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Open the debate.... My new 308 shoots sub MOA groups with 168 grain Matchkings at 100 yards. Federal Fusion 150s shoot right at MOA. I like the thought of the heavier bullet but torn as they are match bullets not made with hunting in mind. Thoughts or have you used match bullets? If you have used them in hunting, what game and up to what size species? Would you trust on anything larger than say a whitetail? Any input appreciated. DRSS Sabatti 450\400 NE Merkel 140-2 500 NE | ||
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This debate usually generates more heat than light but the simple question is why? Why not use a bullet that is designed to hold together, expand in a controlled manner, and kill stuff. And if you can't kill something with a bullet that will shoot into an inch, you need to practice field position shooting more. And the federal fusion isn't magic, there are a whole bunch of hunting bullets made in 165-180 weight. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Even Sierra will tell you not to use their Matchkings for hunting. I have killed 2 pigs, a coyote and a turkey with 168gr Matchkings as an experiment. I do not recommend using them for hunting. A Sierra 165 HPBT Gameking, their 165 gr Spitzer Gameking, or a 165 Nolser Ballistic Tip should be just as accurate and be a much better hunting bullet. In fact I have never found the Nosler Partition not to be plenty accurate for hunting, even at long range, and it is a great bullet as well. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Matchkings are not hunting bullets!! Is this the right thread? hahaha. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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...if we could turn back the clock...to that classic thread..and make some of those gray hairs dissapear  | |||
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There's a 148 plus page thread here some place about using match kings for hunting. Personally I find they kill rather well. Others well disagree the last elk I killed and a dozen or so deer I shot with them are all dead little hole in 2 to 3 inch hole going out. | |||
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try 165/168 nosler btips, interbonds, accubonds, or bergers Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I think what bullet you use should be YOUR choice!!!! The shooting public has been baffled with bullsh** and blinded by brilliance for so long no one can think for themselves. If you have venison on the table NO MATTER WHAT BULLET YOU USED, then the bullet WORKED...it doesn't matter if it was a MK or a power point, Cor-lokt, hot-cor, SP or some fancy premium bullet you paid 5 bucks each for. Jeez...when will this garbage about the MK end??? | |||
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OOPS You did touch a highly debated subject On a thread we all thought was longgggg gone. No harm but I wouldn't want to go out with them myself.... FMJ ammo might be more reliable. Just saying that they might explode or the tip may close altogether and who wants that sort of predictably??? Cal30 If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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Mebbe you missed the part where the OP asked for opinions? Dude, if you wanna use MK's, HP's, FMJ's or TSX's loaded backwards we're not trying to stop you. As you insist, it's your choice. I wouldn't. I like Northforks, Noslers and TSX's. I can think of no advantage any target bullet provides in the field over my preferences. | |||
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I've shot lots of whitetails with Sierra MKs in lots of different calibers. 22 cal 77 gr up to 338 250 gr. Had perfect results but I also had perfect shots. I have had poorer results with Hornady SSTs and Nosler Accubonds. I hate those two bullets. Now the MKs do a great job on light game on broadside shots to the vitals. This is not a shoot them anywhere and have the bullet exit type of bullet. For whitetail size game I think too many people use too heavily constructed bullets that simply drill through without doing much damage. The MKs penetrate completely with most calibers and do a lot of damage inside. | |||
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..... my .30/06 Sprg. and 300 Weatherby shoot sub-moa groups with 165 gr. Nosler Partitions, 168 gr. Barnes TTSX's and 170 gr. Privi Partizan Grom bullets ..... why not develop a similar load for your 308 Winchester with the appropriate hunting bullet? Yeah, the Keppeler .222 Remington Target rifle will shoot pretty much 5 of any 50 gr. .224" bullet into less than 1/2" but it'll put 5 Berger 50 gr. HP Flat Base's into one enlarged .224" hole. That's what target bullets are all about; for precision and not particularly terminal performance. With pretty much any reasonably set-up 308 Winchester hunting rifle, a known accurate load of VVN-140 and 168 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips you ought to able to make it put 5 into right @ 1/2 if you do your part. Now that's a hunting load. Cheers, Number 10 | |||
