I've just gotta ask. I've read a few posts by people talking about shooting or needing to shoot 400 and 500 yards. Now, I've never even tried to shoot that far, but I just don't believe that shots that long are feasible under field conditions. I just don't. Perhaps someone has gotten lucky and actually hit something at that range, but I tend to think that would be an exception rather than the rule. Am I being a jerk by saying this? I really want to know if I'm just being ignorant.

with a good steady rest, accurate rifle, scope with at least 9x, and time to get good and set up, I think 400 is do able.

Yep, you're being ignorant.

I can hit the bull no problem with a 2x7 scoped 30-06 at 400 yards. Lay prone, it's easy. People that go on and on about shooting game at 400 and 500 yards have generally never shot anything, including paper, over 100 yards. Try it... it ain't as hard as you think (as long as the wind is cooperating!).

I did one at 404 laser ranged yds last year. It was the longest shot of my life at game. One shot= 10 of the best tasting summer sausage sticks ever

Terry

Brasso, Actually the 400-500 yard shots are just getting interesting to us varmint hunters!! And as far as depopulation deer hunting goes.....400 is a good place to start! Now I won't take an offhand shot at a running beast at long ranges but if we're set up and ranged in, no problem! I'll always try to use a rest of some sort, shooting stix, a tree or whatever when hunting to be as ethical as I can but when the conditions are right and you know your guns and loads, it's not that difficult! GHD

quote:

Now, I've never even tried to shoot that far

That would be reason enough for me not to pass judgement on other shooters that do shoot that far.Many very experienced shooters that practise at those ranges on a regular basis and use good equipment including a laser rangefinder,can usually place bullets more precisely at 400 to 500 yards than the average hunter can at 200 yards.

The right rifle with capability of making a clean shot at that distance, good optics, a solid rest, and most importantly practice would make this type of shot totally feasible to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Brasso:
I've just gotta ask. I've read a few posts by people talking about shooting or needing to shoot 400 and 500 yards. Now, I've never even tried to shoot that far, but I just don't believe that shots that long are feasible under field conditions. I just don't. Perhaps someone has gotten lucky and actually hit something at that range, but I tend to think that would be an exception rather than the rule. Am I being a jerk by saying this? I really want to know if I'm just being ignorant.

You need to stay within your ability. If you have never practiced at 400 or 500 yards you sure shouldn't try to shoot game at that distance.

I have said this before, in other threads. I won't hold anyone else in contempt for doing it, but I am not going to do it myself. There is just too much that can go wrong, and once you get to where you have to put the crosshairs above the animal, I am out of my league.

Almost all calibers fall pretty dramatically after about 335 yards, and to make up the difference, one is required to "put some air" under the horizontal hair. I have yet to figure out what 6" above an animal's back looks like 400 yards away.

Doubless, I don't put "air under the hair"! I dial the MOA into the scope and pull the trigger!! No guessing!! The MOA charts have been worked out both on a computer and BY SHOOTING THOSE LOADS AT THOSE DISTANCES! That's what "target turrets" and quality glass are for! GHD

I know guys who are more accurate at 500 yards than 90% of the hunters are at 100. The key is practice. These shots should not be attempted without a ton of practice shots at these same distances.

This topic has aroused some pretty intense debate and even the trading of insults (imagine that on AR!!!???) on previous threads. I am opposed to long range shots at living animals although I am well aware that hitting an Elk at 500 yds. can be done.

I have been shooting since 1958 and I have managed a gunshop and was asked to operate a local rifle club range some years ago. I received some of my early rifle instruction from a world champion Bisley shooter and I have seen some very fine shots in action; I have also seen/heard a great many self-styled experts in the gunstores and at the ranges who can't keep five offhand shots in a foot at 100 yds.

