I know this has been asked a thousand times in different ways.
My 30-06 shoots 165gr HPBT Gamekings into less than an inch at two hundred yards and that from a bench that isn't the most steady in the world.
Anyway Shooters Pro Shop has Partitions in 150gr and 180gr which are less than half price of buying Partitions at full price.
At 30-06 speeds I think the Gamekings are fine but I think a Partition would be better all around if bigger game than deer were on the menu. I would like to stick to one load for everything to learn it inside and out.

Would you stick to the Sierra's or would you buy Partitions for half price and work up a load with them for everything. If the Partitions would you go for the 150's or the 180s?

The HPBT Sierra has long been known as arguably a slower expanding bullet over the game king and pro hunter

Under 1" @ 200?

I would leave it alone and go hunt

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
The HPBT Sierra has long been known as arguably a slower expanding bullet over the game king and pro hunter

Under 1" @ 200?

I would leave it alone and go hunt

Laying a ruler on it outside to outside is approx 1 3/16 before subtracting .308 bullet diameter.

Sounds to me like you already have a great load worked up for your 30-06. I would probably just stick with it.

However, you will NOT go wrong buying and shooting Nosler Partitions. I would personally pick the 180 grain version.

I shot the 180 grain Partition quite a bit in my 300 Wby Mag and the last several bull elk I shot with it never made it more than about 10 yards. I also shot the 180 grain Sierra ProHunter a lot and it kills deer and wild hogs with no problems at all. (Even knocked off a few coyotes from time to time.)

I reload for my relatives in Oregon and they have shot more game than I can count with the Sierra 180 grain ProHunter. They shoot deer, elk, black bears, etc. with no problems, I imagine the 165 HPBT would be just as good.

Just depends on if you want to try something different.

I've never read a post where someone complained about their Nosler Partitions.....take it from there.

I would be happy with 165 Hornady for deer,caribou,sheep,goat,wolves,and black bear. Add the 200gr Nosler Partition for moose,grizzly, and brown bears. I shoot a 30 Gibbs and have done all of the above!

200g Swift A-frame, Federal Premium factory loads.

Factory loads are for City People!

Depends on the game hunted! I use Sierras for deer hunting in my 30-06 and 308. If I'm elk hunting or bear hunting then I move up to a premium bullet.

The only thing I used in my 30-06 was 220gr Nosler Partitions. It was very effective on everything in Africa I used it on. Plains game up thru Wildebeest. Basically I have never used anything but Nosler Partitions if they were available in the weight and caliber I needed. Basically I only used something else when solids were called for and then I only used Woodlieghs. I have shot Nosler Partitions for well over 60 years with total success. Tried A-frames once for Impala for bait animals and after losing two from what proved to be zero expansion I never tried anything else.on the Impala I would just get a 30cal hole in and a 30cal hole out. In both cases the PH got both animals so we could easily see the wounds.

200 gr Partitions at 2700 fps with RL-22/IMR-7828 for ALL things 30-06.

quote:

Originally posted by waterrat:
I would be happy with 165 Hornady for deer,caribou,sheep,goat,wolves,and black bear. Add the 200gr Nosler Partition for moose,grizzly, and brown bears. I shoot a 30 Gibbs and have done all of the above!

no elk?

I love these threads

Hint.....150 grn Accubonds out of the 30-06 should never ever be used.....laffin

I am an advocate of cup an core bullets, as long as you have enough bullet they work just fine. But what I want to know is where can I get some partitions @ 1/2 price?

Look at it this way. The Sierras are fine for deer sized game and minute of Elk isn't that hard to achieve. By all means, try some partitions.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
200 gr Partitions at 2700 fps with RL-22/IMR-7828 for ALL things 30-06.

Partitions are the cornerstone by which all others are judged. For deer-who cares! Anything kills deer, but when you step it up a notch, the Partition flat works! Sierras are real accurate bullets, but I have seen several failures on game and will only load them at slow velocities or for varmints. They are not a durable bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I am an advocate of cup an core bullets, as long as you have enough bullet they work just fine. But what I want to know is where can I get some partitions @ 1/2 price?

.

Factory seconds come up quite often.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
I am an advocate of cup an core bullets, as long as you have enough bullet they work just fine. But what I want to know is where can I get some partitions @ 1/2 price?

Look at it this way. The Sierras are fine for deer sized game and minute of Elk isn't that hard to achieve. By all means, try some partitions.

Shooters Pro Shop

Do you have a need to change? Are you hunting something bigger? The hollow point Game Kings are harder than the spire point ones. I've used them in my .243 and the expansion and penetration is excellent. I'd be hard-pressed to change at this point. But I'm a handloader so there's definitely something better out there.

