Hy guys, need some help here, moose season is only 6 weeks away. I bought some federal 180 gr. H.E. nosler patition ammo, here is the problem, sighted in at 100 yds. 2.5 in. high, tryed them at 300 yds. and could not beleive it, would you beleive a 20 inch group at 13 in. low. shot at 200 yds. got 2 in. group at 7 in. low, the ballistic chart say,s they should be dead on at 200 yds. my buddy who was with me frowned and said i think that ammo is to hot for that gun,ammo is federal 180 gr. nosler load no. p308g. i, thought maybe it was me, so my buddy said try his 300 ultra mag at 300 yds. i put 2 shots right beside his.Is this load to hot for this gun , it is a savage 99-c leaver with 21 in. barrel. i'm glad i tryed this at 300yds. and not just 100yds.(which so many hunters do). any help would be apreciated, thanks.

I don't know if the load is too hot but it sounds like the rifle does not care much for it. What kind of groups were you getting from the ammo you used before the change to the Federals?

As far as what the balistics chart says compaired to what your seeing, this is normal. Yes the chart is accurate, but only for the muzzle velocity and sight height it states. If you chrono the cartridge out of your rifle you will find that your actual MV is lower, sight height also comes into play.
I agree with rickt however, in that your rifle dosn't like that load.

If you're not a handloader, pick up several different boxes of .308's to try. There's probably something available that your rifle will like. Your choice of 180's sounds good for moose, but perhaps not for your rifle. In my experience Savage 99's are great hunting rifles, but not the ticket for 300 yard accuracy. Still, something's wrong with a twenty inch group! My .308 bolt action Rem 700 is a consistent 3 - 4 inches with 180's at 300 yards. It shoots 165's a bit better though. My son shoots a BLR in .308 and it's fine with most any 150 or 165, but doesn't like the heavier bullets much. We've never gotten bolt gun accuracy out of the lever guns we've messed with, but the accuracy has been much better than you describe. Try some different ammo. Guy

Forgot to add that I've used Nosler Partitions quite happily for hunting but they've never proven to be the most accurate in any of the rifles I've tried (.308, .300 Win mag & 7mm Rem mag). I've never seen such poor accuracy at 300 yards as you describe though, they're better than that. Perhaps the 165's would be a better choice for your rifle? A bit light for moose, but well placed I think they'd do the job. Your two inch group at 200 is encouraging, better than I've done with a Savage lever gun. Good luck and good hunting! Guy

I think tailgunner is onto your problem. Most ballistics tables are created with 24" barrel ballistics. With your 21" barrel you are probably giving up at least 50fps at the muzzle, and the more velocity you give up at the muzzle the quicker the velocity (and trajectory) drops off. If you start getting better groups than 20" at 300 yards and want to use them for hunting trust YOUR results at the range not what's printed on the back of the box!

I am a little puzzled by your accuracy problem. What kind of groups were you getting at 100 yards? Was it windy that day? If so, your bullets would have been much more effected at 300 yards than at 100 yielding unexpectedly large groups at longer ranges. More details might help us help you a little better.

I probably didn't tell you anything you didn't know, but I hope I helped anyway!

Bob

If your 99 has a 1:12 twist, the 180's may not be stabilizing well from it. I'm not sure of the actual twist rate, but I'll bet it's 1:12.

I would suspect more than a 50 fps loss from the 24 to the 21 inch barrel.

But here's the thing. I don't think the designers of the 99 ever had 300 yard shots in mind.

The 180 grain bullet, fired from that rifle, is going to have somewhere in the vicinity of 1000 foot pounds of energy at 300 yards. I'm not a moose hunter, so I'll leave it to someone who does to opine on whether that's enough punch or not. My guess is it would be marginal at best...

I agree with the folks above on the 165's, as they might do better for you.

You're lucky to own a Savage 99. They're wonderful old rifles.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Thank's a million guy's for the help,i have been buying factory ammo for 36 yrs. and i am totally convinced to start taking up reloading.To answer some of your question's, 100yd. group 2.5 in. high , 3 shot's at 1.5 inch group.(no wind)200 yds.and 300 yds. ,a verry light breeze,only small problem i had was when the sun broke out, was the heat wave's coming off the hay field we shoot on.The last ammo i used were winchester 180 gr. fail safe, they shot about the same group at 100 yds.,was shooting 8x12 silhouette's at 250 yds. no problem. Then last year winchester discontinued the 180's.(only in 165 now)going to try at 100yd. again. tell you at end of week if i find somethig wrong,(scope wrecked, crosshairs have moved etc.)oh, and why i mentioned TO HOT A LOAD, the federal's have printed on the box , not to use in semi-auto rifle's, also heard of a guy that broke his browning bar from using them.Again , thank's guy's. Rick.