Frankly, I think that shooting at any game animal beyond 300 yds. under B.C. conditions is questionable and prefer to limit my shots to that range. In 41 years of hunting, I have stuck to this and have NEVER wounded and lost an animal. Maybe there are those whose criteria are different and whose skills are far superior to mine (not hard!), but, to me, sportsmanship is about self-discipline and knowing your real limits.

I would agree that there are people out there that can do this. I think that there are a few who think they can and try. The ones who try but really don't have the ability or skill to do so give much fuel to a debate like this. I think as hunters we need to know our limitations and stick to them. Be it 50yds for some and 500 for others. We owe it to the game we hunt. There was a time when I would have taken a shot at 400 or so yards, but now I like to hunt with a handgun and find it more fun to get close to the game instead of how far. To each his own, but I like to see the look in their eyes when I pull the trigger now.

I wouldn't say you are ignorant, but in some cases, it's quite feasable to shoot out to & beyond 500yds on big game. Even w/ a LR, wind & animal movement become huge problems. A marginal hit on a pdog may be noe problem, but on a deer or especially elk, a long tracking job & maybe a lost animal, just not in my hunting ethics.
There are guys on the LR forum that routinely do this, but if I want to play, I'll shoot @ varmints. If I want to hunt, I'll try to get a wee bit closer.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Frankly, I think that shooting at any game animal beyond 300 yds. under B.C. conditions is questionable and prefer to limit my shots to that range. In 41 years of hunting, I have stuck to this and have NEVER wounded and lost an animal. Maybe there are those whose criteria are different and whose skills are far superior to mine (not hard!), but, to me, sportsmanship is about self-discipline and knowing your real limits.

Well said.

The farthest I can practice from a bench is 300 yds, which I have done a lot of. Most of my hunting rifles can hold MOA out to that range. But add in a gusty wind, some rain or snow, a lesser quality rest (like a back pack), a pounding heart/lungs, non-level grade, an imperfect cheekweld, animal movement, or a mis-estimated range and MOA turns into a shotgun pattern pretty quickly.

Besides, if I as a (big-game) hunter can't get within 300 yds of my quarry, I figure I don't deserve it.

I did one at 640 lasered yards. The shot was a bit too far back and it took a few hours to finish the bear off. I would never do it again. I will shoot bear, elk to 350 and a max of 400 if conditions are perfect. Deer to 400 or so max again with ideal conditions. I simply don't need the anumal so bad that I will take a questionable shot.

I'm not about to popo anyone else that does take longer shots in fact I still do on antelope. You can tell from their body language if they are getting ready to take off and the guns I hunt them with are flat hard hitting mags. I'll go to 500 for a lope and I will someday take out my 50 bmg and then I'll go even further as that will be the point of it all. In my mind they are one step above gophers and a small one at that.

I really prefer to get to 300 yds or less but hunting is an imperfect sport and sometimes you just can't get that close. At that point youneed to evaluate your skills, your weopons ability and the animal yu're shooting for. If you believe you can do it then I see no issue in giving it a go however if you have any doubt I fell it is irresponsible to attempt a shot like that if you have the slightest doubt in your mind regarding your abbility or your weapon. Weather conditions animals alertness and a hiost of other things enter into that decision, for me anyway. As I said I just don't need the meat that bad adn there is always another day to get the trophy. In fact what a great excuse to keep hunting.

To each his/her own. good hunting to all. It's about having fun and for me the sights, sounds and nature is all paart of it. I have tremendous respect for the animals I hunt and my greatest fear to to loose one or to have one suffer for any length of time that was caused my me, especially if because of poor judgement.

JMHO
john

I was with a bunch of guys that went to Wyoming hunting doe/fawn.....purely a herd control meat hunt. We had nine tags for deer and antelope between us and took a position on a few of those big round bales. The rest we had was as good as it gets and we actually paced off 100 yard markers and installed wooden dowels with stiff flags on them to mark distances. The longest kill we made was at 550 yards and not a single animal was lost to injury. All were killed and none moved more than a few yards. We used a .25-06 and a 6MM remington for the shots.