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
The HPBT Sierra has long been known as arguably a slower expanding bullet over the game king and pro hunter

Under 1" @ 200?

I would leave it alone and go hunt

I think Ted's post says it all, you have a great accurate load I too would go out and hunt with it. I've killed a pile of elk as well as quite a bunch of Mule deer, Antelope and a Bighorn and a Mountain Goat all with the same 30/06 and the same load, 180 grain Sierra Gameking, never recovered a bullet. I just took a 338 to Africa for plains game and shot every animal with 225 grain Sierra's. All pass throughs but one and that bullet weighed 202 grains after it nearly exited a Blue wildebeast.
There is no requirement that elk can only be killed with a "premium" bullet.
I think people get in trouble with Sierra's when they are pushed too fast but I doubt you'll get there with an 06.
Good luck on your hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
I know this has been asked a thousand times in different ways.
My 30-06 shoots 165gr HPBT Gamekings into less than an inch at two hundred yards and that from a bench that isn't the most steady in the world.
Anyway Shooters Pro Shop has Partitions in 150gr and 180gr which are less than half price of buying Partitions at full price.
At 30-06 speeds I think the Gamekings are fine but I think a Partition would be better all around if bigger game than deer were on the menu. I would like to stick to one load for everything to learn it inside and out.

Would you stick to the Sierra's or would you buy Partitions for half price and work up a load with them for everything. If the Partitions would you go for the 150's or the 180s?

As you are happy with the Sierras, I'd suggest use those until your supply is all used up.

Then I'd replace them with NPs, IF I could get any from the ProShop. Because they are considered "seconds" with cosmetic (not structural) defects and Nosler tries real hard not to make seconds, Nosler doesn't always have any in stock of the weight & diameter to suit everyone. With that in mind, you might start buying your stock of NPs before you run completely out of the Sierras.

They also used to limit sales on the "seconds" to about 200 bullets per weight and caliber per order. Don't know if they still do that, but if they do, you might want to buy as often as possible until you get up to the amount you wish to have on hand.

With one exception, all of the game I shot with the .30-06 was killed by the Sierra BTSP GK (I also like the harder GK HP for my .300 Win Mag's.
I thing the 165 GK is tailor made for .30-06 speeds and within 200 meters, it kills as well as the .300 Mag and with less meat damage.

These 3 GK bullets (1st. 7mm 160 g and 2 x .30 165 g) were recovered from the hindquarters (frontal shots) of, respectively : Muntjac, Red stag and Roedeer :


They behaved ideally and stayed together after near full lengthwise penetration.

Sierra bullets were a fabulous bullet before the Internet

quote:

Sierras are real accurate bullets, but I have seen several failures on game and will only load them at slow velocities or for varmints. They are not a durable bullet.

I don't know about now, but many years ago I saw two failures with my handloaded Sierras, both 150-grain Pro Hunters shot out of the rather pedestrian 7.65 Argentine Mauser.

My father lost a TX hill country six point that he shot in the boiler room at 40 yards, and about five months later called to ask me if he could come by the house; he had something to give me. I told him to come on by, and he brought me the copper jacket of another Pro Hunter. He had given the front shoulders of a doe he shot during the trip to my my uncle, and my uncle found the jacket buried in the front shoulder. No sign of the core.

That was enough... I used to shoot Sierras to work up loads and then substitute Grand Slams for the hunting loads. I don't do that any more as Sierras have gotten way too expensive.

A second anecdote: a buddy of mine was at the SHOT show a few years ago, and at my request asked the Sierra rep why I had bullet failures. The rep told Calvin that Sierras were not designed to be driven over 3K muzzle velocity. That was all I needed to hear: it takes them out of my .270, 7 RM, the upcoming .308 Norma, and probably several other rifles.

As for what I would shoot in the '06, it would be probably a Partition of 165 grains. It flies as flat as the 150s and hits as hard as the 180s. And although there are probably marginally more accurate bullets, Partitions just stay together. Period.

Evidently, whitetails have evolved to the point where Sierras and similar cup&core bullets are just not up to the task. Even our little 100 lb deer in FL now require a .338 or larger with premium monometal bullets. I'll be trying the Northfork Cup Points this season but next year I'll have a new 460WBY loaded with CEB Safari Grade bullets with me in the treestand.

Given your choices I'd try the 150 partitions if nothing bigger than deer are on the menu. If you intend to shoot bigger stuff, then I would choose the 180 partition. Back in the late 80s I was stationed in Montana, I had handloaded 180 grain Sierra Gamekings down to 30-06 velocity in my 300 Win Mag. I shot a button buck early in the morning straight in the middle of the chest at very close range during a drive. The bullet killed the deer and simply exploded inside the chest leaving only fragments.