Maybe your problem lies with heat waves of the barrel as it heats up?? Was the 300 yd shots the last of the string? If it shot 2" at 200yds your 300yd groups are puzzeling.

A 99 Savage will shoot well at 300 yards. They are accurate rifles.

The problem is only the 20" group after good groups at shorter range. Perhaps it was the mixing of ammo as I read that coated Failsafes were shot also.

I would clean the bbl good, check for loose screws including the one that holds the butt stock to the receiver. Also get some regular loads when you start with the clean bbl and fire them first.

On that high energy load, does the action open by itself upon firing.?

Trying to fix this rifle over the internet is tough! A bunch of us out here just wanting to get our paws on it and tinker with it and the ammo until it's shooting right! We all know that it should shoot better, but when all we can do is type instead of actually messing with it... ARGH! By the way... If you ever want to sell that Model 99, I mean since it won't shoot and all... :-)

Green 788 is right. The twist rate is 1 in 12". However, that should not be a problem. I have two rifles in .308 Win. and one in 30-06 that will, repeat, will stabilize 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullets. The high energy loads should deliver enough velocity to insure stabilization.
The question is this. If the load is accurate at 100 and 200 yards, what is different at 300? I wish there was some way we could see a picture of the groups. That just might furnish the clue necessary to figure this out.
FWIW. I have a Ruger RSI (International) that will not stabilize spitzer 180 gr. bullets. Change that to a 180 gr. Sierra round nose and the gun thinks is a bench rest rifle wannabe. My wife RSI is the same way with 180 gr. bullets. The 165 gr. Speer spitzer flat base works just fine though. That rifle has a 1 in 10" twist.
Paul B.

well guy's , my buddy stopped by to-nite, who has been reloading for year's, and has a load he has been using on moose for year's. He say's he has taken 6 moose with his load's , 165 gr. bullet's.didn't get into specific's because i don't know even what he is talking about, but i trust him and i am going to try his 165 gr, bullet's this weekend, checked every thing on rifle to-nite (mounts, stock , etc. )every thing seems ok.Going to try those federal's first, back at 100 yds. to see if they shoot the same as sight in.and if not i got a big problem.I never thought something like this could eat a-way at ya like this.driving me nut's.oh, can you guy's tell me , can you reload nickle platted brass.(winchester fail safe)i'll get back to you's as soon as i can on this matter. Thank's again -Rick.

Richard:

Yes, you can reload nickle plated brass. No problem. I also have a Savage 99 in .308. Since your buddy is going to load for you, here's what works well in my rifle.

Winchester Brass
42 grains AA2520
CCI Large Rifle Primer
Whatever 180 grain bullet you prefer
(loaded to recommended length)

My rifle will shoot any 180 grain bullet better than I can. Good luck

Ryan

P.S.: If you're still having accuracy problems, do a search in the gunsmithing section for Savage 99. There are a few simple tweaks that can be done to a Savage to improve accuracy.

I find it diffiult to believe that you are getting a 2" group at 200 yards, yet a 20" group t 300! This defies explanation. If you're getting 2' @ 200, it should be a lot tighter at 300, regardless of drop! As for being too hot, how is extraction? My experience has been that a Savage Model 99 will show intolerance for pressures by giving hard extraction much sooner than a bolt action does. I have tried the Fed. High-En. .30/'06 ammo, and found it a lot less accurate than my homemade stuff!!

If it's not mixed ammo then it is either as 788 says, the twist rate is not fast enough to stabilize the bullet, or for some reason the projectile is going sub sonic between 200 and 300 yards. The 1:12 twist should be able to stabilize the 180's.

It will be interesting to see if the 165's solve your problem.

I can't explain the extreme loss of accuracy from 200 to 300 yards, but I think that if it is due to insufficient rate of twist, the bullet holes at 300 yards should be at least partly key-holed?