This don't really count as hunting as it's nothing more than benchrest shooting but the point is simply that if one is prepared, sighted in and knows the tradjectory and further confines his shooting to what he's trained for those ranges are do able.

In general hunting, as said earlier, if I have to aim over the back of an animal to hit it then I don't shoot. There's just too much left out of control. Personally 300 yards is a long shot for a hunter....or at least it is for this one.

Brasso-this is a topic that brings out a lot of different sentiments. For what it is worth I'll toss in my 2 cents worth.

First off IMO shooting is about knowing your abilities,staying within them and having respect for the game.

I do quite a lot of shooting, my fav long range rifle is on its 8th tube. This year so far I have 744 rounds thru it. The greater majority of those from field postions and to 800 yards. By the end of the year I'll have close to 1000 round thru the gun. It would be safe to say that I am fairly intimate with the rifle.

I also shoot 3 other rifles quite a bit and will most likely be right around 2500 rounds for the year thru all of them.

Long range shooting is something that I've been a student of since 1989. I've learned a ton over those years, and have burned a butt load of powder!

My main go to rifle is an old 700 with a Jewell trigger and a 4-14 Leo with Premier dots to 700 yards. It has a 4.5 weight Schneider on it cut to 25" (chambered to 7 Mashburn Super). I have done some very good work with this rig and have a world of confidence in it and my ability with it. If I had to protect myself and family this would be slam dunk my go to rifle!

Shooting at long range for me is about being mentally ready and physically ready. It's about having the right equipment and about being able to build a good nest to shoot from. It's about knowing your gun and your abilities so you can know when you should shoot and when you should not. And like anything else out there you will have days you are on, and days when you need to be holding off. It's also about being able to read wind/angle/mirage and postition and attitude of the game.

Just because I practice quite a bit doesn't mean I always take the shot. 2 years ago I passed on my last chance of the year to fill my buck tag. Snowy conditions, tough angle, couldn't get a good rest and I didn't feel comfy I could dunk it with the one shot I would get. So I passed the shot and went home, oh yeah the range was about 175 yds.

So yeah it can be done, should it be tried by those not practiced in it. Nope, people gotta know their abilities and stay within them.

I would as a general rule rather take a shot at long range that I was set up for, than I would a shot at a lot closer range that I could not get totally ready for.

If people spendt time practicing under the proper tutor they would really be amazed at what they are capable of.

For the practiced at distance when they are set up a shot at 400 is just a chip shot.

One last thing people never get to conversing about running shots. Not hardly ever do you ever hear anything about it on these forms. But, I know good and darn well that people will toss lead with no, none, natta thought at a running critter. And then at the same time they will be critical of the practiced rifleman shooting at long range.

The area I hunt elk is a place where you can just as easily shoot accross canyon than not. I generally take a day to drive to camp 3 days to hunt and a day to drive home. And that is the extent of my elk hunt for most years. With that in mind and the fact that I love elk meat I wanna be as ready as possible for the shot.

Good luck to ya

Mark D

Good post Mark, esp the part about passing on the shot if the conditions are not right, regardless of the range.

In the following photo, ranges can run from 65yd (out of frame at 3 O'Clock) to 440yd (over the windage turret). As this is a evening feeding field, the deer don't enter until the last 10 minutes of shooting light, and can do so anywhere in the photo to the forementioned 3 O'Clock.
If your practiced and prepaired it's fine, if not than don't do it.

Nice picture. After seeing it. I'm turning this computer off and going outside!

Terry

Some good posts. I think as usual Mark offers a well thought out and well written response. The key is hunters knowing their limitations as shooters and of their equipment. Where I do have a problem is with some of the long range crowd that intentionally look to take as long a shots as possible. I feel a hunter has a responsibility to do everything possible to make their shot as much a slam dunk as possible. In my mind the art of hunting is to give yourself as easy a shot as you can.

