Now I thought MK bullets would not expand.Which is it?????Do they blow up??????Or don't expand.....

If any of you have any doubt that MK's make a good hunting bullet.Please click on link above and read....

Who here has actually shot an elk or moose with a MK, and what were the results?

Brad, I know, just trying to liven the place up a little. There is no way in Hell I would use a MK for hunting.

See I come from the mindset of let him do it and it will be funny when he comes on here complaining about a bad trip or we will so impressed when he bags some great trophies. Some people do well with positive reinforcement, I come from negitive. Like when I was a kid, my grandfather wouldn't stop me from putting tweezers in the socket. He figured I would do it once, and he bet I wouldn't do it again. Worked like a champ.

Boyd, thanks for joining this fray. Also, thanks for the load advice. My powder is H4350 and my load is the upper limit of your advice, WLRM primer, Win case. I used Norma cases 1st and tried Fed 215M primers but experimented with
lower cost components and found no loss of accuracy.

Everyone here missed the point of the picture of the whitetail. What I deduct from that picture is the complete pass through and large exit wound that if imposed on an broadside elk body instead would at least be in the 2d lung, or could easily reach the heart on a slightly quartering angle.

I have come to the conclusion that no amount of logic can convince people here that the SMK is a cup and core bullet plain and simple, and is no better or worse than was used on all N.A. game prior to premium bullets.

Likewise, anyone who has experience success with MKs on game was merely experimenting or stunt shooting, regless of previous successes. Therefore, even pictures prove nothing.

Some people are closed-minded and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. Also some want to continue to blame bullet failure for marksmanship failure so continuously debate the adequacy of this bullet or that. I am going to enjoy my hunt and when the correct shot opportunity comes confidence will be mine, both in the precision and the terminal ballistics.

RUFF,Try the Win large rifle primer.I have found them to work better in the wsm than the mag primer...

Gatehouse or anyone else wondering.

I've killed "many" elk and more deer then I care to try and remember and all with Sierra Match King bullets.

They are the only bullet I will use and have had fantastic success with them.

The 8 Point 135# Pennsylvania mountain Buck that I killed at 75 yards (Boyd Posted) was to show that Match Kings do expand at close range and also at Longrange.

Read Dan Lilja's Book that Boyd posted and you may find some interesting reading.

Use any bullet you want to use for hunting but, "my" choice will always be the MK from the success my longrange friends and I have had with them.

As for the original poster---yes the 190gr MK in the 300 WSM will do the job on "any" lope or elk.

Darryl Cassel

[ 07-17-2003, 08:43: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

Well I read Dan Lilja's article and I found it pretty disturbing. I see big game animals being regulated to the same status as prairie dogs. Merely a long range target. I'm not doubting the ability of the marksman but I see little ability as a hunter.

Jeff

Jeff

The "ability as a hunter" was taught to the Longrange hunter through years of being a "short Range" hunter.

We learned to watch the deer crossings and post ourselves high in valleys to watch our favorite trails. We also learned to be patient by sitting in out tree stands for hours above those crossings and trails. We learned to be squarrel and Turkey hunters and be patient in the woods.

We learned to watch certain areas that produced deer and elk on a regular basis in the west.

WE found it to be easy to go to those favorite spots and kill game at close range.

The difference now is, we still short range hunt that old way but, when we longrange hunt, our capability is to not just watch one hollow or set of trails that produces but, to watch a whole mountain in the far distance.
The "ability" of the LR hunter is to know the area you hunt, the ballistics of his rifles and what they will do (most short range hunters don't know much about their own rifle as they are "usually" 3 day a year hunters), to have "all" the equipment that is essencial to make that quick kill when the situation presents itself, to practice in the wood chuck fields and in 1000 yard matches all spring and summer in preperation of the Longrange hunt and to be able to find the animals you want in the far off distance.

If I just wanted to kill a buck, I could have done so everyday in PA in the past. Walking my land or State Forrest has taught me where to look for these animals. The same holds true with the far mountains. I have learned where to look in PA, Colorado and West Virginia every year.

The point is, if a person has NEVER tried the LR way, how would he know ANYTHING about the ability of the hunter who has hunted most every way there is to hunt but, prefers the LR way?

