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A certain individual posted the statement below recently.Do you think that the statement has merit,or is it B.S.?
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| one of us |
I win bets at the range from statements like that! My expectation from an untuned hunting rifle is 2MOA ... at least 1.5 once cleaned up or its gone. 1.25 MOA from an untuned varmint rifle, sub-MOA once tuned in and after load development. Cheers... Con | |||
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I agree with the above post. Most out of the box bolt guns will shoot 1.25-1.75" groups with factory ammunition. After load development most of my rifles will shoot honest .75-1.0" groups. A few do even better. | |||
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B.S. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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BS With factory ammo I want 1 MOA out of my rifles. Just had to restock and bed one to get there. Think the guy that made that statement just enjoys a good troll. ______________________ I don't shoot elk at 600 yards for the same reasons I don't shoot ducks on the water, or turkeys from their roosts. If this confuses you then you're not welcome in my hunting camp. | |||
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sub MOA groups do not ensure clean kills. sub MOA groups instill a level of confidence that those without cannot begin to understand. thats why my choice is and will remain Steyr mannlicher rifles. | |||
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This may be ridiculous to some of you but, If a bolt rifle will not shoot sub MOA, I don't care to own it. I only shoot handloads in my rifles, so the factory ammo question is meaningless to me. I think it would be reasonable to expect any good quality bolt rifle to shoot 1.5 out of the box with good factory ammo, .5" aint gonna happen w/o serious load development. I do own several stock rifles that will do .5" with custom loads. There are quite a few stock rifles capable of .5" BUT, there's not alot of shooters capable to shoot those rifles to their full potential. Your average hunter probably only shoots 2-3" groups even from the best rifles. I can tell you from experience, I've done several custom loading jobs for friend's rifles that shot great only to have them tell me it shot so so. I prefer them to watch me shoot it or I'll send them the targets. Reloader | |||
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I agree with this. There are some that will do better than 2 MOA, but in this day & age with all the claims for half-minute rifles, we often tend to expect too much right out of the box. However, lets not confuse apples with watermelons here! There is very often a big difference between what a RIFLE will do vs what the shooter can do-beginner or otherwise! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I always handload and experiment with components and velocity until I can achieve the smallest possible group. I think anyone can shoot a 3 shot group and get a tiny 3 hole cluster, I've done it a hundred times, but I only accept 5 shot groups. I keep working on my loads until they prove they can consistently shoot. My Hunting rifles true 5-shot group sizes: M-700 .30-06: 5 shot 1" group, 165gr Hornady BTSP @ 2850 fps MV M-700 .270 Sendero Sub 1" group, 140gr Nosler Accubond @ 3025 fps MV M-700 .338WM 1.5" group, 250gr Nosler Partition @ 2645 fps MV M-700 8x57 1.25" group, 220gr Sierra GameKing @ 2275 fps MV (I think I can improve this) M-700 .300H&H 1" group, 200gr Nosler Accubond @ 2725 fps MV CZ-550 .458 Lott 5" group (iron sights), 500gr Hornady IB @ 2250 fps MV ZKK-602 .416RM 3.5" group, 400gr Hornady IL @ 2350 fps MV Marlin M-1895GS 4.5" group, 350gr Horandy FN IL @ 2025 fps MV | |||
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It's BS.... I would bet from time to time a factory new rifle will shoot close to half inch groups with factory ammo if the shooter is capable of it... The next rifle off the line from that one may shoot 3 inch groups... Simply a case of luck of the draw... Modern manufacturing does make it possible to have reasonably accurate rifles right out of the box but not half MOA from ANY rifle out of the box by any beginner  ...My Ruger 77 in 30-06 was just over MOA out of the box... A simple recoil pad change and a trigger job brought it below MOA... My Weatherby Accumark was just sub MOA out of the box but you would hope so for the money you spend on them... Both of these are using factory ammo... I have yet to reload for either but that will be happening soon... I am hopeful that I will whitle them close to half MOA but I will be happy with consistent sub MOA.... I know this might sound strange but from the '06 I shoot 4 shot groups since that is all that can be fired with a full mag and one in the pipe without reloading.... My 338-378 I go with 3 shot groups for the same reason, 2 in the mag an one in the camber is all she'll hold... Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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I don't beleave it.... My Son’s 30-06 with tuned ammo will vary between 1MOA to .5 MOA depending on the day (My boy’s mood). With some work on finding the correct ammo and an experienced shooter 1 MOA should be believable | |||