Jeff

Brad, Mark-
Gotta agree with your every word. I will on occasion take a long shot if mother nature allows it and I'm prepared to do so. I often think the average shooter forgets that point blank range on the average hunting rifle is approximately 325 yards for those who zero +2" at 100 yards.

Thanks for the responses guys. I guess I've just never tried shooting that far, since there is nowhere around here to do it, so just assumed that it was not readily possible.

Although, I don't quite think the average hunting rifle has a 325yd point blank range. Maybe for a super belted magnum belcher, but most standard cartridges appear to have a 200 to 250 yard PBR.

Buckshot, Mark is the finest long range rifle shot I've ever known. BUT, he's spent a lot of time to get that way and keeps his skills sharp. His rifles are (mostly) set up for it. We were out the other day with his battery shooting from 400 to 800 yards. The wind was cooperating and anything out to 600 yards was pretty much a slam dunk. It got trickier at 800! Course, we had rangefinders and loads tailored to the dot set-up's in each rifle as well as bipods... gotta have the right gear!

Like Mark said though, under some conditions 175 yards is too far... a man's gotta know his limitation's.

BTW, last year elk hunting one particular day I got on a big 6pt bull standing in his bed at 70 yards... I passed on the shot cause he was badly screened... I just had no confidence. If he were standing at a windless 500 yards he'd have been a lot "closer" if that makes sense!

I didn't punch my tag last year...

To be successful at shooting game at 400 to 500 yards one needs to practice practice practice and it really helps if your intended game hangs out at your targets.

Brad thanks for the nice words, it was awesome at the range tonight. A bit cool and damp in the air but hardly anyone out there.

I put 30 rounds thru the 7 Mashburn mostly at 400. My final group at 400 was just right at 2", that should work ok I guess.

Perhaps Jr. should use the ol Mashburn this weekend. I know he can shoot and as long as he can count I would guess that the lopers would be in trouble a long ways off. Ah heck he's a smart kid (you spose he takes after mom or dad?), he'll be able to count just fine.

I can't wait to watch him put the cochise on his first loper!!!


Mark D

Ask Smallfry, he shoots .378Mag "Sheep Rifle"!

I've shot milk jugs filled with water out to 400
yards using bags placed on a stump. The more you do it the easier it gets. I still don't get them on the first shot all of the time.I did hit one antelope at 400 yards while it was running. It was already wounded or I wouldn't have tried the shot, and hitting it was a fluke.

The most incredible shot I've actually witnessed was later lasered at 586 yards. My brother made this shot at a milk jug first shot with a brand new Remington Model 7 243. After he made the shot which was pretty much dead center and after I missed several attempts with my 6.5x55 at another jug, he later went to sight it in on paper at 100 yards and it wasn't even on the target.
Luck matters.

I like my shots longer. Just like GHD, I use charts, lazers, and a shooting bench with a mechanical rest. I build my long range stuff to shoot that way. a 500yd+ rilfe IS NOT the same as a 300yd hunting rifle.

target turrets are your best friend when you get to this point.

Mark-
I doubt you remember, but I met you out at the MRSA range over a decade ago. IIRC you were working on loads for a (then new anyway) custom mauser.
BTY, we are both huge fans of .338 calibre.
Good luck this hunting season.

Longest shots I have ever taken (on game) were 325 yards measured, prone over a snow bank, at two white tail deer. Two shots and two deer.

Rifle was a 35 Whelen (250 Speer spitzer with 53 gr of IMR 4895 at about 2500 fps). Rifle had a Lyman peep sight.

Closest shot I have ever taken (on game) as at 15 feet (also measured) standing while shooting a charging mule deer buck in the top of his skull. (I interrupted him while he was with a doe and didn't like it.)

The rifle was a 30-40 Krag with 180 gr bullet. Also had a Lyman Peep sight, but I was just "pointing down the barrel" by then because he was getting pretty close.

