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| One of Us |
Hey WhatThe! That sounded funny...but.. I just talked to the guys shooting the RUM and Lapua to find out what they're getting velocity-wise....His answer..... "I think they are getting about 2850 fps with their RUMs? A .338 should get about the same, I think. My rifle doesn't have twist to optimally stabilize the 300's so we shoot the 250's at like 3000 fps. For the 250's I use 91gr H4831SC, Ray uses 96gr Retumbo For the 300's, RL25 or Retumbo, I don't have the numbers here.." | |||
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Some times it is just better to be lucky then good. A shot never taken is always a miss. If they did shoot at them at 1.5 miles and hit them great. I would think it would be very hard to duplacate it. At 1.5 miles I think I might prefer to call in arty, mr jet or one of our unmaned drones. | |||
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p dog shooter, Takes a bit of time for top cover to come in / be called in unless they have direct Apache cover. The thing is, they don't have to replicate it !!! Once they are dead, they are dead LOL Even if the enemy realizes they are under harassing fire and that causes them to be off target, the job is partly done. . | |||
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500N true very true  | |||
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Before taking the position that "it can't be done" perhaps it would be of interest to peruse this record of the 1879 tests of the .45-70 out to 3500 yards. A 500 grain blunt nosed, lead bullet starting out at 1375 fps (from the 2.4 inch cartridge) had no problem blowing through 3 inches of wood at 2500 yards. Any guesses on the impact velocity? http://www.researchpress.co.uk...ange/sandyhook03.htm | |||
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Interesting reading. | |||
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Enfield volley sights went to 2,700 yds. | |||
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Spot one lad!!! | |||
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Follow up on this! At only 2000 yards (we will add the extra 700 yards later) get yourself and your buddies an 18"WX30"L target and go at it. When you are hitting 7 out of 10, come back and we will add the other elements.  | |||
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"Interesting reading." I try to stray away from folklore and keep with reality. You know just as well as anybody with more than a third grade education that this not just ridicules but embarrassing to mention at any level of intellect. But I will take a stab at the answer. "They were on the moon". Or the bullet had "JATO" Jet Assisted Take Off", Or they had a 2000 yard barrel with booster blasts every 50 yards, or they played "relay shooting" where The bullet was shot to about 1200 Yards, caught by the next guy who reloaded it and shot it to the next guy and so on, or the shot was taken atop of Mt. Everest and landed at base camp punching through the cook's 3" storage box. At 2500 Yards the bullet is traveling roughly 76 FPS and lost it stability around 1350 yards. I'm not a non believer and still believe our British friends did pop those poor ba$tard$ in the sand (just not by convention means). As to your story, I'm just having campfire fun, but still have to rely on physical facts. But if you can provide me with the specifications, ballistic data used etc., I'm all ears. I'm not above anyone else and can take a lesson (as long as it applies to modern physics) just as the next guy! | |||
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1. "At 2500 Yards the bullet is traveling roughly 76 FPS." A 1920 U.S. Army Ordnance study found that a completely spent projectile reaches a terminal velocity of 200 mph at sea level. That's 293.33 fps. It can't go slower without violating the laws of physics. Did you miss that day in class? A 500 grain .45 cal slug traveling 200 mph/293 fps will ruin your day. I can see no way plunging fire from high ballistic arcs would be going 76 fps. It would be traveling faster than that after a 3 second drop. Projectiles have both vertical and horizontal velocity. 2. "lost it stability around 1350 yards." Bullet stability is governed by more than just velocity and spin rate. Elongated projectiles like Minie Balls, some black powder rounds, and rifled shotgun slugs have their center of mass ahead of their center of pressure. They don't even require spin to fly nose forward. Same principle as a shuttle cock or a dart. Most jacketed bullets have the center of mass behind the center of pressure and require the gyroscopic forces induced by rifling to maintain stability. Without knowing bullet form and mass distribution you don't have a clue as to when and if the projectile will lose stability. 3. Question: How far can a .22 cal long rifle, 36 grain projectile at 1,400 fps carry at sea level? Answer: 1.5 miles (source: Remington Arms Co.) - JATO assist? 4. "Folklore" Are you asserting that the data in the article written by Mr. W. John Farquharson, in Rifle Magazine, Oct-Dec, 1977 was fabricated and represents unsubstantiated information? If so, please cite your proof. 5. "But if you can provide me with the specifications, ballistic data used etc., I'm all ears." Did you even read the article? Firearms used, bullet weight, twist, powder charge, angle of inclination, flight times, forensic evidence, velocity and penetration were all cited. 6. I have discovered over the years that folks who rely on name calling and personal insults to bully an argument, usually have a weak argument or don't know what they are talking about. | |||
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I didn't see any name calling. In fact he said.....