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I believe in the old Winchester theory that "one in a thousand" rifles leaves the factory in which all the parts have the exacting tolerances necessary to create a superbly accurate rifle. Most times only some of the parts are exacting, and occasionaly none are. These should be marked as shotguns. "If you give a million monkeys a million typewriters, one of them is bound to..." | |||
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TIKKA/SAKO guarantee 1 MOA !! Anyway all mine are 1" or better then I have no excuses for missing !! | |||
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Maybe I'm showing my age but I remember when magazines touted 3" at 100 yards was acceptable hunting accuracy for most hunters. I think that is a bit on the high side. I'm not too picky but I want around 1" at 100yds, If not, a rebarrel is in order. I hand load and can usually get there. RH | |||
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How many people can hold half MOA or even MOA? I shoot Highpower matches as often as I can. I shot at the Nationals this year. I practice. I take my J.C. Higgins M50 deer rifle to the range to zero the thing. I put a recoil pad on it, wanted to see how that effected things. Shot it after a 100 yard reduced match. With a 12 pound match rifle I had been shooting 20 round groups in the high 190's. I think I shot a 97 standing, which means most everything is going to be within 4, 5 inches at one hundred yards offhand. So, I was doing good that day. Now I decide to shoot the deer rifle sitting, with a sling. With all the scrub brush around here, if you are on the ground, you are either standing or kneeling to see over it. The rifle will shoot off the bench close to 1.5 inches. Which is fine for me. But sitting, that light weight wippy rifle, I had trouble keeping my shots in the black. Like 4 inches at 100 yard. Those things are hard to shoot well. I don't think having a 0.5 MOA deer rifle is going to improve my hit probability. If the best I can do is four inches at 100 yards, then if the rifle is 2 MOA or 3 MOA, it is still shooting inside my hold. | |||
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I like to hve rifle around 1 MOA, but will tolerate 1.5 MOA. More important is what the first shot does from a cold, clean barrel compared to the following shots. That being said, from a knee I can hit a 5 inch circle 100% at 100 yds, tanding that is about 90%. Prone I can hit a 5 " circle out to 400 yds 100%. I guess it just depends on where you hunt and how far away your shots are. John | |||
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not only is this statement pure  but most of the statements made by this poster are of equal value./////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have to jump on the bandwagon and agree that that statement is crap. An untuned factory rifle that shoots 1 moa is an acception. Also , a big game rifle doesnt need to shoot ant better. None of us pack benches around! | |||
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  ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Ok lets put this to the test, Next time at the range I am going to graduate an 11 year old from a ruger 10-22 to .220 swift. Now you can't get more beginner than this, but alas the rifle is not new but it does shoot small groups. The only rifle I have here considered as new is way too much for him. Hopefully I will be able to get him a new .223 and then we can run the full test. And as for the quote I have not had a rifle shoot 1/2" groups new out of the box without work to the rifle, time in the reloading room and time at the bench and so on. If I can get 1-1/4" groups all the time in different conditions in a hunting rifle I am pretty happy. I keep looking for better and sometimes get it other times I do not. I have 3 factory rifles that shoot close to 1/2" groups with the loads they like the best. Some days they are 1" other days they are under 1/2" some days I am shooting like a pro other days I might be better off with a shotgun. Way too many variables for most fo us to get a handle on all of them. | |||
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Whew! | |||
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Most of my hunting rifles will shoot groups of around an inch. 3 shots for 100 yards with hand loads. I get an ocasional .5 and some of my rifles do it quite often. I do not belive the claim of a beginner shooting .5 inch groups with a stock hunting rifle. Even with a tuned varmint rig the beginner would have to do a lot of dry firing in my opinion to have good enough trigger control. My marlin 1895 45/70 is very close to an inch with 350 grain hornady flat points over IMR-4198. ...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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This sounds like one of Shootaways posts or someone with the same genetic mutations. | |||
