The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Oh gag! Ruger Hawkeye African in 450 Bushmaster.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Oh gag! Ruger Hawkeye African in 450 Bushmaster. | Login/Join |
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It’s on Ruger’s website. Just can’t believe it. Would have preferred an ‘06 or 8x57. 450 Bushmaster? Really? Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | ||
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It well be a pleasant rifle to shoot. | |||
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Thanks for posting CM! Dang! I too was really hoping for a 30-06. Hey Ruger. Surely you could sell many more 30-06s than 450 Bushmasters. What gives? May I respectfully suggest/request the next one be the good ‘ole 30-06 Springfield? I’ll buy two of them, just like I have with the 275 Rigby, 6.5x55 Swede, 9.3x62 Mauser, 35 Whelen, and .223 Rem. | |||
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I agree. Can’t blame them, marketing wise, the young guns seem to like these newer calibers. I’d like to see the 8x57. Shoot Safe, Mike NRA Endowment Member | |||
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A 458 win would be nice too | |||
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I have to say, some of Rugers marketing baffles me. But I'm not the one behind the desk so who knows? | |||
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You guys are not seeing the upsurge of lower intensity, straight walled, low recoil, cartridges, intended for DEER, at close range. Mainly in the Midwest and South; you don't need anything more. I built 8 of them two years ago for local deer and hog hunters; for which the 450 is perfect. As for a 30-06; there are plenty of them out there. But the 450 Bush, and now the 350 Legend, is the most popular cartridge I see nowadays, usually on AR platforms. Young shooters, and many old ones, can't handle any recoil, and only need to shoot 75 yards and hit a pumpkin to kill a deer. You guys from Colorado can't fathom something like that. So, it is a genius marketing strategy; after all, they exist for only one reason; to sell more rifles. And this is where the market niche is now. Oh, 8x57? They might sell two of them. | |||
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They would sell out of 8x57s. Like they sold out of 35 Whelen and every other limited run African. I agree on your observations about the 459 Bushmaster. | |||
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You are right; they would sell out of 8mms to collectors; only two of them would actually get fired. | |||
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It should have been designed with a .458 bullet instead of a .451 pistol bullet. It doesn't feed well in an AR-15 magazine either. The interior of the magazine is narrower at the front than the back, so the rounds single stack on top of each other at the front, but scissor tail and try and double stack at the back. That results in the column getting taller and taller at the front as more rounds are loaded. The back end sinks and the nose points skyward. Couple that with a diameter and taper that is too narrow for the mag lips, and the rounds try and squirt through as more rounds are loaded. It's a poorly designed round for use in an AR-15 magazine. Tony Bottom pic, factory 450 mags from Bushmaster with 1 round, 5 rounds, and 10 rounds loaded.   | |||
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Load it with 300-325 spitzers from Hawk and Northern Precision, seated out where they should be in my Ruger American, or a 77 now. It kills deer and bear as well as any of the 2 dozen other rounds I have used on them. | |||
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You need to use MagPul plastic mags; they feed perfectly because the lips seem to be different from the aluminum mags. You can bend those feed lips you know....pliers. So they won't stovepipe like in your picture. That is not the fault of the round. I do not load ten rounds; who needs ten shots at a deer, or 30 round mags? But I build them on Mauser actions and the 1891 is the best and smoothest feeding. Yes it should have been a .458, and the 35 Legend should be a .358 but they didn't ask me. But yes, in spite of what we might want, they do work and are very popular here. For the reasons I outlined above; these young guys don't know what traditional rifles and cartridges are. But Back40 has killed many 650 pound bears with the 450 so it must be ok for some type of hunting. For the guys out west; ignore all this. You have no need for it. | |||
