Sorry guys, new to this forum, I posted this in the wrong section earlier.

I have started to work up a 338 Win load with the 300 gr Woodleigh sp for a trip to Mozambique. Trouble is the only load for my remaining stock of Win 785 I could find was Winchester's own maximum of 68.6 grains. No minumum was given so I've loaded three rounds at 62 gr and three at 63 gr. The rifle is at the smith's having open sights added so I made the overall length the same as I did with the similar-shaped 250 gr Woodleighs - about 3.33 inches - meaning the new bullet intrudes well into the case.

Someone on another forum said there should not be more than 5% space in the case with Win 785 and, despite the intruding bullet, I can't be sure there is not.

Have I started too low?

Thanks if you can help
- Paul

The 300 grain bullet in 338 is a LONG bullet . I don,t know about 785 powder ......I used to use IMR 7828 with the 300 gr Barnes Originals but I had to compress it alot ..I had alot of shot to shot variation but still averaged 2500 fps .. Probably not alot of help , but 300 gr. bullets use up alot of the 338 win case ..

Thanks gumboot. I appreciate your responding esp. since 180 others didn't get around to it. Your velocities would impress Elmer Keith. I'm not fussed about how high I go as long as the load is safe in the African heat and has a point of impact close to the 250gr Noslers and Woodleighs I'm taking. The main reason I got 300 grainers was because of the mopane bush and any chance I might run into something big when not carrying my buffalo rifle. Woodleigh 338 solids seem a bit hard to find here at the moment but at least the softpoints would be better on sable and kudu.

I don't suppose you can think of a reloading manual that might help me with this question?

Cheers
- Paul

Sambarman,
I would use starting loads and work up looking for pressure signs: hard extraction, cratered primer pockets, etc. I just returned from RSA and used 250gr Nosler Partition handloads. I had a couple of shots through the mopane, but if you wait a second or two the animal usually moves to give you a clear shot.

Thanks Pben,
my problem is I don't know what the starting load is. In smaller cases it's often four grains less than max but some say 10%, which would be seven grains here. Hopefully someone has used 785 with 300 grainers and can give me a clue.

My opinion is that you ought to rethink your original premise of why you want to use 300 gr bullets with your 338 WM. Your 250gr bullets are already at the high end of what the 338 WM was designed to use. Besides that, I doubt whether a 300 gr bullet will be more effective than the 250s you already have. I've only been to Africa once, but I know that the less unnecessary types of ammunition you have, the better. I think you should work on your 250s and rely upon those for your trip.

I have shot the 338wm for 20years,if a250gr.bullet placed in the Heart/lung area doesnt kill it,a 300gr. will not eihter,you need a bigger gun/bullet like a 458winmag.?

I beleave that the 458 Lott would kill it using
either sn or solid.

Thanks guys,
Winchester made 300 grain bullets for the .338 from way back, probably in deference to the standard 333 Jeffery ammo of the same weight. Elmer Keith favoured the big slugs in close cover, too.

I needed some extra cartridges and had been intending to get some 300 grainers for several years to try on our sambar stags in heavy bush. Being a parsimonious type, as you'd notice from my wanting to use up the 785, I don't feel like discarding them now.

Hopefully, my little .450/.400 will manage the toughs jobs, anyway.

I checkd a Winchester loading pamplet from 1975.
It shows 68.5 as a max load and also says to only use the load as shown.
The load shown is all WW components. It shows
2375 fps at 50,500 C.U.P.
Terry

That's a bit scary, Terry. Your figures tally with those I wrote down many years ago, though I'd forgotten where I found them.

I have noticed some tables based on set velocity columns certainly give limited options with 785, but to nominate one powder weight only reminds me of loading shotshells.

Thanks for your help
- Paul

The loading data in that booklet shows that 785 should only be used as shown in all the calibers.
The Speer #10 manual lists 785 with their 275 gr. bullet. Starting 68 gr. max 72 gr. WW cases and CCI 250 primers.
I used 785 for a while and always worked up from 5 to 10% below and never had any problems.
Ken Waters in Pet Loads used 785 with 300 gr WW and went to 70 Gr. which he called Max with a 2414 fps. used WW 120 primers.

TJAY pretty much nailed the direction I was going. It just took me longer to get my hands on my Pet Loads copy. The only thing I can think to add to TJAY's information is the COL at 3.33" for that load.

Energy for that load at the given velocity comes to 3881 ft-lbs as per Load From A Disk.

If you have another powder I can run QuickLOAD for you. WW 785 is not in my QuickLOAD powder files.

Thanks TJAY and webfeet,
Now we're getting somewhere! If Waters thinks the max is 70 grains, maybe I should start no lower than four grains down from Winchester's 68.5.

I've got Winchester WLR primers 'for standard or magnum rifle loads'. Are they similar to WW 120?