We find it MUCH harder hunting the LR way and placing the bullet from point A to point B at 1000 yards or in excess thereof, then to just pound the mountains and go to our favorite spots and kill our game. That's extremely easy to do for most big game hunters who have been doing it for over forty years now.

Darryl Cassel

The State of Idaho must not agree with your hunting methods. From their Regulations page:

Rifle and Shotgun

In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is
unlawful to pursue or kill big game animals:

� With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated on, the firearm or scope.
� With any firearm that, in combination with a scope,sling and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.

Bad

We don't use an electronic device attached to anything, we use rifles many times that are 16 Pounds or less and we hunt in Colorado, Montana and Wyoming "NOT" Idaho.

If we did hunt Idaho or ANY other State for that matter, we would be legal.

By the way, there is a 16 Pound class at the Williamsport 1000 yard matches. Muzzle brakes and big bore calibers are used all the time.
You can most certainly make clean kills with a 16 Pound rifle at extreme ranges.

Later
DC

[ 07-17-2003, 19:08: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

Sorry guys but I don't buy it. Again, I'm not questioning the marksmanship skill that some people posess. It is far greater than mine I won't argue that point. What I will disagree with is that plunking big game from extreme range is hunting. If you can get out of your truck, set up a bench, do jumping jacks, spend 5 minutes ranging and adjusting your scope, play a few songs accompanied by a marching band, grill some brats, and then squeeze the trigger while the game is completely unfazed because you are beyond their flight distance then it is purely shooting. JMHO.

Jeff

So you would say 20 guys walking through the woods yelling.Chasing deer from their bed's toward watchers who 99% of the time are shooting at running deer is hunting....Or sitting in a tree stand waiting for a deer to just happen along is hunting.But a person who spends years perfecting their shooting skill,and a person that spends days if not week's glassing a mountain trying to FIND an animal is not a hunter.And if you think a deer can't see or hear you at 6 or 700 yards,think again...

Nope. That isn't hunting. But neither is sitting on a road with your tailgate down, your 30 lb rifle on sandbags on a bench, with your militiary optical rangefinder.

[ 07-17-2003, 21:00: Message edited by: Badboyz ]

BAD,Then just what is HUNTING to you????

Jeff

A very good reply.

"Our right to do so" and we do keep it within the law at all times.

There's room for EVERY style of hunting one wishes to pursue and that includes every State also.

Clean and fast kills are the order of the day or should be in any endeavor or style of hunting.

Good hunting to all no matter what your style.
I have loading to do for a 1000 yard match this weekend-- bye

DC

Re: Hunting

According to my Webster's it is to chase game for food or sport.

No requirements for a stalk nor exclusions of any equipment that assists in precise bullet placement nor range limitations are mentioned. Does anyone have anything different than that from a dictionary?

Also from Webster's:

4. to traverse in search of prey

From American Heritage:

To search through (an area) for prey:

Also from Webster's

Waylay-to lie in wait for or attack from ambush.

I guess if we want to get definitional, then perhaps a more correct term would be "Long-range waylayer".

RUFF,Never shot a moly bullet.Ever....

Badboyz,

So in your opinion it is not possible for a disabled hunter to hunt, so therefore that individual is not even a hunter? Also, in your opinion then the several organizations for disabled hunters across the country are not valid?

Darryl Cassel,

Thanks for interjecting additional experience in this debate. Best wishes for your success in the match.

RUFF,He's gonna need it.He beat me last time out.He shot a high 6 inch ten shot group at 1000 yards.I shot an 8 inch....I'm out for revenge now..

Boyd, best wishes to you as well.

I will drop my rifle off at the gunsmith Saturday so I should be experimenting with the WLR primers my mid August.

Should I loose velocity with the WLR vice WLRM? Will I need to increase my charge to maintain burn consistency? My charge is currently 66.2 gr H4350, WLRM primer, Win case, SMK moly 190, COL 2.96". Av mv is 2981 fps from 26" Mike Rock 5R barrel measured from the face of the action.

My new barrel is also a Rock 11.27:1 5R rifled stainless and will be finished the same length. I realize it's load preference may be nothing like my present barrel so I am prepared to start load development from the beginning.