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Straight wall legal/ bottleneck not in some states. Illinois? Lotsa lead in those new calibers. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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I get what you’re saying about deer/hog hunting and the 450 Bushmaster. And, being from CO myself, you’re right, our shots come a little longer than back east I suppose, especially my pronghorn hunts in CO & WY. And you’re also right, I’m older (73), so I am not in tune with the younger generation of hunters and their arms. I own over 150 rifles and not one is an AR style rifle. All bolt actions and single shots. However, what I don’t get, is an AR cartridge on an African safari bolt action rifle. ARs (autos) are not allowed in Africa hunting. I don’t know of anyone in my circle of fellow African hunters, who want a bolt action safari rifle in this round. I have friends who love this round in their ARs, but I do not see it as an African round for a nice safari rifle, with all the bells & whistles of black fore end tip, barrel band swivel ring, open sights, etc. The Ruger African rifle is just that, a rifle meant to be taken on safari. The 450 Bushmaster would not be in the top 20 of my caliber choices for an African hunt. I’m not saying it won’t kill, but there are much better choices in my mind. I was hoping for the 30-06. This round is everywhere in Africa if your ammo is lost with the airlines, like mine was on my last safari to Zambia. I went to Africa, and my rifle & ammo went to Europe. Luckily, it showed up on the 4th day of my safari. Again, I’m not saying the 450 Bushmaster is not a good round. I simply see it as a great deer/hog round for use in America in an AR auto, but not an African round, for this African safari rifle. YMMV | |||
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No one said the 450 Bush is in any way an African cartridge; Ruger just put that name on the rifle. It's the rifle's name; not the cartridge's. Ruger is in business to sell rifles, and names of them, put there by marketing people, do tend to sell consumer items. And, the 450 Bushmaster is not specifically or exclusively an AR only round; there are plenty of bolt actions made in this caliber, and I literally built 8 of them on Mauser Bolt actions, 91 and 98 models, and got an order for one yesterday. Back 40 has several bolt action 450s and kills bears with them every fall. They are pests where he lives. 500 pound pests. Don't overthink it; it is what it is and obviously, not for African Big 5. I do not use it in ARs, nor do any of my friends, (being older than the average) just bolt actions, as do many people here. The ones under 35 years old do tend to use black plastic ones. It is for deer and hogs, as I said. What does YMMY mean? Yummy? | |||
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YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary I'm older than you Tom but even I know the meaning   iHunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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You got me there.... | |||
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With the right 300gr 452 bullet and a velocity of around 2000fps. There is not much, one could not kill with it. Right up there with the famed 45-70 only better SD. | |||
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I don't know what the percentage is, but a huge portion of the firearms purchased in the US don't even get fired, or if they do it's only once or twice, then they are shoved in the closet or under the bed. I would imagine that about 1 to 2% or less of Ruger African's ever make it to Africa. Sporting Arms manufactures plan their production runs very carefully to undersell demand and have zero units left unsold. They know exactly what their break-even costs are and profit percentages intended and build accordingly. I suspect the use of .451 vs .458 comes down to the velocities generated by the cartridge and the expansion velocities of projectiles themselves. Wouldn't make sense to have a cartridge that every bullet performed like a solid. I too would have preferred to see one in a traditional bolt action cartridge, I'm still mad at myself for not grabbing one in .223 for my annual safari behind the house that usually results in a 60-70 lbs doe. | |||
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Just looked on Rugers website site. Three models, two barrel lengths and one in stainless steel. I think its a great idea. Would rather carry one instead of a AR base rifle for hunting. | |||
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I was going to say that I have rifles named, Alaskan, African, Safari, Wyoming, Varminter; all places that I will never go or do. The name on the rifle means Nothing; what you do with them, is up to the imagination of the owner. It's just marketing. | |||
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I would think a Hawkeye "African" in 450 BM makes as much sense as one in .223??? | |||
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I gotta’ admit that’s pretty funny when you hear it and think about it! | |||
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On the other hand, I AM taking my Ruger African .223 next year to Namibia, to hunt very small animals; Dik Dik, Duiker, Klipspringer, Genet & Caracal. But if I needed a 45 caliber rifle for DG animals, it would be my 458 Lott. I see many calibers I’d much prefer (375 H&H, 404 Jeffery, both of which I have taken large PG and DG animals in Africa), over a 450 BM. But as they say, different strokes for different folks! I just wonder how many of these rifles Ruger will sell, over a 30-06 African? Am I that old and out of touch? Be kind!! | |||
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The collector people will buy a bunch. So will straight wall case, hunting areas. After that? I have a good friend in Namibia. His grandson shot on their farm, heartebeast, kudu, warthog and cow eland with a CZ .223 with 64 grn winchester ammo. All he used until he earned enough money for his own rifle. | |||