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My experience with the Hornady SST's is that they tend to be a bit soft. I don't see a whole lot of use for boat tails either for normal hunting where you rarely are shooting out past 300-350 and most shots are a lot closer than that. I don't like total core separation and it is not uncommon with non-bonded cup and core bullets and boat tails tend to be even more prone to it. I have seen Hornady SST and Interlocks do this quite frequently, especially at the higher impact velocities when a fairly close shot is presented. If I was going to go that light in a .338 I would probably go to a TSX or Nosler E-tip and it is pretty hard to beat the old 210 grain Nosler Partition. That is what I have been loading for my wife for 20 years in her .338 WM and she has killed everything from coyotes to moose and big bears with it. Always mushrooms nicely, even on deer, and always penetrates……… you might lose the front lead core but it matters not as you still have sufficient weight. In more recent years I have been using the Accubond a lot and seen it used a lot in a pile of different calibers and cartridges. It performs very well on thin skinned game and is usually very accurate. I find I am using it more and more as the years go by. Overall I think it is hard to beat the better 225 grain bullets in the .338 WM as a bullet that will pretty much cover all bases, yet provide decent velocity/trajectory. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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I wasn't looking to reload at this point in time and was going to just buy a few boxes of off the shelf. I had gotten a good deal on the MKs and that's why. I was more concerned what people actually using them in a hunting application have seen. In cases of 'hunting' bullets, I've had corelokts act in various ways. They have framented severly in some instances off ribs, others have looked just slightly deformed from the original after contacting and riding along the spine for 6" +. Skyline - .308 not a .338 DRSS Sabatti 450\400 NE Merkel 140-2 500 NE | |||
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Years ago we went to South Africa for plains game hunt. I had my 30/404 which I built purposely for this kind of safari. I loaded several bullets, Sierra MKs, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and others. All 180 grains. The idea was to try the Match Kings, and if they failed, use some of the others. I used them to shoot all sorts of animals, including zebra and wildebeest. The wildebeest was over 400 yards away, and a nyala was less than 15 yards. They all were killed with a single shot. The velocity was 3430-3480 fps depending on the make of the bullet. | |||
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No, DUDE...I didn't miss that part and what was it I gave...MY OPINION... and isn't that just what YOU gave...YOUR OPINION. I don't use MK's on game basically because my 338-06 just can't really use the accuracy/drop potential of the MK...the regular ol' 225 SP does it's job perfectly...but I know several that do in various large cased 338 cal super accurate, shoot-across-the-canyon Elk rigs using the 338 MK. I haven't heard of any loosing their animals. I HAVE shot the he** out of many sage rats out to about 300 yds using my 338-06 and MK's...does that count??? Leaves the bullet in almost as good a shape as a new one.  But I guarantee I use them in my 338 Lapua along with several CNC bullets from various makers...if I still hunted large game and couldn't find a more accurate "hunting" bullet I wouldn't stand on convention or the usual rhetoric to stop me from using them. NOT withstanding the fact that for certain game the MK might NOT be the best choice and due considerations needs to be applied. Isn't THAT what all this rigmarole about...OPINION AND CHOICE. | |||
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I am not a shill for Core Lokt bullets but I have never sent one after a beast that it didn't fetch it. Thank goodness, I've never experienced a single failure much less the multiple disasters that some report. As I gained experience in reloading, I went up the price ladder until I gained enough experience to realize that .1" inch gain in accuracy just doesn't compute in the game fields. Nor is price a guarantee of performance. Now, for hunting, I load either core lokts or partitions, whichever gives me the best accuracy, 'cause I know they'll give me the performance I need. Without having to worry about "gee, is the animal standing just right? Am I gonna have to pass a ranging shoot 'cause I'm using an inadequate bullet?" Granted, hitting an animal with a 150-200gr hunk of lead, traveling 2500fps is usually gonna do for it. In fact, it may be magic as one never reads about any failures. DRT everytime.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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hunteratheart Since you do not now reload... Try the Winchester 168gr Ballistic Silvertip ammo. In many rifles it shoots as goos if not better than Federal 168 gr Match. And thsat is saying something as 168 Federal Match is VERY accurate ammo, in most any 308. I have killed several deer and dozens of wild pigs, including some 250 to 285 pounders with excellent results. Also the Federal factory ammo with the 165 gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws [the older bearclaws, not the newer tipped ones, I have not shot them yet], and the 150gr Barnes X bullets and the 180 Barnes MRX have all proven very accurte in several different 308's I have shot them in. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I've shot a few deer with 155 Sierras in my Anschutz sporter. Range wasn't very long and they went down like a deer shot with a .308. For long range hunting they are a bit hard if anything. Are you really asking about that SMKs suitability for long range hunting in a .308? In that case there's plenty of more suitable bullets.If you are talking about more typical hunting ranges they will work, but there is no advantages. We've used a ton of 300 grain .338 SMKs for long range hunting in the Edges and Lapuas. Sierra doesn't recommend SMKs for hunting. If I had military contracts for the same bullets I'd take the same position. | |||