Barstooler

joecool544
Looks like you have a good plan.
However, I would rather hide in the brush in the upper right of your photo and shoot my elk at 20 yards.

Like everyone else has already stated, Practice is key. I sit in a field every summer and shoot paper plates out to 600yds all day long and after hundreds of shells down range from a bi-pod or shooting sticks you learn your gun well.

I don't think those shots should be taken with a swiftly moving target but with good accurate rifles with good ammo and optics, 400 and 500yds is only the beginning for what they can really perform at.

Nice pictures. I don't have any place like those for shooting. I have a 200 yd range but I do get some long shoots when I go hunting sometimes out of state.

Brasso: I just took a nifty Buck Antelope Monday October 10th at a Leica Laser ranged 441 yards. I hit within 2" of my desired point of impact. Dead Antelope - no question!
I have bought, put together, used and practiced with a Rifle/scope/bullet combination that is very accurate - even at "long range" (400 to 500 yards) and is fully capable of quickly lethal hits at that range!.
Yes in my experiences 441 yards IS a long shot but in the areas I Hunt Antelope and Mule Deer in 300 yard shots are getting to be the norm anymore!!!
Especially on the more mature Bucks (of both species!) and on Bull Elk.
I lasered a mature 6x6 Bull Elk on the second day of Montanas Rifle season last year and as I recall it was 360 yards. That was a "gimmee" for the gear I was using that day also and a one shot kill resulted there on that very slowly walking target!
A 400 yard shot on an Elk sized head of game is a lot different than a 400 yard shot on an Antelope sized head of game though!
Elk country and Antelope country are both susceptible to being wind country! And in real windy conditions I would not try a "long shot".
Yes long shots are feasible under field conditions as I have been making some rather long shots on game here over the last five years or so!
Give the long shooting a try sometime and see for yourself how well YOU can do!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I was out to the range yesterday with my buddy reconfirming his 338wm. He was a leupold with mil dots. no trouble making frist round hits out to 500. This was with a quartering wind at about 20 mph.

I recently talked about guns and shooting with my farmer bneighbor from whom I buy hay. Seems he has a .30/'06 that he bought "for shooting groundhogs". He described it as "very accurate", he'd recently killed a ground hog at 410 yards with it. I had to see his rifle and the scene of this accomplishment for myself. His rifle doesn't even have a scope on it-just the "as issued" iron sights! Just as I was about to conclude that this guy is one helluva shot, he took me out into the pasture where this shot was made. I had my trusty rangefinder with me, but did not have the heart to tell him that his 410 yards was actually only 147!

I think this kind of stuff happens a lot!

quote:

Originally posted by joecool544:
To be successful at shooting game at 400 to 500 yards one needs to practice practice practice and it really helps if your intended game hangs out at your targets.

Where's the BULL??

when i got my first centrefire rifle(.243), i was asking the same questions as Brasso,
"how do people shoot at such long distances?"
first off, i was using factory ammo. now i would"nt fire a factory round out of anything other than .22 rimfire. it"s just plain crap!
my next advance was a lazer range finder. i won"t go stalking without it. dead ground, poor visability, many other things can make range estimation very difficult. often you can imagine distances are longer than they really are. right now, i would shoot at a deer at 300 mtrs,(with my 308) if all other factors were in my favour(prone, rested at forend and but,little or no wind, deer in open, heart/lung or simply shoulder shot)
i will shoot at a deer first thing in the morning, with my dog beside me, but i might not shoot the same deer in the last minutes of light in the evening, without a dog. (although that"s not a marksmanship issue)
as you develop loads for flat shooting and terminal ballistics, and learn where that bullet will be at a given range(i have all the trajectory points for my 243 written on 2" masking tape stuck to the underside of my range finder!), you will become more confident as you get out further.
and lastly, i don"t think i ever really heard lies until i started rifle shooting !!!
good luck and good shooting