Later that day, I shot a 4x4 whitetail through the lungs and the bullet exited the deer but left the copper jacket on the offside hide. When I rolled him over I saw the bullet jacket and initially mistook it for a copper rivet. I thought maybe Fish and Game had started tagging deer with something new.

I got both deer but I don't consider either situation acceptable bullet performance. I switched to premium bullets and they have served me well ever since. With respect to bullet selection, I have gone a different direction than you. I went with 168 Barnes TTSXs in my 30-06. I've been using Barnes bullets exclusively since the late 90s on deer, caribou, moose, goat, black bear, browns and grizzlies in a 338 Win Mag and they have performed just as I wanted. Naturally, when I bought a 30-06, I decided to stay with Barnes bullets because they have performed so well for me in 338 Win Mag. The Barnes bullets won't explode into fragments and they won't leave a copper jacket behind. Are they necessary for deer? I don't think so but I'd use em anyway. If I were you, I'd keep the Sierras for inexpensive practice and load up some 168 TTSXs for everything else.

I've never had a deer complain about Sierra 165HPBT from a 30-06 or a 300WM, all died with an exit wound.

I'd like to add that the 3 bullets I showed above were the only ones I recovered out of 92 various animals I shot with these Sierra bullets ; the remaining 89 were in and out wounds and bullets were lost. Could most of them have failed ?

Seriously, after over 40 years of dedicated hunting, I went to and came back from the "premium" bullet theory. Today, my choice is simple : choose the conventional expanding bullet that shoots the most accurately out of your rifle and place it where it belongs on game and that will do it. From there on, you are free to worry further about which skinning knife holds holds its edge the longest...

After tracking many deer I have found that when animal runs a long ways after what the hunter says was shot in the "boiler room"

The ones I managed to track down and kill were not hit in the vitals.

Ones experience with just one or two animals doesn't make or break a bullet.

Any of these threads brings me back to this thread they are still for sale with price increases.

See thread for price increase

http://forums.accuratereloadin...041057541#3041057541

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
I'd like to add that the 3 bullets I showed above were the only ones I recovered out of 92 various animals I shot with these Sierra bullets ; the remaining 89 were in and out wounds and bullets were lost. Could most of them have failed ?

Seriously, after over 40 years of dedicated hunting, I went to and came back from the "premium" bullet theory. Today, my choice is simple : choose the conventional expanding bullet that shoots the most accurately out of your rifle and place it where it belongs on game and that will do it. From there on, you are free to worry further about which skinning knife holds holds its edge the longest...

If you only caught 3 out of 92 that sounds like pretty good perfromance to me

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
After tracking many deer I have found that when animal runs a long ways after what the hunter says was shot in the "boiler room"

The ones I managed to track down and kill were not hit in the vitals.

Ones experience with just one or two animals doesn't make or break a bullet.

Any of these threads brings me back to this thread they are still for sale with price increases.

See thread for price increase

http://forums.accuratereloadin...041057541#3041057541

Those sound interesting. Do you give an AR discount? If not forget it

quote:

After tracking many deer I have found that when animal runs a long ways after what the hunter says was shot in the "boiler room"The ones I managed to track down and kill were not hit in the vitals.Ones experience with just one or two animals doesn't make or break a bullet.

P Dog Shooter, I don't like being called a liar... my father shot everything through the shoulders, and I got tired of cutting up the front shoulders because I had to cut around secondary projectiles. It just seemed a waste to me then, and still does.

Now, having said that, I will give you the long version of what happened:

What Dad told me was that the deer dropped at the shot. While he watched the deer kicking, it rolled over on its back with all four legs in the air, just like a dog. Then, it rolled up against a bush and managed to turn back onto its belly. The deer was in a bit of a low spot, and Dad told me the deer's head was bowed and its mouth open. The deer got its back legs under itself and went up the bank of the draw plowing, front end on the ground, with its mouth open and funneling leaves into its mouth. Dad told me he felt sorry for the animal and got out of the stand, cutting through the woods to intercept the deer and give it a killing shot. As he said it, "the front end was broken down; there was no way that deer was going to get up." Well, it did, and we never found it. Never found any blood, either.

And you can say what you wish, but two bullets that fail out of the same box of a hundred is dismal failure. I would venture to say that even you, in your astute and perfect judgment of all things projectile, would put the bullets back on the shelf and not use any more of them if you lost game because of them.