A very puzzled Bill

Something is way off. If you really are 2.5 high at 100 yds., you should be much closer to the printed results. I suspect a loose, or defective scope. I mean your velocity has to be on the order of 2100-2200 fps. to do that if it is the cause.
But a bad scope, one suffering from reticule shift, would create these results, in both accuracy, and trajectory.
Or a loose mount. Check the mounts first. E

what area are you hunting? did you get your tags?
I'm going up to 24 kapuskasing but alas no tags this year

cheers kris

hy, Kromer; I will be hunting wmu 4 at sioux - lookout, going for 2 week's, 4 of us and 1 bull tag,then after that i will be in Algonquin park in wmu 54, just for a couple of day's hunting, have 1 bull tag there but it will probably be used up by time i get in.Sorry to hear about no tag's, that i have heard a lot this year.If our hunt in sioux-lookout don't pan out i'm sure the walleye fish'n will make up for it.

Dump the .308 and get a real rifle!

RICHARD,
You have several things working against you. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bad mouthing your rifle or calibre. Since it is a C model, it may have a little age on it. During its time it may have taken many heads of various game. You, IMHO, have one of the finest whitetail rigs ever made. However it is never going to duplicate factory ballistics. Factory test rifles have tight chambers and bores as well as 26" barrels. As a result your 21" barrel, large chamber and normal size bore may have as much as 300 to 400 fps less velocoty. As if that wasn't enough, the .308 in a Savage has a 1-12" twist. While there are no hard and fast rules, your rifle just may not stabilize the 180 grain bullet of that shape. The Savage has a pretty good action for a lever action, but a lever action just isn't as accurate as you might wish. I hate to bee the bearer of bad news, but under the circumstances you may be getting the best your rifle can give you.

I would try the 180gr round nose first,but why 300 yds?I`ve never hunted moose,but this seems very long range for a 308 on such a large animal.I just drew my first michigan elk permit and they even reccomend a larger caliber if you can shoot it well.I was going to use my 45-70 but only reccomended with heavy handloads,I built a 9.3x62 mauser on my 98 switch barrel gun for a little over $100,this seems like a small investment compared to the hunt`s cost,and it shoots like a dream out as far as I can sight-in (250 yds).Good luck.and yes I know,"the man with only one gun knows how to use it"

I own a 30-06 with a 26" 1-12 twist, it happiest with the 150's, struggles with the 165's and absoutly hates anything heavier.
Each bullet LENGTH (not weight, which is why a RN can be more accurate than a Spitzer of the same weight) needs a certan RPM to stabalize. You simply can not get enough velocity out of your rifle to keep the 180's Part's stable over distance.
Most barrel manufactures recogmend (in 30cal) a 1-10 twist for bullets over 170gr, with the 1-12 recogmended for the 135-165gr range.
Try the 165's and (just for grins) give some 150's a try also.

Just a thought, 300 yards is a bit of distance. Is it possible that the cross hairs are to large to get a good point of aim at that distance?
Heave duplex covers a lot of target.... (sight picture)

Just seems that there has been no real answer for your group size....

Keep us posted... Later....

[ 09-15-2002, 19:27: Message edited by: Mauserkid ]

Richard Wayne, the mirage caused by the heat waves coming off the fields between you and a 300-yard target could very easily explain the poor grouping at that distance! Any high-power rifle competitor will verify that mirage is a real problem, and a crosswind makes it even more deceptive. Also, the higher the power of the scope the more it magnifies this effect!!

You may not be getting the speed you think from the ammo. Also you may not be up to shooting 300 yards.

I don't understand why you are worried about 300 yrd shots??? If you see a moose at 300 yards I would be shooting at it. Get closer! Moose don't wank around in farmers fields so I can't see any 300 yard shots.

The 308 is running out of steam at 300 yards anyhow.

I'm moose hunting next week in 17A in Manitoba. My 300 Win Mag is sighted in right on at 100 yards.

[ 09-15-2002, 20:34: Message edited by: Ranger Dave ]

hey guy's, don't get me wrong i'm not running around the north country trying to make 300 yd. shot's, but if the opurtunity exist's i will take it, only if i have the confidence in what i'm shooting.As far as having enough rifle to do the job, i think it's marginal, but adequate if bullet placement is proper.(know your rifle, if it's 50 yds. or 300 yds.)As far as having enough energy at 300 yds., i know guy,s that do it.(the person that,s reloading my 165 gr. hornady's)Another buddy shot a bull last year with , get this a borrowed rem. 270, at 460 pace's. He spined it.(in my eye's a fluke shot)would not even think of shooting at that range.As far as my 308, i have it shooting pretty good now, (after replacing the scope)we will know better after the moose hunt, if i get lucky.I'll let you's know latter how thing's turned out. Thank's guy's , and have a enjoyable hunt this fall. Rick.

Whoa! correct me if I'm wrong but the 99-C late manufacture, the C meaning clip is a 1x10 twist...The early Mod. 99C did have a 1x12 twist but was not made in .308 caliber.....