Glad to hear the cartridge's overall length can be 3.33". I think my Sako has a shortish throat, despite its big magazine, and may not allow anything much longer. On the other hand, I wonder how far you could seat a bullet back into the case before pressure on the sides started to impede its moving forward.

Further thoughts appreciated

- Paul

PS: webfeet, if you don't mind, I might be able to find some ADI powder locally (AR2209, 2213 or 2214) if you could get a QuickLOAD suggestion on where to start with the Woodleigh 300 gr. Maximums are more of academic interest to me.

Thanks if you can
- Paul

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks guys,
Winchester made 300 grain bullets for the .338 from way back, probably in deference to the standard 333 Jeffery ammo of the same weight. Elmer Keith favoured the big slugs in close cover, too.

I've posted it before - I've used these Old 300gr Winchesters with great success. approx.2500ft/s with almost 1/2" groups @ 100y. worked very well on Impala & Kudu, I've started to load the 250 Woodleigh PP now!

I would venture to say that the WLR primers you have are equivalent to the WW 120 Waters was talking about. I don't know that for a fact but you might be able to Google it up. I would feel comfortable substituting WLR into these loads.

Whatever the case is with the amount and burning speed of the powder we are talking about you are going to want a magnum primer and the WLR you have is what you want unless you have Federal 215s.

As far as your loads go, I gave you three for each powder you gave me. I picked the low 40k psi mark and >=90% case capacity as starting points. For reference the .338 Win Mag has a maximum pressure of 62.3k psi. The max loads I gave are roughly 85% of that maximum pressure, and represent safe working limits for the .338 Win Mag.

This is all from QuickLOAD though and it is by no means perfect. You need to start low and work your way up, but you knew that already didn't you.

ADI AR 2209 59.0 grains 2215 fps @ 43.5k psi
ADI AR 2209 61.0 grains 2280 fps @ 48k psi
ADI AR 2209 63.0 grains 2375 fps @ 54k psi

ADI AR 2213 62.0 grains 2230 fps @ 42.7k psi
ADI AR 2213 64.0 grains 2300 fps @ 47k psi
ADI AR 2213 66.5 grains 2400 fps @ 53k psi

ADI AP 2214 67 grains at 2240 fps @ 43k psi
ADI AP 2214 69 grains at 2315fps @ 47.4 psi
ADI AP 2214 71.5 grains at 2400 fps @ 53.8 psi (compressed load @ 103% capacity)

This is all with the Woodleigh 300 SP bullet (not the FMJ bullet) at 3.33" COL. The velocities given are for a 24" barrel.

Thanks webfeet and Johanv,
this stuff is exactly what I wanted.

Johanv, do you find the Woodleighs give higher pressure than the Winchester pp? At 2500fps you really are nudging 375 H&H performance, something I'd only heard hinted at before.

Webfeet, the lowest of any of those loads you mentioned would probably do me. Though hopeful again on the possibilities of Win 785, I may see what's around at the local shop in the ADI range.

Well done, those men!
- Paul

I looked back up the thread and you had posed a question on powder compression that was not picked up. I think some of the issues with compression are:

1) Compression with extruded powders can crush and break the powder granules. This is turn can change the burning rate as the surface area of the grains broken also changes.

2) Compression can push a bullet forward over time. This can happen with or without a crimp though a firm crimp obviously does help stop this. You may have seen this effect yourself, and I know I have. I tend to check the COL of my compressed loads if they have been sitting around for a while just to make sure before I use them.

3) Compression can force into chunks that don't burn as well. This would be the opposite effect of the first change with the increased surface area in that it would decrease the surface area. The net result could be a hangfire or worse a sqib. I have seen the squib effect myself with a spherical powder although I can't rule out primer choice may also have played a factor with that one.

There are probably some more but that is what comes to mind. My personal guideline for powder compression is 105% for what it is worth. I have nudged that up on occasion with powder drop tube usage though, as I am sure you have as well.

Thanks webfeet.
Sorry if I gave the impression I was worried about compression of the charge. Only when using extruded powders have I ever come near it. My main concerns were the danger of loading too low with slow powders and seating the bullet too deep.

In regard to those ADI powders, I don't suppose you know of any .450/.400 3" loads using one of them? If I decide to get some new powder, I'd like to be able to load it for the double rifle as well. This would not be hot but meant to regulate the Woodleigh 400-grain softpoint at about 2000fps. Graeme Wright only mentions 80 grains of IMR4831 in his book, so the best load could be one using about 80 grains at a low-pressure, to match that weight of ejecta leaving the barrels. I guess I could just get 4831 but, without having asked, expect it to be hard to find here now. Maybe 4831 has the advantage of filling the case so no fillers are needed - I must read the book again.

Cheers
- Paul

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks webfeet and Johanv,
this stuff is exactly what I wanted.