But maybe I am wrong. To me, however, the game deserves better dispatch, and an animal lost is wasted game.

Sense you and your Dad never recovered the deer. You have really do not know happen with the bullet or where it hit the deer.

Strange things happen bullet failure maybe did the bullet hit a limb or some thing else.

About the same thing happen with my daughter she never misses. Well after looking for what we knew was a dead deer hair and blood. We went back and search more. What we found was the bullet clip a small maple key holed through a 4 in aspen knocking the deer down cutting hair and drawing blood. Deer fell behind the hill it was standing one could see where it hit the snow. Fresh tracking snow perfect following conditions

My son and witnessed it looked like a bang flop to all three of us.

Never did catch up to that one strange things happens some times. Unless one recovers the animal one really never know.

I looked at the spot where the deer got its back legs under it, and the entire area around. It was as clear as your front yard. Had there been a bush or anything else, Dad wouldn't have taken the shot. He was well into his sixties and had never lost a deer. He was just that conservative.

You are correct; I don't know exactly where that deer was hit, but with it not being able to get up on its front legs, and with it having its head curled down, the deer was mortally hit, and my history with my father was both front shoulders broken.

He didn't get up and run off; he crawled until he found something thick to crawl into.

It is just a shame, but because of those two instances I won't use Sierras; call me hardheaded, but in my mind they lost a deer, and I had evidence of a cup and core failure from the same box the following spring. Enough evidence for me to make the decision...

Years ago Handloader magazine did a pretty extensive study of rifle projectiles, and had an entire fold out chart showing the results of different bullets shot into media at different velocities. If my memory is correct, the Sierras were the worst performers of all the bullets tested.

quote:

the deer was mortally hit, and my history with my father was both front shoulders broken.

Then a better tracking job needed to be done.

If a bullet goes trough a deer and breaks both shoulders its going to destroy what ever is in between.

Deer do not go far with both shoulders broken one yes both not.

I'll say it again having tracked hundreds of rifle shot and bow shot deer for myself friends and family over 45 years of deer hunting.

Every time the deer as went much over a hundred yards the shot wasn't as good as they claimed it was if and when I found them.

My father who during the depression killed a lot of deer with a 22rf.

Said that the distance a lung shot deer with a 22 and with his 300 savage will run is about a hundred yards.

Better blood trail with the 300 but about the same distant.

So every time I hear I shot them through the lungs (breaking both shoulders would result in that) A odd angle only taking one lung they can run farther.

Then hear that the deer got away to never be found. I say it didn't happen, poor tracking
. Or the hit cause the deer to act like it and the bullet didn't go where expected.

A shot that what I would call a near spine hit causing temporary partial paralyses could very well be the explanation behind what happen to your fathers deer.

I seen that happen on several deer looks like bang flops then all of a sudden the deer is up and gone. Or is killed by a 2 second shot before it gets away.

quote:

If a bullet goes trough a deer and breaks both shoulders its going to destroy what ever is in between.

You just don't quit, do you? It didn't go "trough" the deer... THE BULLET CAME APART AND DID NOT EXIT. THEREFORE NO BLOOD. ANOTHER PROJECTILE FROM THE SAME BOX DID EXACTLY THE SAME THING. THEREFORE, I WON'T USE SIERRAS ANY MORE.

I am done here...

Your right I don't quit because what your saying doesn't make sense.

You said the bullet broke both shoulders now your saying the bullet came apart.

You don't know what happen with the bullet if it came apart or did not come apart.

If it hit both shoulders or not

YOU DID NOT RECOVER THE DEER YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPEN.

If a bullet came apart and still had a piece big enough to break the opposite shoulder it would have destroyed what ever was in between and the deer would not have went very far.

Having field dress butchered hundreds of deer and seen such bullet performance as you described. the lungs heart are normally mush.

How do I know I use to shoot deer with 30-06 and 125gr bullets at around 3200fps, They never exited came apart after about 4 inchs small pieces of lead through out what was left of the lungs.

I can tell you evey one of a couple of dozens of deer I shot with that load died really fast.

Then you try to tell me a 150gr bullet did almost the same thing with enough power left to break the far shoulder.

That did didn't kill the deer shortly BS.

All I can say what you think was bullet failure was a bullet that didn't hit where you thought did or the deer was not found for other reasons.

Professional basketball players making millions and practice daily can miss a simple free throw, but Doubless father can't no way miss a shot on a deer..

Your right I don't quit because what your saying doesn't make sense. You said the bullet broke both shoulders now your saying the bullet came apart. I never said the bullet broke both shoulders; I said my HISTORY with my father was both shoulders broken. You inferred that; I never said it. Go back and re-read what I posted...Also, explain to me how a bullet can NOT come apart and yet leave absolutely NO blood trail. I don't think you can do that...