As to your assertion that the slowest a projectile can travel is 200mph after it is fired, I find difficult to conceptualize. I guess if it's fired straight up into the air, when it runs out of JATO steam and starts down it reaches a max velocity on the way down of 200 mph and that makes sense. | |||
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Does this refresh your memory?: "You know just as well as anybody with more than a third grade education that this not just ridicules but embarrassing to mention at any level of intellect. " | |||
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Gotcha... | |||
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JBM actually shows it picking up velocity after it slows down? 2000 -15241.3 -727.7 1125.2 53.7 375.6 0.336 125.3 10.757 1893.2 90.4 2100 -17966.1 -817.0 1265.7 57.6 365.8 0.328 118.8 11.773 2072.1 94.2 2200 -21124.4 -916.9 1421.6 61.7 358.5 0.321 114.1 12.877 2266.4 98.4 2300 -24796.8 -1029.5 1595.3 66.2 353.6 0.317 111.0 14.082 2478.5 102.9 2400 -29087.0 -1157.3 1790.4 71.2 351.1 0.315 109.5 15.409 2712.0 107.9 2500 -34132.5 -1303.8 2011.3 76.8 350.9 0.314 109.4 16.882 2971.3 113.5 2600 -40121.7 -1473.6 2264.5 83.2 352.8 0.316 110.5 18.539 3262.9 119.8 2700 -47324.4 -1673.8 2559.5 90.5 356.5 0.319 112.9 20.434 3596.3 127.2 2800 -56149.6 -1915.0 2910.8 99.3 361.6 0.324 116.1 22.648 3986.0 135.9 2900 -67264.1 -2214.9 3342.6 110.1 367.9 0.330 120.2 25.319 4456.2 146.7 3000 -81878.5 -2606.3 3899.1 124.1 374.7 0.336 124.7 28.699 5051.1 160.8 | |||
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That was to illustrate the point that if you just dropped the bullet it would be going fast enough to do mortal damage. A bullet fired on a ballistic arc still has momentum from initial firing(otherwise it would stop and fall) plus it gains acceleration due to gravity after it passes the top of the arc. It's final velocity would be the sum of those two velocities less the effects of air resistance. At some point, if allowed to fall far enough, its forward momentum will be depleted and it's path will be near vertical and it will be at terminal velocity. Remember, these bullets were launched in high arcs with 20+ sec hang times. It takes about 9 seconds or so to reach terminal velocity(32 ft/sec/sec). | |||
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It makes sense now. Thanks. WhatThe? | |||
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Ooookay. It is obviously a waste of time to continue this discussion. | |||
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1. Hey you're right, Tv=200Mph @ Sl. So you are surely aware the this is PM Maglin theory which is (Fg)=(Fd) so your bullet is asymptotic hence, the Tv  Fd) has been reduced bringing your bullet down to aprx: 167 MPH. This would indeed ruin your day and perhaps give you one heck of a headache and maybe even a concussion and/or fracture but would hardly blow through 3 inches of wood.2. You have me at a disadvantage here, your term "gyroscopic forces" eludes me but I do know that in an enclosed environment a rotating sphere (counter the magnetic field) becomes stabilized and is known as a gyro and I also know that when a bullet is introduced to the atmosphere it becomes "centrifugal" in nature and that force behind centrifugal does not exist and is just a "phenomena" i.e, the cloths in the washer being thrown up against the wall during the fast spin cycle is often referred to as "centrifugal force" but as we all know, the only force that exists is gravity it self. Therefore the speed at which an object is thrown horizontal against the vertical pull of gravity is called "centrifugal". Hence a bullet is stabilized by centrifugal rotation. So, centrifugal rotation maintains an equal gravitation property of the projectile or anything else like a football. The interesting thing that proves the theory is that the projectile or again whatever is making our parabolic flight in centrifugal form is = to the RPM of the projectile in length of flight. Fc = mv2/r, where Fc = centrifugal effect, m = mass, v = speed, and r = radius. Thus when it stops spinning it drops dead in flight and vise/versa. This is where you can really pinpoint range by the RPM of the bullet based on v2 (R). 3) See no. 2 4) I don't have to site my proof, the people claiming their achievements do. So if you have the info, lets check it out. Would love to see it. Humble me, embarrass me, make a fool of me. Ya I know, I'm already doing a good job at that. 5) Which article would you be referring to? If it's about the current sniper issue, I don't nor does any other physicist require any more other than what has been printed (would like elongations and elevations though) would help a bit but not significantly. 6) I agree with your entire statement and like I said above it is not nor will ever be my intent to harm anyone by the words I use. This is not who I am. And I am also offended by those that engage in that/this type of conversation (s). So again, to anyone who feels offended by my words. I apoligize. | |||