I will be experimenting with my H4350, Win WXR powder, which I have been told is nothing more than Re22 with shorter kernels, H4831, and VVN560. I am open to any other powders you might suggest.

My velocity goal is 2900 fps min but I wish to stay below 2990 fps.

[ 07-18-2003, 10:54: Message edited by: RuffHewn ]

Badboyz, I am just trying to clarify for myself YOUR definition of hunting, and what in YOUR opinion is not hunting.

You have already said a stalk must be included, and that movement from the truck to the stand does not qualify. You have said that the game must be close. How close is close enough? You implied that the animal should not be relaxed and oblivious to the hunter's presence. Should we shout before we take aim?

Ruffhewn,

What is my opinion of hunting has already been clarified. Your definition of hunting and my definition of hunting are different. But I'm not in charge of creating opinions or defining terms for the hunting community at large so I guess that you will have to find your own "Private Idaho".

By the way, the .300 WSM is an overhyped, redundant cartridge intended for the gullible neophytes. There, now you can have something constructive to question me upon.

Boyd

We can only have "TRUE REVENGE" when we shoot in the "SAME" relay like the last time out..

That was head to head the way a contest should be.
No relay advantage or disadvantage for either of us.

You have a 4th relay and I have a 7th this time. In reality you should have a better group or score then me but............. One never knows does one?

See you Saturday morning.

Later
Darryl

I'm not sure why the point about the "disabled" came about, but "the Disabled" should be afforded every advantage and opportunity to participate. I'm sure that each and every one, of the physically challenged individuals, given the chance, and were physically able to do so, would indeed much prefer to track, spot, stock, give chase, you know, Really hunt!
For example in 1997 while on an Elk hunt in Wyoming.
One day while at camp we were approached by a gentleman driving a custom 4x4 van asking if we had any luck spotting any Elk. You could clearly see the "Wheel chair lift" on the side. Turned out he was Disabled and had a special permit that allowed him to hunt & shoot from his vehicle!
I'll try not go into all the details but we took him to a spot, showed him where to park his van in the treeline, told him to be in that spot the next morning before day light and we would see if we could "Push" something his way.
The next morning as we were heading out we could see his headlights way off in the distance as he was making his way to his "Spot". It could not have been planned out any better!
About 30 minutes after dropping into top of this tree choked canyon we spotted the spooked herd of elk heading up a draw about a mile and a half away. They were heading straight up the saddle where the fellow and his van were waiting on a flat just above.
A few seconds after they disappeared over the rim we heard a single shot! "Alright!" we said to ourselves, and high fives all around!
When we finally made it back to the Man and his now very dead 6x6 Bull, we could see he had driven up as close to bull as he could get and was in his wheel chair outside the van, just sitting there, head down, kind of slumped in his seat!
Our first thought was "Oh shit he's had a heart attack or something!" As we got out of the truck, now thinking the worst, he raised his head and had Tears streaming down his face and a smile words can't discribe. Those Elk had many escape routes they could have taken, so there was a fair amount of luck involved. The one thing the man in the wheel chair said that really hits home here is:
"You don't know how lucky you are to be Healthy and physically able to hunt"
So gentlemen, get off your butts and truly enjoy the "Hunt"!

FULL DEFINTION OF HUNT, [not hand-picked parts]
Taken from Websters College Dictionary:
Hunt (hunt) v. <hunt-ed, hunt-ing> n.
v.t.
1. to chase or search for (game or other wild animals) for the purpose of catching or killing.
2. to pursue an animal or (a person) aggressively in order to capture (often fol. by down): to hunt down an animal or (a person) a kidnapper.
3. to search for; seek (often fol. by up or out): to hunt out the perfect birthday gift.
4. to search thoroughly; scour.
5. to pursue or take game in: Poachers have been hunting the king's woods.
6. to use or direct (a horse, hound, etc.) in chasing game.
v.i.
7. to engage in the pursuit, capture, or
killing of wild animals for food or in sport.
8. to make a search or quest (often fol. by
for or after).
n.
9. the act or practice of hunting game or other wild animals.
10. a search or pursuit; a seeking to find.
11. a group of persons associated or gathered
for the purpose of hunting."

