quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
John, Mark D runs 250's at 2,850 in his 23" bbl'd 340. He's told me he can lean on it to get more but is comfortable with the 2,850 load. I've shot his 340 and found it quite shootable. It helps that Mark has forgotten more about rifles than a lot of guys will ever know and, as a result, set it up "right" with good barrel weight... makes it darn shootable and eminantly packable.

As an aside, another buddy had a 26" bbl'd 340 with a cut rifle HS Precision bbl. I chrono'd it for him once with the Wby factory 250's... it clocked 3,020! Amazing how hot the Wby factory stuff is gassed. This rifle had the WBY freebore as well.

Brad,
My 24" "experiment" was a custom built M70 with Douglas air gauged barrel and short throat. We started with a 338Win. throat dimension and progressively lengthened it to Wby factory spec. The best I could get from it was a bit over 2800fps w/o extremely high pressure. It was removed and replaced with a Krieger 26" barrel, and was again throated short to start with. As my testing went through various stages it was throated out to Wby dimension and finally shortened to 24". This one would make an honest 3000fps at 26" but when cut to 24" it struggled to make 2850fps with sane loadings. I also owned a Wby MkV in 340 with the 26" barrel and it would do no better than 2900fps with top loadings. Neither barrel was accurate with any loading that made much over 2800fps, BTW. My first 340 was also a MkV with a 26" barrel, but that was in 1973 and chronos weren't common back then so I have no idea what the velocity was.
All the while, I had a 24" 338 that was doing a bit over 2700fps and was MUCH less obnoxious to shoot. Since I wanted a shorter rifle, the 338 was an easy choice. Also, at one time I owned a custom M70 made by Biesen that had a 22" barrel. It was very light and handy, a joy to haul around in the hills. Problem was, the barrel would never make over 2600fps with a 250gr bullet! I eventually had Biesen rebarrel it to 300Win mag and was happy ever after.

Brad; I'm sorry but it as you who threw out the first broadside with personal attack as quoted by you in this fashion:
"This is the kind of stuff that get's so tiresome on these forums... absolutely ZERO experience but plenty of opinion..."

I've never claimed, nor am I know that my hunting/rifle experience exceeds yours.

As far as me being a sniper, not even close, and I never said I was. But in my current capacity in the anit-terror business, I do get a lot of exposure that otherwise as an aviator, I would never see. The navy BTW, has no sniper MOS per se. I really wasn't comparing snipers to hunting in Newfoundland you know, but issues like muzzle blast and velocity do share a commonality, it's pure and simple ballistics. Personal experience with a 23" barrel? You are correct, I've had none, but I do have experience, quite a bit I might add, with 24" and 26" barrel 340 Weatherbys. And, if my 24" barreled Weatherby showed significantly more muzzle blast and in round numbers 120-150 less velocity than my 26" 340 AND the Weatherby Custom Shop guys recommend a 26" over a 24", it doesn't take a whole lot to infer that with a 23" 340 ( not to mention a 22"), why waste it when you can achieve equal velocity with a 338 win with a lot less powder. I don't need the "experience" of sticking my finger in a light socket to know that if I do, I'll get shocked. So we can continue this or just drop it, like I said before, it doesn't take a whole lot to throw out insults from behind a monitor. jorge

John, very interesting tests. Frankly I'm not a big 340 fan as, for me, they require more rifle weight than I care to haul to remain shootable. But I consider myslef a bit of a recoil wimp. Again your post reflect's what individual's barrels are! All four of my 22" bbl'd 338's would comfortably do 2,675 to 2,720 with 250's... go figure! Regardless, as you point out, a 300 mag has a lot going for it on NA BG.

Jorge, resume aside, your credential's don't lend themself to holding the opinion a 23" bbl'd 340's is a "WASTE OF TIME"... seriously.

Next time I need anti-terror information you'll be the first I'll ask...

One thing I've learned in spades over the years is that velocity varies tremendously between individual rifles of the same caliber firing the same exact loads through barrels of exactly the same make and length. It's a phenomenon that can be a bit hard to explain, but that's just the way it is.

It's easy for me to get all pumped over my #1 338 Win. Mag. that has a fast bbl., but on the other hand, my identical #2 rifle isn't quite so fast across the board by some 30 fps., although it hasn't been shot nearly as much, either.

I've also owned 338 Win. Mag. rifles with 24" bbls. that struggled to get to 2650 fps. with any 250 gr. handload that I could come up with. And yes, I've seen custom 338 Win. Mags. with custom 22" and 23" bbls. that easily made over 2700 fps. with 250s. In fact, one of my friends owned a very light 338 Win. Mag. with a 22" bbl. on a Model 700 action from H-S Precision that was just as fast as my #1 rifle, but, man, that sucker was loud, and it kicked light a bay mule!

I wish I had Kute's luck, but in many ways the most disappointing 338s I've ever owned have been pre-64 Model 70s. Many of them just didn't shoot, and many of them have been slow. I owned beautiful pre-64 Alaskan that couldn't go much over 2600 fps. with 250s, the barrel fouled like crazy, and it wouldn't shoot better that 1.5" groups on its best day.

Barrel length doesn't tell the whole story with medium bores. Internal barrel dimensions, etc., etc., etc. have a lot to do with the outcome as well. In my opinion, this applies to the 340 Weatherby as well.......