I also find something wrong with a rifle that will shoot 2" at 200 and then 20" at 300..that just doesn't jibe balistically....

Although it shouldn't make all that much difference in accuracy, if I suspected that I was going to take a 300 yard shot with a 308-or anything else for that matter, I sure would consider using a spitzer style bullet instead of a round nose. Although it might not make a difference at 100 yards, I can pretty much guarrantee a difference in power and trajectory at 300. I have a Remington 700 with a 1:12 inch twist, and gotten good groups with Hornady 180 grain flat based spitzers and IMR 4064, Reloader 15 and Hogdon H380 and BLC-2.

A note of caution on reloading for the Savage 99's. If you are going to push the 308 loads you are going to get case head seperation in a very few loading.
I had 2 different 308 Win Savage 99's (and wish I still had at least one of them) and both were great shooting rifles but once I tried to push the velocity/pressure I seprated the cases. Remington cases were the worst, after one reload you could see signs of head seperation. Winchester and Federal would go 3 or 4 loading without trouble. Both of these rifles were checked out by 2 different smiths for head space and both were fine, also the loads were no where near 308Win recommedationed max loads in any manual.
The 99's are great actions but do have just a bit of "flex" in the actions when loaded to rated pressure for the 308Win and the cases will lengthen. Make sure you don't set the shoulder of the case back any more then you absolutly have to to get proper function.

I highly recommed using new brass (or at most once fired and completely inspected) cases when hunting. A seperated case can run a hunt in a hurry.

Get a dentist type pick and "feel" the internal case wall starting from the base. If you feel any depression/ring starting (usually just up from the head) toss the case. You will know what I mean if you try a case that has been fired near rated pressure a couple of time in a 99.

Good Hunting
Jeff in ND

I have a 99 in .308, shooting 150 gr Norma SPs my first 3 shot group at 100 yds was less than 3/8ths inch. I was astounded. After further shooting, I can honestly say, that with that load it will shoot 3 shot 3/4 inch center to center groups any time I do my part. All these groups are with a 1.5x5 Leupold on it, at 5x, of course. I know this sounds like BS but it is a fact. In my case, the shooter is the limiting factor, not the gun. With that performance, and having a large hoard of the Norma ammo, I haven't really tried anything else. So, in general, the level of accuracy of 99s is not the issue, they will shoot, and many of them will shoot as good as most factory bolt actions. I think, when you really have tuned a load and the action the bolts do better, but out of the box against most hunting guns, I'll take a 99s chances. Everyone talks about all those 1/2 inch factory rifles, they are not quite as common as you would think.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff in ND:
[QB]A note of caution on reloading for the Savage 99's. If you are going to push the 308 loads you are going to get case head seperation in a very few loading.
I had 2 different 308 Win Savage 99's (and wish I still had at least one of them) and both were great shooting rifles but once I tried to push the velocity/pressure I seprated the cases. Remington cases were the worst, after one reload you could see signs of head seperation. Winchester and Federal would go 3 or 4 loading without trouble. Both of these rifles were checked out by 2 different smiths for head space and both were fine, also the loads were no where near 308Win recommedationed max loads in any manual.
The 99's are great actions but do have just a bit of "flex" in the actions when loaded to rated pressure for the 308Win and the cases will lengthen. Make sure you don't set the shoulder of the case back any more then you absolutly have to to get proper function.

I highly recommed using new brass (or at most once fired and completely inspected) cases when hunting. A seperated case can run a hunt in a hurry.

Get a dentist type pick and "feel" the internal case wall starting from the base. If you feel any depression/ring starting (usually just up from the head) toss the case. You will know what I mean if you try a case that has been fired near rated pressure a couple of time in a 99.
--------------------------------------------------
I agree with this post in it's entirety.

Don

The 99 is a very informative rifle when it comes to pressure, if your a bit hot you will feel the lever pop down just a tad when you fire one, thats time to back off a grain or two...

They are great guns and there is no need to load them to max...I load them about 2 grs. under most book max loads...Remember a 100 FPS one way or the other is zilch in performance or killing power from a hunters standpoint...If one puts a lot of need on a 1000 yard hell blazer then get a 300 Wby and have at it, but I doubt it will improve your hunting by much...

I doubt that anyone can tell any difference in a RN or Spitzer in the hunting fields...Even on paper it would be less than 2 or 3 inches at 300 yards and I can wiggle on or off that much at 300 yards, even with a rest.