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This is a good discussion Gentlemen, please continue it. The physics of bullet flight is intrigueing to everyone here on the forum I'm sure. Just because folks have written that such and such has been done doesn't mean it's true. I've always been a staunch believer in the science associated with the action and it just doesn't seem plausable that a 500 grain bullet fired at such an anemic velocity could even travel 3500 yards. I realize the angle of elevation was given in the article. The above #'s I ran on JBM for 3000 yards (the most the program will allow) show the bullet, and a modern one at that, slowing down to 350 fps at 2500 yards then picking up speed somehow to 374 fps at 3000. At 350 fps that equates to 238 mph. I believe that a 500 grain bullet would penetrate the 3" of wood at that speed (without doing any energy calculations). Realize it stated that the wood was 3-1" boards separated from each other, not a solid piece. | |||
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1. Asymptotic only applies to objects dropped from zero acceleration. The bullet is already moving in excess of terminal velocity. If I fired the bullet straight up or went up in a balloon and dropped it, you would be correct(depending on fall time). I've seen small debris driven through the sides of houses in a 110 mph hurricane. Therefore I have no trouble envisioning a 1 oz+ lead cylinder at 160-200 mph smashing through someones head. 2. Gyroscopic force/effect(both terms are used) works with centripetal force. "Centripetal force is a force that makes a body follow a curved path: it is always directed orthogonal to the velocity of the body, toward the instantaneous center of curvature of the path."- Wikepedia The gyroscopic effect/force is what helps stabilize a spinning bullet and is derived from its angular momentum. It is the resistance of a rotating object to change its plane of motion. Centrifugal force is what is acting to tear the bullet apart and centripetal force is the tension holding it together as it spins. I think they are both considered pseudo-forces. All bullets are not inherently unstable in flight. Gravity is not the only recognized force, but as you say it is considered the only real force. * Applied Force * Gravitational Force * Normal Force * Frictional Force * Air Resistance Force * Tension Force * Spring Force * Electrical Force * Magnetic Force "The interesting thing that proves the theory is that the projectile or again whatever is making our parabolic flight in centrifugal form is = to the RPM of the projectile in length of flight. Fc = mv2/r, where Fc = centrifugal effect, m = mass, v = speed, and r = radius. Thus when it stops spinning it drops dead in flight and vise/versa." Are you actually saying that bullet spin imparts an anti-gravity effect on the bullet, and if a bullet stops spinning in flight it would drop straight to the ground regardless of its velocity? If you are, then a whole bunch of people have been killed by round balls shot out of smoothbore muskets w/no spin that never should have arrived on-target! How did the bullets make it past the muzzle? Man, that's Area 51 stuff. I'd like to see a video of that.  Bullets stop spinning when they impact the target backstop or the terrain they were fired over. Even a .45-70 launched out a 1:18 twist barrel at 1,400 fps is doing around 56,000 rpm. Its not going to stop spinning and drop out of the air. Even at 200 fps it would still be rotating several thousand rpm. What can happen and does happen is certain bullet designs begin to pitch & yaw at lower spin rates and thus present more surface area for drag to act against. This results in velocity being bled off quickly, causing it to tumble and hastens its return to earth. Forensic observations of the fired rounds in the test showed the bullets struck nose-on and were not tumbling. Relatively short, fat bullets like that are not prone to instability. Bullets fall because their angular momentum is overcome by gravity and drag. You have to check with the bullet manufacturer to see at what velocity/spin rate a particular bullet becomes unstable. Alternately, if you shoot at paper targets 2 miles away and punch round/slightly oval holes in them(plunge angle), you have physical evidence that supports bullet stability at that range. No calculation is needed. 3. Do you think Remington made it up? 4. The article in question dealt with hard data from a government test, not opinions. Most ballistics testing in the 19th century dealt with empirical testing, measuring and observation. That doesn't make it invalid just because a predictive formula is not attached. What would cause you concern that the data was falsified? 5. The article in question was the one cited in #4. The one you labeled as pertaining to a third grader's intellect. 6. Accepted | |||
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Info on bullet stability: http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/ http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/gyrocond.htm (re: gyroscopic stability) http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig14.htm (note 4,000 meter range of stability for 7.62 NATO bullet) http://accurateshooter.wordpre...rates-and-stability/ | |||
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 NRA LIFE MEMBER DU DIAMOND SPONSOR IN PERPETUITY DALLAS SAFARI CLUB LIFE MEMBER SCI FOUNDATION MEMBER | |||