You don't know what happen with the bullet if it came apart or did not come apart.If it hit both shoulders or not YOU DID NOT RECOVER THE DEER YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPEN.If a bullet came apart and still had a piece big enough to break the opposite shoulder it would have destroyed what ever was in between and the deer would not have went very far.
Having field dress butchered hundreds of deer and seen such bullet performance as you described. the lungs heart are normally mush.
I will give you that... but I ask you this: IF the bullet puked its core and the lead started to fragment, how would it turn the lungs to mush? There isn't enough mass there to do that. And for whatever it is worth, I have butchered a couple of hundered deer myself, and several score of hogs as well, so I know what kind of carnage a bullet can do. I also know what bullet failure inside a carcass looks like, unfortunately.

How do I know I use to shoot deer with 30-06 and 125gr bullets at around 3200fps, They never exited came apart after about 4 inchs small pieces of lead through out what was left of the lungs.I can tell you evey one of a couple of dozens of deer I shot with that load died really fast. Then you try to tell me a 150gr bullet did almost the same thing with enough power left to break the far shoulder. That did didn't kill the deer shortly BS. There you go back to that "broke both shoudlers" statement I never said. Again: my HISTORY with my father was both shoulders broken. And I don't know what kind of carnage was inside the animal. Will you, in your high and mighty knowledge, admit it is at least POSSIBLE that the bullet fragmented, got only ONE LUNG and damaged a shoulder to where the buck couldn't get up???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I can say what you think was bullet failure was a bullet that didn't hit where you thought did or the deer was not found for other reasons.[/quote]

I will ask you one final time: explain what happened with the doe: you know: the OTHER deer that was shot on the same trip, with a bullet from the same box, and the jacket was found in the front shoulder? You can't, because just like the buck, you don't know either. He got lucky that time, because the core held together enough to get both lungs...
I will state this one last time, and I am done. When a deer is shot at roughly 40 yards with a 150-grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of roughly 2800 fps and leaves no exit wound (no blood), but knocks a deer down to the point where it cannot regain its feet, the bullet failed. It just took the deer too long to die, and that is unfortunate. I don't know what happened inside that animal (you don't either...), but it not coming out is bullet failure. Period. I would say the same thing about that bullet in a .308, my .270, or any other rifle. THAT close, at THAT velocity, there is NO reason for that bullet to have not exited on a thin-skinned Hill Country TX whitetail of maybe 130 - 140# live weight.

OP, sorry to have hijacked this thread. And I mean that.

Sounds like a person with a clear view and NOTHING but clear as a front yard seeing an animal thrashing around and plowing with it's mouth and taking on leaves, should have done the humane thing and gave a finishing shot. There and then. Not somewhere down the road.

quote:

history with my father was both front shoulders broken.

Seems clear to me you believed both front shoulders were broken

" THAT close, at THAT velocity, there is NO reason for that bullet to have not exited on a thin-skinned Hill Country TX whitetail of maybe 130 - 140# live weight.

Really no reason sure there can be several reasons.

Of the dozens and dozens of poorly shot deer that I have tracked and finished off for other people.

All most to a person from first time hunters to season veteran's with many deer kills under their belt.

When ask where they shot the deer they all say right behind the shoulder. I even had them tell me after finding and finishing off their wounded deer. That can't be my deer I didn't shoot them there.

Your in denial and trying to blame a bullet for losing that deer.

Because we know you DAD never misses never had a bullet not go where it was suppose to.

Never had a bullet strike some thing between the target and him self.

Never had a deer die and fall some place where it wasn't easy to see and walked by it a dozen times before spotting it.

Never had fat plug and exit hole while the lungs fill up leaving no blood trail.

Never had a critter take a different route and missing the trail because it couldn't have went that way.

Never missed that tiny spot of blood that soaked into the ground.

Every deer shot with a GOOD bullet always leaves a perfect blood trail to follow.


I don't know why you didn't find that deer but I believe that there is a 99.9 percent chance that it wasn't because of bullet failure.

I learned one thing with all my experience tracking or looking for an animal that's been shot.

Is if it is still moving SHOOT it until it isn't moving.

Always look harder and longer when you know you made a good shot.

That a good blood trailing dog well find wounded/dead game faster then any human could.

As some one else tag line says The famous last words of a trophy fee gone bad is DON'T SHOOT AGAIN YOU HIT HIM HARD THE FIRST TIME.

Many strange things happen from the time the bullet leaves the barrel to when and after it hits the target.