and 500meters with the load I was using (warm load of 748).
One peice of advice I would give you is to try Lapua Brass. In 308 it's not that much more expensive than Rem Or WW and might just last enough longer to not cost any more in the long run. It's superb consistant brass and will get the top performance out of your 308 loads.
There's lots of good powders for the 308 but I think you should be sure and try Varget and RE-15. Both are temperature stable and will give you the same velocity at 100deg as they will at 20deg (both of which you'll see in Oklahoma).

Good luck, I've loaded for more 308's than any other round. It's a great one...............DJ

quote:

LWD, You might be ok at 2900fps with 168's in a 30-06 but maybe a bit warm. But if you are running 2900fps with 168gr TSX's in a 308 you are running way above normal pressures. In a 26" barrel between 2700 and 2800 is about as fast as they can be driven with normal pressures.

In my .30-06, I'm using 60 gr of RL19 with the 168. This is the max load for an X Bullet in the Barnes #3 manual, which Barnes shows at 2980 from a 24" barrel. I haven't chrono'ed the load, but with my 22" barrel I'm guessing I'm losing 25-50 fps per inch. No pressure signs whatsoever, and it shoots like a house on fire.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that Trojan6 use 168s and try to get 2900 from his 308, but with the 150s and the shorter barrel, I'd guess he can get close to 2900---at least 2800, which would meet all his big game hunting needs.

LWD

My 308 was my do everything deer, elk, antelope coyote and squirrel gun for many years and I shot the same load in it since 1981.

165 grain Hornady BTSP with IMR4064. There are many 165 grain bullets out there, try one.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your outstanding help. I've got some additional loads worked up for this weekend's range session all based on the 180s. Picked up some 180 Hornady SSTs to try as well. I'll run these and if there are no stellar performers, I'll go back to the 165 gr bullets as a majority of you have recommended. Thank you again and I'll let ya'll know how it goes.

LH3

165gr Sierra pointed boat tails with 43.5gr of Varget is just hard to beat. Go for the accuracy. Squeezing the last bit of velocity will never be realized in the field.

Trojan; The SST is an impressive bullet ballisticaly, but I would not use it on larger than deer/antelope. It opens up big and will do great internal damage, but on larger game I suspect will not give the penetration you will want.

I shot an antelope at 410 yards and he dropped like a rock, but no exit hole. Inside was jelly. Great accuracy, terminal performance, but no penetration in terms of an elk or moose sized animal.

You may want one load for all things, but the only way to get there is step up to a premium bullet and pay the price. Although, even with premiums, there may not be one load that does everything. At least not in my experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
I understand your desire to have a higher bc to reduce wind drift, but with the reduced muzzle velocity, you're going to give up bullet expansion as well. I'd much rather have a lighter bullet with say a .42-.45 bc, have it group 1/2", and launch it ~2800 fps.

I just started working up a new load for my wifes .308 ruger ultralight, also with a 20" tube. The 3rd combo tried was right at moa for 3 shots, 48 gr Varget. I haven't fiddled with seating depth yet.

IMHO the .308 is at it's best with 150-165 gr bullets. Simply taylor the bullet to the game hunted, ie if you're after elk or moose use a TSX, and go with traditional cup/core bullets for lighter game.

These comments are so much on the money I shouldn't have to add my 2 cents, but to repeat them. Using the .308 as you describe for nearly 43 years, I must say the 150 - 165 weights are in the field far better performers at realistic ranges than the heavier bullets you have choosen. I have taken Moose at over 400 yards with a single shot, and bears at 8 yards... must admit I poped a second round just because... I would shoot the Sierra 155 Pama bullets and the 150 Nosler BT's and 165 BT's or Partitions if I was after Elk. I would never feel undergunned, and laugh at those in various hunting camps with the big magnums and the lousy zero's and poor shooting I have seen. You are on the right path, enjoy the hike.

I shoot all the time in highpower competition with 308 and .223. And against guys with 6mm or 6.5’s. I shoot 168’s at 300 yards. At three hundred years it is more likely that your biggest error will be your sight alignment and trigger pull. Yes, wind makes a difference, and the sub calibers buck the wind better, but the difference at 300 yards is not as great as 600 yards. If you look at the mirage, look at the wind direction, and hold off a bit, you should be pretty close at 300 yards with a 308. I really doubt you will see much if any difference on paper between a hot 150, a stout 168, or a 175 SMK. Not until you exceed 300 yards.

quote:

the rifle absolutely loves sierra 165 game king HPBTs at 2250 fps out to 100 yds, and at 2520 fps out to 300 yds. This bullet has been an awesome performer for me on deer and hogs. It's low BC, however, does not give me confidence in shooting at coyotes out to 300 yds

it does what it need to on animals your going to eat.
so what if you wound a yote?
stick w/ what shoots good.

Not sure you are going to get everything you want from one load, but you could probably get by with two bullets of same weight, but different construction. How about the 125gr TNT for varmints and play and the 130gr TSX for everything else, or maybe a fragile 150 for varmints and play and a 150gr Accubond, TSX or partitions for the heaving lifting? I'm trying to come up with the same sort of solution you are looking for, and those are the options I am looking at.

John

quote:

You may want one load for all things, but the only way to get there is step up to a premium bullet and pay the price. Although, even with premiums, there may not be one load that does everything. At least not in my experience.

+1

That's why I am running TSXs in my .30-06. Totally unneeded for deer like game, but I know I will get a through and through if a big hog steps out. Of course, this is totally over the top if a yote steps out but will certainly work. Nosler seconds from shooter's pro shop could help with the price aspect.

LWD

Gentlemen,

Again, thanks for all of the great advice. Had a rather productive weekend out at the range as I was able to shoot Saturday and Sunday mornings. Saturday turned out to be the most rewarding as I found a prospect, and had the benefit of my oldest boy (4 yrs) with me. Turns out helping him plink with a .22 is a great way to wait for your barrel to cool down in between strings...
Anyhow, best overall in the 180 gr class was the Sierra SBT over 44.5 Varget at avg. 2630 fps. Here's the group off the bench:

Not the greatest, and only three rounds, but it's under MOA (and significantly better than the other sixteen loads I tried) as a start and I can play around with bullet length now to try and trim off some of the group size. No signs of pressure and still .5 gr less than Hogdon's published maximum on their web site.
According to JBM, it barely exceeds my wind criteria (6.1 in at 300) and is at 2175fps at 300yds.
I'll look this week around town to try and find some 165 TSXs to load up, and think some stores may have had them but I overlooked them in my quest for 180 grainers. Hopefully I'll get them narrowed down next weekend as the following weekend I'll have the opportunity to shoot some decent distances. Of course that distance shooting will be in between trying get my limit of doves!
Thanks again for all of the help.

LH3

quote:

I'll look this week around town to try and find some 165 TSXs to load up

FYI, Barnes makes both a 165 and a 168 .30 cal TSX. TSX bullets I prefer the 168s because it has a slightly higher BC and shoots well in my gun, but the practical difference and hunting differences is probably meaningless.

Good luck.

Gentlepeoples,

No .30 Barnes bullets at the store today, so I'm going to chug along with the 180 Sierra Game Kings this weekend. I've got cases prepped and will adjust bullet seating depth to see if I can improve on the group size at 100yds. Goal is to have a solid load for coyotes over Labor Day.
I'll hopefully find some 165's to try soon enough and work up from there. Thanks again for all of the help.

LH3

168gr Berger VLD's and RL 15 are shooting good for me. They now claim that the VLD is good for big game as well as long range target.

Dan