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Many "quotes" "theories" and laws used here don't even apply to the "original" argument. Somewhere along the line we went from probability to NLG gravity, locomotion, gyro stabilization etc., etc.. We can debate parabolic physics all day long by introducing additional elements that effect ballistic behavior and why they apply and why they might not apply under specific situations. So in essence, we have debated the distance at which a projectile can travel under specific and sometimes extraordinary conditions and the energy along specific distances along the POF or parabolic curve. What has been lost in this debate is the "result". Which is that two 250 Gr. projectiles fired at aprx: 2650 to 2750 FPS struck 2 targets at aprx: 8,200 feet away at two human targets (kill zone) is aprx: 32"LX18"W. So the preforsaid debate was just getting the projectile there! Now, I have already gone through what it would take to get the projectile there (which I still maintain is beyond commercial data), now lets discuss what it would take to strike those two targets 2 for 2 at that range. I know you're an intelligent person and I think you would agree with me that it would be much more suitable should you and I have the good fortune of debating this at the chalk board. It's very difficult trying to draw explanations and theoretical principles in a blog and I think frustration adds to some of the steamy parts that we don't mean in the form of ill will. So with that said I bough to your wisdom, sand and applaud your appreciation to the other side of the sport.  | |||
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The Britt's 250 grain load in the 338 Lapu is over 3060 FPS I beleive. I know that it is 3000+ FPS Here is a link to Fox And Friends where they talk about the shots. 2 kills in sucessive shots http://www.youtube.com/user/sc...hx#p/u/5/UkKL4_ljNYk _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You just proved my point! (Thank You). the load you quoted above exceeds conventional data. Not by much though (60-90FPS). However, even at this, the bullet is only traveling at about 480 FPS @ 2700 yards and according to the figures lost it's stability 190 yards back. In addition the bullet I think you may be talking about is the 250LS which has been tested over and over to be it's most accurate at 2690FPS. Although the news clip you posted was interesting (thanks!), it lacked the scientific info I believe we are all seeking. This is the first time I have posted these figures during this fun and sometimes steamy debate. But I believe along with my calculations and others that have tested the formula feel that to maintain any consistency at all @ 2000 to 2200 yards the below load would be required. We know that the shot was at 2700 yards but the load below could achieve that in the hands of a skilled pro and only a little (not lots) of luck. 1) Bullet wt: 347 Grains Coe: (M)@2.85"L <4.55> +/- .765 Neutral mass. 2) BBL 28" @ 1/9 twist (3 internal spins) 3) Min velocity: 3400 FPS I know this is going to be challenged, beaten etc. Simple fact is, this is the facts! I still believe the Brits pulled this off but again, not by conventional (standard) weapons and loads. Many here have set out to prove they can get a bullet out that far with conventional data but have failed to provide formulas for maintaining stability/accuracy for a two shot two kill situation at this range. I challenge anyone here that has the means to develop a load for their weapon not to exceed the current data for the .338 LM to strike a 30"T X 18"W target at just 2000 yards with a score of 7 out of ten. Then when you have this mastered, we will add another 700 yards with the same plate and strike the plate 2 for 2. You will find the first part of this task more than one can chew. But I'm leaving the benefit before the doubt in that someone here can do that part. However, after adding the additional 700 yards, I will have to put the doubt in front of the benefit. This is a practical exercise in science that must be done in the field with your own data. Too many people run to their ballistic programs, look up articles and depend on someone other than them self, then run back here and quote it the Gospel. This is not a stab at those (we all do it) but rather a challenge to go in the field and see what it will take to accomplish this. Ladies and Gentlemen of this forum I have done this trying to master not 2700 yards but rather 2500 yards. I have Been at it for over a year (not constantly, I do like to have fun too) using conventional data. So again my challenge, DO IT YOURSELF! would love to meet up with anybody when they have it mastered! And that's a fact! I don't care where you are USA, Canada, Europe wherever! I would pay to see it! | |||
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I have a 338 Lapua with a 30 inch barrel and with a book load from the Sierra manuel with the 250 SMK and r-25 i GET 3200fps, so the Britt load is not above conventional data. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Hi there.. Sorry but the current edition (Sierra Vol. 5) has a max velocity of 3000FPS for the 250 Gr. HPBT (MK) # 2650. But it doesn't matter though because this bullets proven velocity for accuracy is 2690FPS. They (Sierra) claim Viht @ 92.4 grains pushing 2900FPS to be their accuracy load, but failed my AI and AL tests and found it shot real well at around 2700FPS. Oh I apologize! you said "I get 3200FPS" and you weren't simply quoting book data but rather your own! How is your accuracy with that load out to say about 1800 yards? And how many grains of R25 are you using? | |||