AD

Brad,
Barrels do vary, and local conditions like altitude, air density and temperature all make for interesting variables that can really affect the numbers we see.
I'm not a recoil wimp, but I'll happily pass on it unless the gains are significant, in my view. I have always wanted to like the 340, but the accuracy and velocity of my 3 rifles never lived up to the recoil I had to endure! In the end, for a light and easy to shoot 338cal rifle, the 338Win is the one for me.
If I want more horsepower in that bore size, and believe me I did and still do, the 338/404 is where I go. It delivers all the goods for the price in recoil necessary to have that much extra over the 338Win.

John: A few weeks ago I got to shoot an Accumark in 338/378, with a 26" barrel of course. Accuracy was typical Weatherby, well under MOA. How does that compare with the 338/404?

Brad; Seriously {sic} , I feel much better now that you'd think to ask me about anything.
jorge

jorge,
The 338/378 is a lot more horse. But the recoil is too severe for me in a hunting weight rifle. In that one you definitely need 26" or longer barrels to get the most out of it. I used to hunt with a guy from OK. who was really into long range shooting. He used a 30/378 and a 338/378, both equipped with 28" barrels. His 338/378 would do an honest 3300fps with 250gr bullets and shot into 1/2" MOA out to 500yds. To see him shoot it was quite impressive.

John: like you, I am not recoil sensitive per se, but that 338/378 got my attention. It was for sale at a very good price, but right now as you know, my "focus" is elsewhere, as in the quest for the perfect 416 Rem. Maybe I need to get Allen in on the equation jorge

I have the 338 RUM with a 26" barrel. It shoots a little faster than the WBY 340. If you take off 2" that is going to slow your bullets FPS down about 25 to 35 fps. Witch isn't a whole lot
but just the same that may mean 25 to 50 yds less total range.

Jorge, if you can't sucessfully hunt 99% of all of the world's big game with some sort of "regular" 300 magnum or 338 Win. Mag, you're not going to be able to hunt 'em successfully with anything else. Those 338 RUM and 338-378 Wby. cartridges are a handicap and a burden that you don't need. Bigger isn't always better, and often bigger is actually way less....

If I were you, I'd stick with your 338 Winchester, 300 Wby., and Ruger 416 Rigby for the time being. Then I'd sell everything else -- or at least some of everything else -- and hire Echols to build you a 416 Rem. Mag.. Then you'd own the best 416 you'll ever own. In fact, if you owned a 300 and a 416 by D'Arcy, you'd have the best of everything, and you could then get rid of everyhtihng else, hunt the world, and have no excess baggage in the safe at all..........

AD

Allen: I was going to PM or email you regarding my last post and the 416. I'll drop you a note but I communicated with Hill Country at your suggestion. I'd love to get rid of a lot of my current battery, but that is easier said than done! tell you what though, if I HAD one, the first thing that would go would be a 23" barreled Weatherby jorge

I don't think that I have had any particular luck with repect to my rifles, I simply re-bed until a heavy for caliber premium bullet, usually a Nosler PT. will average around an inch for three shots at 100 meters when driven as fast as safely possible. My .338s give me lots of one inch groups, average about 1.25" and my Dakota does better; my velocities are usually a bit under average max in all of my rifles. No biggie, I am satisfied with decent accuracy and don't worry about target-grade results as I can't shoot that well anymore and never shoot at over 300 yds, prefering 100-150 yd. shots which are average here in B.C.

I do agree about the P-64 bbls. they are a bitch to clean and I just came back from a local range with my old, beater .270 FWT, wearing a Elite 4000 B&L 1.5x6 scope I bought in about '92. I shot four groups of my std. .270 load, a very warm 150 NP and they were four perfect triangles of .85 each which this rifle consistently shoots. It is kinda bashed about, like me, but in a Brown kevlar stock, etc. it is easy to pack and whacks deer with only one miss in about ten kills. So, I can live with the scrubbing as I care about field performance more than tiny groups or ultra-fast velocities; besides, I have never had even a minor mechanical problem with a P-64 in the nearly 39 years I have used them and that is important to me.

Gentlemen, I felt obligated to make one more post on this subject. The speeds I posted above were reliable and well within safe limits in the guns they were used in. I consider case life as the ultimate indicator of safe pressures. Primer pocects in these loads stayed tight for 4-5 loadings, thats not to say they were loose after that I just don't shoot my hunting brass more than this. I certanly don't want to contribute to any animosity on here I just want to make it clear that I would not post questionable data.

MTM: None taken! On reflection, I should have been more explicit and included the words "in my experience", as on the two Weatherbys I own, the 26" afforded me better performance, so if you follow that logic train a 22" or even a 23" would be worse. What I didn't stop to consider were Allen's as usual sage comments about every rifle is different and I have no doubt your rifle achieved the velocities you claim. I can guarantee you that my rifles cannot achieve those velocities with those short barrels. The testing I alluded to in the service, involved the Weatherby Threat response rifle. Thanks for posting. jorge

Thanks Jorge, I might also add that all my 340 brass was reformed Win. H&H which may have helped a little. I also had a factory Sako that wouldn't break 2850 fps.

I have heard the 338 RUM has a reputation for excellent accuracy. I suspect it may be less finiky with a shorter barrel than the 340 with a slightly shorter, unbelted case. If anyone has expecrience with this cartridge It would be interesting to hear.

Don't over look the 338-06 Akley Improved case. It is pretty close to the 338 Win Mag with maybe a bit less recoil. I have a custom rig in the standard A-Square case but it is closer to a 318 WR. Pulling the trigger is a much more enjoyable recreation compared to a 340 Wby - that is for certain.