To argue what is meant by the defintion of "Hunt" is like Clinton arguing the defintion of "IF".

[ 07-18-2003, 22:47: Message edited by: Marsh Mule ]

Marsh,

Good post and good story.

Bad

I just read your reply to Ruff concerning the 300 WSM and I have something to say to you that I was surprised about also.

In the new Hodgdon reloader magazine you will see when comparing the velocity of the 300 WSM to the 300 Wichester Mag that the shorter mag will stay with and "beat" the longer mag in Velocity and do it with "LESS" powder. This is especially true from the 130 gr up to and including the 180 gr bullets. The WSM velocity is actually MUCH better. From 190 to 220 gr the 300 Win mag has a slight edge but, not by even 50 to 75 FPS.

Now with that being said lets add the fact that the WSM is a more effecient cartridge (shoots the same velocity or faster with LESS powder) plus it does not have a belt which is VERY desireable, especially with the accuracy minded Longrange target and hunting folks.

I was surprised also when I read it as I felt the same as you and made mention that the 300 WSM could not do what the 300 Win mag would do a lot better. I was wrong in that statement after reading the testing results.

The 300 WSM seems to be a very nice target and hunting round that I think will be around a long time. I believe they (Winchester) used the principle of the PPC in the development of the 300 WSM. The PPC is the Most efficient round for it's bore diameter, ever created.

Boyd has done well with his 300 WSM in the 1000 yard light gun class and with 30" barrels, that cartridge would certainly make a fine longrange hunting rifle. You could run that bullet another 150 to 210 FPS with the 30" barrel instead of the 24" it was tested with at Hodgdons.

As we speak, I have a 30" Pac-Nor barrel being made to give it a try. I'll let you and/or the forum know how it does. It will be 6 weeks before I have the barrel in hand.

As you may or may not know, Longrange hunters and target shooters "try" many chamberings before they decide on a good LR rifle to use. They don't take anothers word for it---good or bad.
We chamber it and see what it will do for us then we can accuratly tell people what it will do or not do..

Darryl

I see much debate has taken place in my absense. Good to see Darryl and Boyd have joined the debate. I know these shooters have used the MatchKing with excellent results. I agree that every hunter has his or her prefered tactics that they utilize when they hunt. But it does get under my skin when when short range hunters say it is not ethical to hunt at long range. I would bet that Darryl, Boyd, RuffHewn and others have a far better chance of connecting on the first shot at 700+ yards than most average hunters would at 400 yards. They shot year round, at long range, they have the equipment and damn sure have the knowledge and experience to use that equipment to maximum effect. And they darn sure don't have to shoot a magazine full of ammo to get it done either.

As far as the MatchKing goes, GEZZZZZ how can anyone not comprehend that if you hit a game animal in the boiler room with 190 grain bullet started at 2900 fps+, something very terminal is going to happen to that game animal and darn quick.

Have a great weekend, it is down the loading bench for me as well. I have a 60 shot aggregate 1K match to shoot to tomorrow. Gotta get ammo loaded and on the road.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

[ 07-19-2003, 00:40: Message edited by: RiverRat ]

Hello Riverrat

Nice to see you again and hope the 60 shot 1K is in your favor.
Boyd and I have one at Williamsport this weekend.
Good luck to you and keep them in the black.

Brad

If you tested or owned the two 300 WSM in FACTORY rifles then there could be quite a difference between the two calibers if they were custome jobs. Many times a factory rifle has the WRONG twist for the bullets that are being tested.

As per accuracy, a cartridge headspaced on the shoulder rather then the belt is much more accurate day in day out. This is being proven more and more at every 1000 yard match.
When a gunsmith changes the shoulder angle to say 35 degrees and headspaces on the shoulder (can be done even with a belted case) then this is advantageous. A cartridge such as a Weatherby with the Venturi shoulder is usually changed to a 35 Degree plus blown out a bit more and some of these are the 30 Goodling, the 308 Baer, and others.

The reloading manual I was refering to was the "Hodgdon Annual Manual" with 5000 plus loads.

I will let you know how they compare as I will have the custom 300 WSM and I also have a custom 300 Win mag with the same length barrel (30").

Take care
Darryl