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I have not shot the 250 at 1800 yards. I tried the 250 SMK's when I first recieved my rifle while waiting on the 300 Grain SMK, which IMHO is a much better long range bullet. I get 2800 FPS with the 300 SMK and it is very accurate to as far as I have shot which is 1006 yards  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Nice shooting! Kind of fun shooting way out there. That's a big target, bet it makes a big thump when hit! You're right on the bullet weight. I use Sierra 300 Gr. (MK) exclusively and order them in 500 round boxes, usually 1000 at a time (saves on shipping). Now move that big'ol sucker out to 1800 yards and draw a nice 18X30 rectangle on it and see how you do out there. (load up on those 300's first) | |||
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I have plenty of the 300 grainers  But I can not draw an 18"X30" retangal on that plate because it is only a 12" circle!! _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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This is the original article. As you can see there is a lot of Journalistic gloss.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...le-Taliban-kill.html regards griff | |||
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Well $hit!, than x-tra nice shooting! I thought it was a 32" gong! Good going Move that sucker back in 50 yard increments. That is how I was trained. My target was 18"W X 24"H. My skills tapped out at 1600 yards with my LM. With my .408 I can reach out to just over 1900 yards with a 32"X40" with a 7 out of 10. There is another guy "Rod" Rodger that is a skeet shooter in nature but can reach out to 2100 yards and score a 7/10 with my gun! (.408). Kind of greases me a bit! | |||
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Thanks for the post! I don't think an article exists that I haven't read on this.  | |||
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True or not, and ballistic discussions aside, I don't understand why Corporal Harrison's full on photo has been published. I doubt his chain of command who do so. If they did, shame on them. If he did this on his own, well.... 114-R10David | |||
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You do have a point there. I think some would say he's "hero safe", but at last count GB has a large Muslim population and as we all know to well, there's radicals in the mix. So just being at home may put him at risk? Hopefully he will be fine. | |||
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SF Soldiers and Pilots of choppers, Fast jets etc are not named except higher ranks (CO Etc) and are not on the electoral role either so I find it strange that his name and photo were published. A blurred image would have been sufficient. | |||
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Thanks, for the kind words. Right now 1006 is as far as I can get. I have heard from some one that is in a position to know, is that it took 9 shots to get on target and then he made the hits consecutively. I am not sure that we have all of the facts at this time. The only thing that all sources seem to agree on is that he did make the kills and at 1.54 miles. No matter how it happened it is still dam good shooting IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You're right and I never doubted that this guy pulled it off. These guys practice, practice and practice and only the elite make the cut. I just don't think he made it with conventional loads or equipment. But again you're right because even having a souped up LM round ( 300 grain bullet at 3500 FPS) would still require immense skill. For the rest of use A 1000 yards is really way out there (3000 feet or 0.6 of a mile). A lot of people that read articles that have never shot this far sometimes dismiss it as the "norm" but it really is a challenge to be consistent. At the range I go to you will find a lot of week-end fun seekers trying to reach out there with their hunting rifles and after a dozen attempts they might hit the 32" round gong and think they are something for the books. When I compete in "open tactical" we are directed to and from target to target in that the judge will call on a target at 300 yards in which you have 30 seconds to hit (1 shot) then he/she may choose your second target that is 700 yards, then maybe 100 yards than perhaps 1000 yards etc., all allowing only 1 shot and that 30 second time window. Lots of fun, very challenging but the 24" 1000 yard target is struck only 50% of the time. To be consistent at this range I load all my loads by hand weighing my powder charges twice and checking each bullets weight, O.A L and C.O.A.L. At the range any load mishap is the difference between a hit and a miss. If you're hitting that 12" pie consistency I encourage you to keep moving back. It's O.K. to enlarge your target as you go. I believe the standard is 18X24 @ 1000 Yards and you move up by adding 1/8 minute per 100 yards past that to a maximum of 28"W. Keep going! It's what LR tactical sniping is all about. | |||
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