quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

The .338 Win Mag (I've got one for sale) is a much heavier kicker as would be the .300 Ultra Mag. The Ultra Mag also has the liability of limited ammo availability and lesser resale value.

Perhaps Redlander has run into a stock fit issue. I own or have owned 7 or 8 different 338 Win Mags, and 5 different 300 Ultra's, including otherwise identical rifles in the 2 calibers. To me the 300 Ultra is noticably nastier to shoot than the 338 Win mag and again I've shot identical rifles side by side.

Another way of looking at the 300 Ultra is that it will shoot the same exact bullets that your 308 Win shoots to the same velocity at 250yds that you 308 shoots them at the muzzle. Again it's a longer range 30 Cal. All a 300 Mag does is shoot the same size bullets a little faster or to the same impact velocity further away. A 338 or 375 adds versitility in that it will shoot larger heavier deeeper penetrating bullets that you might need for larger game..............DJ

As a point of order and clarification, what I ment to convey, and obviously didn't was that BOTH the .338 Win Mag AND .300 Ultra Mag have a good deal more recoil than the .300 Win Mag.

BTW, if I was going to jump to a heavier cartidge, I'd go with with the .375 H&H. As a matter of fact I've got a Model 70 SS Classic headed home from McMillan after a new stock fitting/finishing. In this caliber, I've found heavier bullets at slower velocities have less perceived recoil than lighter bullets at higher velocities.

I have a lot of different calibers and I live, worked and recreate in BIG bear country. For a cartridge larger than the .270Win., .280Rem., .308 or .30-06 class and I own and shoot all of these, my hands-down choice is the .338 Win. with 250 premium bullets.

I have had several .375s and have one now; I have had a few .300 Mags. as well, but, for me, the .338 Win. is the BOMB here in B.C. A combo of a light .308 such as a BLR and a CRF .338 Win. plus a light CRF .270 or .280 and a good .22LR covers everything we have here and the .338 is lighter to carry than any .375. I have loaded for and shot the .338 for exactly 38 years and will NEVER be without one.

I have several choices in the range from .308W to a .338WM and find I don't use the middle rifles as much any more.

When going on an "Elk hunt" where it is the quarry I take the .338WM stoked with 250gr Woodleigh PP as it is very accurate, and will hammer one from a few feet out to farther than I'd shoot.

I use .25 cal for deer hunting mostly. Although I'd be just as happy with my 7mm RM. I have a .308 Mod 600 that is quite handy and rides in the vehicle a lot. It's versitile. My .30-06 hasn't been hunting in a long time.

I'm partial to the 7mm RM for a deer/elk combo hunt, mostly 'cause it's slightly flatter shooting. It's plenty big enough for elk although I'd prefer a bigger hole, with 160gr XLC's it will still penetrate well. On deer it works very well but is more than needed.

If I had to whittle my accumulation down to one it'd be the .338 that I'd keep. And if I could only use one load for everything, it would probably be the 210gr Partition.

......but what fun would that be? Nate

The 35 Whelan and/or 45-70. Actually, both is better!

For a general purpose North American round, I think the .300 Win Mag is perfect. If you have 10 rifles, then you can have specialized calibers, but for a do-it-all I think the .300WM is the best. It has long range, available in a light rifle (unlike .375 and higher), reasonable recoil (more w/ .338 or .300RUM), available ammo (better than any except .30-06 and .270), suitability for wide range of game.

If you were hunting every day in bear country, or if you were MOSTLY hunting moose and elk, with only a few deer/hogs, then maybe step up to the recoil of the .338WM or .300RUM. Or you could step up to the extra weight of the .375. If you were shooting a lot at long range, pick the .300RUM. But for a good blend, pick the .300WM.

Steve

Well you’re lucky you say your friend has a 300 Ultra. Shoot it if you haven't. That may affect your decision. In fact shooting any caliber before you buy it is very sound advice when you start to move up. Recoil isn’t an issue with some folks but I’ve seen people that couldn’t deal with it and their accuracy/hunting suffered.