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Decided with the feedback on match bullets, just to break down and start reloading my own for this. I'll avoid the match ones but start in the 165 gr hunting bullets. Should be sufficient for all around use (deer, antelope, elk). Thanks DRSS Sabatti 450\400 NE Merkel 140-2 500 NE | |||
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Good choice! | |||
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I can recommend some 165 gr hunting bullets for your 308. One of my favorites, I have been using it since @1975 is the Sierra 165 gr HPBT Gameking. I have killed a lot of deer, pigs and antelope with it. In fact just just this last deer season I killed 2 deer and 3 pigs with it. I have also used the Nosler 165 gr Ballistic Tip, and when hunting in heavy brush or if I was going to hunt elk with a 308 I would use the 165gr Nolser Partition. I use all 3 of these bullets over the same powder charge 39.5gr of IMR 3031. This is not a hot load, but I have killed antelope with it at over 550 yards. It has been very accurate in every 308/7.62 rifle I have shot it in. It has worked so good that I have never seen any reason to change it. It is my go to hunting reload for any 308 I have ever used. It shoots great with the Sierra 168gr Matchking as well, but I do not hunt with them after my experiment. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I use FMJ's for gargoyles and Terminators, work better than the expanding bullets and easier to get. "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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Shooting sub MOA off a nice 500 lb concrete bench, with 40 pounds of sandbags? I believe that is the most likely shooting technique you are using. How about offhand, do you get sub MOA offhand?, do you get sub MOA away from the bench prone, sitting, or even using those cross sticks/tripods that seem to be a popular television accessory?. If your're "not on concrete bench" hold is minute of feet, than the wonderful accuracy of SMK bullets won’t mean much. Personally I am comfortable with 2 MOA hunting bullets because, and I have done this, 2 MOA unsupported is actually pretty good. Three MOA is OK with a lever action. Match bullets are meant for punching holes in paper. The better hunting bullets are actually outstandingly accurate, and I would recommend using bullets that won’t blow up on a shoulder. | |||
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SlamFire I do not disagree with the thoughts/concept of your of your post, [in fact I agree with it], so what I am about to say is not ment as a response to your post. Actually, even when developing loads off of "the bench", I have NOT found, there to be that much of a difference, IF ANY AT ALL, between the accuracy of, Sierra Matchkings, vs. Sierra Hunting bullets, Nosler Ballistic Tips, and yes, EVEN Nosler Partitions. Especially out of hunting rifles. When hunting, it is the bullet, THAT DOES ALL THE WORK. Yes, a certain amount of accuracy is necessary, but even perfect placement with a bullet that fails, can lead to the loss of the animal... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Also I have found that these newer Premium bullets like the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, North Fork, Swift A Frame and the Barnes X bullets to be EXTREMELY accurate in many barrels. Especially quality barrels. Cheaper high production barrels with tight and loose spots ,and barrels that get bigger internally toward the muzzle, tend not to shoot solid based bullets very well. IF you have a barrel that does not shoot any of the so called "super premium" bullets well, try the Nosler Partitions.... Or get a rifle with a better barrel... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I agree. And I choose to use hunting bulllets for hunting. What I wonder about this issue is why would anyone want to use Matchkings for hunting? Just to prove a point? Do whatever flips your pancake. I really dont care. Me, I'll stick with what has been woking for me for decades. Happy hunting.  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Like it was said earlier, try the 165 grain hunting bullets. My 308 loved the old Hornady 165 grain BTSPs so much that I bought 1,000 of them in 1981 and I still have some left. Saying that, I do use the 142 SMKs for long range predator and varmint hunting in my 6.5x284 but I'm only concerned about delivering a bullet into a tiny target and putting a hole in it. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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What for load were you using? I picked up some of the same bullets. Powder recommendations vary quite a bit. DRSS Sabatti 450\400 NE Merkel 140-2 500 NE | |||
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stick to shooting paper, or do like the US Military does, and just shoot them at other human beings... | |||
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good, consistent expansion and penetration are not criteria for the military. Wounding is the preferred result. | |||