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Ha! Good on him. Good Lord, those are some BIG animals for a .223, but a stout bullet in the right place can do wonders. I would prefer a bit larger bullet for those animals, and some country’s laws would demand it for us visitors, but you can’t argue with success! | |||
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I am surprised a .223 is even allowed in Africa for hunting anything. And all this is over a Model Name, which means nothing. You guys probably choose or reject cars based on what they are called rather than their performance and your needs. | |||
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Or like many women the first thing they ask is what color is it. | |||
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What I can’t figure out is why they don’t make it in a brass framed, plastic stocked, lever action with QD sling swivels, no sights and a Picatinny rail on top? They could call it the Cross-eye Mexican. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Henry might have what your looking for. | |||
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The idea of the African 223 was as a rifle that matched the big kickers for shooting, practice while being well suited for the small antelope. It had an African application. Now, a 450 Bushmaster will make a great pig rifle, and medium antelope Zimbabwean brush rifle. | |||
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450 Bushmaster, no need for it, 06, 8x57,7x57 and a host of other caliber will do what it will do and better. Dollars to donuts its a magnificent failure! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I think this is a really stupid, even offense, combination of rifle and cartridge. The 450 BM is insipid. I know why it exists. That's stupid too. I know what others think and I don't care. Some things just shouldn't be done. In addition, Ruger doesn't seem to give a damn if its rifles feed properly. If a rifle can't feed rounds as it should, I don't want it no matter what caliber it is. | |||
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I have a very (not sure of the right adjective) story that might clear up some of Ruger's perspective on it's customers. The year was ~2006 and I was down in Argentina on a red stag hunt. Ruger Outdoors (or whatever their TV show was called) was filming a red stag hunt with the same outfitter. There was a former Ruger executive named Ted (can't remember the last name) who happen to be a current executive at Sig who was one of the hunters for the filmed show. We were sitting at dinner chatting about this and that on the first night and Ted brought up his time at Ruger and the Ruger RSM. I hadn't said much of anything beyond just normal social graces up to this point when I said: "You know what I always thought would be neat configuration for that rifle" and before I could finish he interjected and said: "Oh great, another customer trying to tell us what products the marketplace wants." I just smiled and said "Well, that is certainly an interesting perspective given US corporations spend billions of dollars a year on marketing research for product development." He glared, got up and went to the wet bar and replenished his drink. Needless to say, we didn't talk much for the rest of the trip. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I am curious what your suggestion was going to be. The reason Ruger guided by Bill worked/got over was he did not chase market trends. He built rifles and handguns he liked to a standard and process that could be produced for the U.S. Market. Bill Ruger was quoted, “An honest rifle for 2 weeks pay.” Had Bill Ruger chased what was market trendy Ruger would not exist as a manufacturer of firearms. Sadly, about 2006 they lost that. I remember when that took to S off the logos. I knew the new, at the time, cooperate structure had no idea what Ruger was. This is just more of the same. | |||
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I couldn't even tell you what I was thinking at the time, but probably some classic cartridge. The point o the story is the Ruger Execs comment was dismissive even before I finished my sentence. I would call it pretty arrogant; i.e., I have no need to ever listen to a customer. I am never surprised by poor decisions made by companies. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have only shot the Bushmaster in the AR platform, out of cheap Bear Creek right-side charging uppers. It ran great -- better than the .458 SOCOM in my limited experience, but using five-round magazines in both instances. And the damned thing was very accurate. I just can't seem to hold on to an AR for long; can't bond with them. The guys I spoke with in west central Texas seemed quite happy with the rigs for hogs and whitetail -- even old shooters like me.  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I have a 450 in a blot action and with 300 grain reloads it is a true thumper. I wouldn't shoot my reloads out of an AR though. Although plenty safe in my rifle would probably rattle a semiautomatic. If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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