Bigger than a .308? Try a 9.3mm, .376 Steyr, or a .375 Holland & Holland, you don't need more than that.

LLS
Mannlicher Collector

ANYTHING that you don't think a 30-06 is enough gun for
that makes you consider a 300magnum (whatever variety)
is something you are probably better off shooting at with a 338WinMag.

you see the thing is that driving 30caliber bullets faster
(even heavier 30caliber bullets) increases the range that the bullets are effective at but does not increase their ability to be effective.

Basically I just don't see the point for a 300Mag for shooting at animals bigger then deer unless you need to reach across a canyon, and for that a 7mmMag works just as well and doesn't beat you up as much.

And going from say... a 300WinMag or 300WbyMag to a 300Ultra doesn't change that picture any, except for the soreness of your shoulder.

Basically, anything worth shooting at with 200gr or heavier bullets is better shot with 200grain bullets from a 338mag or 358mag.

and with deference to Redlanders opinion if there is a difference in recoil between a 338Winmag firing 225's and a 300WinMag firing 200's I can't feel it.

Excepting big bears I wouldn't feel terribly undergunned with a 30-06 and infact one of my '06's is nearly an extension of my body, but If I had an opportunity to shoot an Elk or a Moose I'd want something bigger.

If you had a chance at a Moose or Elk I think most guides would be happier to see you show up with a well worn 30-06 that you looked "familiar with" than a shiny new Magnum.



AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Cupped_N_Fallin:
I am knida in a predicament here.

The biggest gun I have is a .308(And it is in retirement to pass down to my son. I deer hunt with a Sendero .25-06.

Heres my delima, I am looking into Moose, Elk, Mule Deer and Hogs over the next few years with freinds. A freind has a .300 Ultra. I have found one that I really like and am in the process of possibly buying it. I know there is a great difference between the .25-06 and the .300 Ultra Mag. But I am thinking that is a big space and for Hogs and Mulies it may be over kill not to mention cost of ammo. Heres my deal, I would like to know what caliber would in your opinion be a great caliber between the .25-06 and the .300 Ultra Mag? Maybe for the Hogs, Mulies and possibly Elk.

I Reload and have considered the 7 Mag, 7 STW, and 300 Win mag(as the in between calibers). However I have never reloaded Belted Mags and have heard they are alittle difficult in comp. to non belted cases. From what I have read on here people really like the 300 Win Mag due to the choices in bullet weights and recoil selection due to powder charges and bullet weights. Are there any others that you all may suggest as well?

*****I must add that I am not a fan of the WSM, WSSM, and SAUM; not to offend anyone. But I just will not bring them into consideration.

This may sound stupid but and been milled over thousands of times. But it is an honest question and I have really enjoyed reading everyones different inputs on other topics around here.

Thanks in advance,

CNF

I have a M700 270. I wanted something bigger.

I went through the exact process you described three months ago. Narrowed my choices down to a 300 WM or a 338WM. Plenty of gun for what big game is here in Monsoon Central. Narrowed gun choices down to a Stevens 200, Savage 110 or a Weatherby Vanguard. Found a Weatherby Vanguard 300 WBY mag on clearance for $299. Not much difference between a 300WM and a 300 WBY in a 24" barrel. Bought the Weatherby.
I solved the recoil problem by getting a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock. They come with a Decelerator recoil pad. Put on a Nikon 4x40 scope and away we go.

I handload. Bought a RCBS neck sizing die. Didn't bother to read all the propaganda about belted cases. Neck sizing helps case life and makes reloading much easier. I had more problems picking bullets to try than I did actually reloading the rounds.

Having said all that, I wouldn't have any problem using my 270 or my M99 Savage(in 300 Savage of course) on any of the game you described.

(Shhh...if I can pull it off without the wife finding out, I'll get a 338 Vanguard anyway....)

ZM

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
(even heavier 30caliber bullets) increases the range that the bullets are effective at but does not increase their ability to be effective.

Yes, actually it does. Do some terminal performance tests with a 240 launched from a RUM vs a 150, 165 or even a 180 launched at a slower velocity and compare not only the depth of penetration but the diameter and total volume of the wound channel.