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I use 46 grains of IMR4064 for that bullet. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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As a former "caretaker" of a .308 Police sniper rifle, I had many, many occasions to use the Federal Gold Medal 168gr. Match hollow points on Whitetail deer. Snipers were encouraged to "practice" with their weapons and were charged with maintaining proficiency outside the normal training regiment. A detailed log book was mandatory, as well as proper maintenance and upkeep. For me this included taking the weapon into the woods during deer season. In no way am I qualified to argue the physical merits of this round, or even the ballistics capability of the projectile, as I must leave that up to the "experts". While there is no doubt better performing bullets out there for hunting, I had Zero problems with this bullet on many, many Mid-Atlantic Whitetail deer. Some of these were Mountain bucks, who although not in the class of a Canadian Giant Whitetail, were respectable in size; often hovering around the 200lb mark. The bullet consistently dispatched these animals without falter. As has been said a trillion times by a zillion hunters......Not necessarily what round/caliber, but Where you engage your target. Once again my experience.....Put the bullet into the vitals.....Sharpen your knife! In no way am I saying these rounds would be my chosen round for hunting, I am merely reciting my experience with them in a hunting scenario. Just Sayin'. Troopers Ride Alone. | |||
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EVERY THING I look at shows this is beyond a max load. My one book shows max @ 44.9 gr for the 150s! Is this a compressed load and where did you pull the data? DRSS Sabatti 450\400 NE Merkel 140-2 500 NE | |||
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Yes, it's a compressed load but I use compressed loads all the time. It's near max but not over and is safe in my gun. The load is on the Hodgdon website in their Reloading Data Center: Bullet Weight 165 GR. HDY SP Maximum Loads - Powder -IMR 4064, Grs. 46.3C, Vel. 2,767(ft/s), Pressure 59,700 PSI I used 44 grains of IMR4064 for years but stepped up to 46 a couple of years ago as the throat wore out in my 308 and it lost too much velocity. I'm seating the bullets as long as possible and still fit my magazine and still have over .125" of jump to the lands. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Although the Match King bullet isn't illegal for hunting, Sierra recommends not using them because of unreliable results on game. I have used them for hunting with mixed results when hitting bone or not. I prefer Barnes or Partition or plain jane Hornady for filling the freezer. In the end, it's not illegal, so use what works for you. Free speech has been executed on the altar of political correctness. | |||
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303carbine is correct Since Sierra does not recommend using their Match Kings for hunting... AND THEY MAKE THEM, what is not to understand??? Here is a "hint". Their hunting bullets have a most excellent reputation for accuracy, and good performance on game... WHY, would anyone use a bullet, for hunting, that the MAKER states, is NOT SUITABLE for that purpose??? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I was around back yonder when bullet failures were more common and during WW2 when everything was rationed or unobtainable we used military ball ammo in our Spingfields to hunt deer,elk or whatever, as it was all you could get and even that was on the black market! They killed deer well enough but we did have some tracking jobs to deal with, they killed elk less well, but we got by...We sometimes ground the tips so they would expand, and sometimes they did and sometimes not, that wasn't an improvement contrary to popular belief. Later on we used WW open point expanding bullets and Rem bronze points, they killed like lightening most of the time with some rare failures now and then, usually on contact with heavy bone..Silvertips worked well then they kept changing them and it was a crap shoot...The old Rem. corelokt worked as well as any bullet including todays premiums. and that is where most settled, they used Rem Corelokts or Peters (same bullet) and all was well from that day on. The point of all this is these target bullets will kill very well "most of the time" but will fail on rare ocassion, same with all bullets not ment for use on big game..even a failed bullet in the heart/lung area kills, and most of the time very quickly as it explodes inside and animal, sometimes they kill well because they tumble, but on ocassion they take off in weird directions or even explode on the outside skin or come apart on bone... Therein is your answer, when they work they work very well indeed, but when they fail the fail miserably..I sure would keep my shots in the rib cage if I was using them. I recall a target hollow point that exploded on a deers head, it was grusome, and we had to follow him up and stick another one in his ribs as he ran into trees, stumbled around slinging his head. I think I'll keep using bullets designed for big game hunting on the big game I shoot..Its cheap insurance, and they sure do work good these days, seldom even hear of a real bullet failure, just ocassional bad shooting that someone blamed on the bullet or caliber. I have found the Hornadys , Sierra, Speer, hunting bullets all good deer bullets these days in standard non magnum calibers..For elk I'll take a premium bullet every time. For magnums I'll take a premium bullet. Just plain old common since should prevail on this subject IMO.... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I love the fact that, just in case their customers can't read, they put a picture of a paper target on the MKs and a game animal on the GKs, but people still argue the point. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Lotsa guys running 162 Amax outta 7's, lotsa dead stuff... | |||
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