Johanv, do you find the Woodleighs give higher pressure than the Winchester pp? At 2500fps you really are nudging 375 H&H performance, something I'd only heard hinted at before.
- Paul

Not at max. yet, so no pressure problems as yet and difficult to judge pressure levels. Roughly at 2600ft/s. And yes enough power in those 300's for almost anything here. Was quite surprised to get that close to 2500.
Cheers
Johan

So when you guys were talking about the 2,500 fps velocities with the Woodleigh 300 grain SP I got curious. It did seem a bit high so I took QuickLOAD's optimal load function to figure out what that would take.

I used a 24" barrel and ran it though its powder bank to get something that would do that. You are talking about 58,000 to 60,000 psi loads to get 2,500 fps with the best matched powders. To get to 2,600 fps you are talking about 68,000 psi with the best single powder, and everything else is higher pressure than that at 2,600 fps. The Pmax for that cartridge is 62,366 psi.

Popped primers don't usually happen until 70k psi and up from what I have read. They can happen earlier with things like sharp or uneven firing pins or even large firing pin holes but that is out of scope for this discussion. Those loads might not show pressure signs yet, but I am pretty sure the pressure is already there. I would expect that primer pockets don't seem to last as long, and case expansion a la Ken Waters method is significant.

Far be it from me to tell someone else how to load their cartridges, and we are all adults here. I do think it is okay to pass on information though it was a bit unsolicited on my part this time.

Thanks guys,
I'm a chicken from way back. I only began reloading (30 years ago) because, unable to find a 358 Winchester or .35 Whelen for sambar, I thought I'd load back the 338 to cut recoil. In time I decided that didn't matter and have reloaded to save money since or to use some bullet hard to get factory-loaded.

Your thoughts on velocities and pressures do help my deliberations on where to start, for all that.

By the way, American powders like 4831 are hard to get in Australia now because of explosives-shipping laws, so any reloading I do for the .450/.400 might need to be with ADI powders.

Thanks again
- Paul

AR2213 is H4831 why dont you drop an e-mail to
the guys on the A.D.I. website www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide might save you a lot of mucking around

Thanks Sambar02,
Sorry I'm not right up with these things. I reload about once evey five years, when the last lot and any ammo presents run out. I'm still using a Kg of powder bought more than 20 years ago.

Is H4831 close enough to IMR4831 for this purpose? Graeme Wright ('Shooting the British Double Rifle') wrote c.1996 that IMR4831 'aproximated' Mulwex 2213.

I know there is controversy about whether such slow-burning powders should be used
in low densities for NE loads but Graeme Wright's position has been defended.

Since pressure signs should never be approached in db rifles, I take it his 80 grains of IMR4831 is where to start, varying it up or down only for bullet-impact regulation purposes; to drop much below that load might be just as dangerous as to increase it much. This side of my completely rereading his book, does this sound a reasonable position?

Cheers
- Paul

In case anyone is still interested, I started those .338 300-gr Woodleighs at 64.5 gr of Win 785 and moved up to 65 grains with no problems. I might just go up another half grain and leave it at that. Penetration of bush and bull should be enhanced by the low velocity, if nothing else. Thanks everyone for your help.

- Paul

Hi Sambarman, I haven't shot anything with the 300gn bullets yet, but I have worked up a few loads. In MY rifle maximums for the 300gn Woodleigh SNRN are 70.0gn AR2213SC for 2448fps, 77gn AR2217 (compressed load) for 2465fps and 71gn Reloader 22 for 2500fps. You could drop back 5gn from each of these as a starting load and work up from there. I found the 300gn Woodleigh to be surprisingly accurate for such a long bullet. I thought it may have trouble stabilising, but it works just fine. You should be able to get 2400fps easily safely with any of those 3 powders, but faster than 2500fps I don't believe is possible (safely) with any powder on the market. Unfortunately I don't have data for 785. I haven't been able to get any of that for years. I hope this helps

Thanks 338user, somehow you post did not get to my email. I'm loading 66 grains of 785 probably for only about 2150fps but this approximates the early 9.3x62 loads Pondoro liked, except in frontal area, and should be OK for the mopane bush.

I have now used up all my Winchester primers, though, but have plenty of Remington 9.5 (can't find the half sign) and CCI 250 magnum primers left.

Would it be foolhardy to back off a grain or two and try one or both of them later?

Thanks for any further advice, anyone.

- Paul

Hi Sambarman, I haven't found that primers make a big difference in the 338. If you have a mild load, back off 1 grain when changing primers. If you have a maximum load back off 2 grains. The 300gn Woodleigh should work fine at 2150 fps, and I believe most shots in the Mopane are around 50 yards, so a flatter trajectory is not worth much.

Thanks 338user. Glad you see it that way since I've already loaded a few with one grain less, to test. At 100 yards the 300grain bullets actually seem to shoot to the same point as the Remington 250gr factory cartridges I'm taking to Africa, not a couple of inches lower as previous RN homeloads had. I'm sure they'd drop off quick after that but for bush work this is good.

- Paul