I have. It's an eye opening experience.

308 is plenty of gun, but try to get one 375 HH also, then you do not need more rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Jon A:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
(even heavier 30caliber bullets) increases the range that the bullets are effective at but does not increase their ability to be effective.

Yes, actually it does. Do some terminal performance tests with a 240 launched from a RUM vs a 150, 165 or even a 180 launched at a slower velocity and compare not only the depth of penetration but the diameter and total volume of the wound channel.

I have. It's an eye opening experience.

I'll concede I could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time, but show me a 30gal propelling 250grain bullets and I'll show you a 338caliber propelling bullets the same weight or even heavier bullets faster...

I also know of one experiment where someone showed that above a certain speed most bullets penetrate LESS and that test indicated that the ideal speed for dangerous game bullets is actually no more than about 2400fps.


I'm sure the destruction created by a 220gr Partition Semi-spitzer launched from a 300RUM at 3000fps is impressive, though frankly I doubt that it does as well as a 200gr partition at 3100fps because of the difference in BC between the two bullets guarantees that the lighter bullet will be moving faster at the target. a .352BC vs a .481BC is a big difference.
the 220gr fired at 2900fps will have slowed to ~1700fps at 500yds, the 200gr bullet will be moving at slightly faster than 1900fps 200fps vs a 10% weight difference?
Close in I doubt it would make any difference at all, and I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference in wound channel comparing a 180gr 30cal bullet.

But FWIW the 338WinMag will launch a 210gr
bullet at 3020 and at short range I doubt there's be a difference and at long range the edge again slips to the .338 bullet.


a 250gr Barnes Original? the 300RUM can only drive them to ~2750 or so...
(and I think Barnes quoted BC of .419 is overly optimistic) so you are going to burn 94grs of H870 to drive a 250gr bullet to 2775fps.

The 338WinMag will do the same job with only 71grs of H4831 and be launching a 250gr bullet but a better .473BC, close or long I'll tend towards the 338's for any "heavy work".

And I want something Really heavy to kill something heavy I have a supply of .338dia 275gr Speer HotCores.

Of course you can counter by suggesting that a 338RUM should be used.

I don't think you need that much power, but I suppose "need" has nothing to do with it.

I know I don't NEED a 338WM to kill an elk
and from an intellectual point I can say that mabey a 7mmMag is "overkill" in many situations,
but it's like hammers, you can usually do the work of a small hammer with a big one, but if you need to do a big hammer job with a small hammer you are basically screwed....

All in the name of discussion, lets avoid a pointless pissing match like can be generated in the African hunting forum by merely saying:
"Africa? 45-70?" in the title line and nothing but an "X" in the subject and all the heavyweights will come out slinging feces at one another...

It's ALMOST amusing to watch...

In the end he'd probably be best served with a 7mmRemMag of his choice because a 7mm kicks little more than a 30-06 and because of that he'd more likely to hit with it.
And excepting big bears it's good for anthing in North America including elk (for which the caliber was developed) and Moose

AllanD

tiggertate-our gun of choice for "fish-eating birds" on our place is a .45-70 loaded with 300 gr Barnes HPs at about 2200fps. Does a right nice job.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
but show me a 30gal propelling 250grain bullets and I'll show you a 338caliber propelling bullets the same weight or even heavier bullets faster...

The 338 RUM can obviously launch 250's faster, but the 338 Win won't come close. One data point from one manual doesn't give a very complete picture. With 240's, 2950 was easy with old H870 from a 26". I'm predicting US869 will do even better. But it wasn't my intention to get in a ballistics arguement....

My only point was if you actually test a 240 at 2950 vs a 180 (any type) or smaller at the same or lower velocity...there's quite a difference. I suppose there are many measures of what people consider "effectiveness," but when one makes a bigger, deeper hole I wouldn't say the two are equal. With even better 240's and 250's on the way for 30 Cal, this is something people should keep in mind when choosing between rounds--especially if they like to reach out and touch (OK, really, really THUMP) things from afar.