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WOW, That's quite a statement! "Any new hunting rifle" and "a beginner" all at the same time. I would like to see this beginner and have him or her shoot for the money. Lets face it, a 1/2 inch group @100 out of a new stock hunting rifle is enough to make many of us piss ourselves. I would have to say that this is not only BS, but damn near impossible. I do have a couple of CZ's that will shoot one hole groups right out of the box. I also have a couple of Win and Brownings that will only shoot 1.25 on their best day. "Any new rifle", I don't think so! Who is this guy? | |||
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Having owned about every possible brand of rifles over the years, I've come to limit myself to high end rifles (Sauer 202, Blaser, Heym, etc.). As a rule they shoot MOA or better out of the box and need no tuning. In the long run, they're a more economic alternative to an extensively tuned and tweaked industrial rifle. André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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i thought every rifle was expected to shoot under 5inch 10shot groups at 1000yards? isnt it a cz500 big game hunter or ultimate hunter or something, in 300win mag that has a MOA to 1000 yard guarantee?? MINT | |||
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Naw, ya tink? Well, at least the statement came from the same guy that said a 7mm Remington Magnum would burn out a barrel in 70 rounds. Also that it was normal for a good barrel to throw a fourth bullet completely off the target after three shots from a clean barrel due to excessive fouling. It's clear the guy is young and has never owned a rifle. The only other explanation is...well, lets not go there. Giving such asinine statements serious discussion isn't a good idea. ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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You all pulled my leg. This was not a thread about accuracy. It is a thread about a wacky shooter who makes outrageous claims. Waste of time… | |||
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CAN shoot MOA and DOES shoot MOA are two different things. Many's the 2-3 MOA rifle that can shoot an occasional MOA group. To say you have a MOA rifle, IMHO, means one of two things: You put a target 100 yds away and shoot five five shot groups and you measure all five and take the average and it is less than 1", OR, you shoot ten shots and 100 yds and measure the group and it is less than 1". If your rifle does not fit one of the above and do it consistantly, you do not have a MOA rifle. Now, if you think you do have a MOA rifle, given the above, you go to two hundred yard and repeat, looking for 2" gps and if you have them, then you really have a MOA stick and can start to think about long range shooting. | |||
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BTW, H&K claims the PSG-1 to be a MOA rifle Their standard is 50 rounds of factory match ammo into an 80mm (3.14") circle at 300 meters. That's MOA! Try that with your Weatherby that shot one three shot group into 1" at 100 yds. | |||
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I shoot a considerable amount, three days per week and enjoy all that involves. I can normaly get a factory rifle to shoot a three shot group touching each other at 100 yards within a couple of months. If it will do that consistently and keep MOA from lthe bench at 300 yards I will be tickled. I will also be tickled if I can shoot a 8 inch group with that rifle at 350 yards in a hunting situation. I don't have any business shooting past that, figuring if I cannot get that close I should retire from hunting. It is very seldom that I will shoot past 250 yards in the field and prefer that distance and closer. This is the way I do it, for what it is worth.  Good shooting.phurley | |||
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A one MOA rifle goes a long way toward instilling shooter confidence, but it's the personal shooting skill of he hunter that puts meat in the freezer. Look at the difference in groups fired from the bench rest, then fired from position or off hand. Oooops! Suddenly a four inch group looks good! LLS  | |||
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my buddies 11 year old sons first 5 shot group w/ a centerfire rifle was 1.25" the rifle was a 20" BBL steyr SBS 308 shooting factory 168 hornady TAP. did i mention i dig steyr rifles? | |||
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Got my niece a Ruger tang safety mannlicher stocked carbine in 243 last June. I load tinkered with the Hornady 95gr SST because I had a box. 33gr of Varget puts three in 1.25" or a bit less at a hundred yards every time she shoots it...EVERY TIME. It's a meat getter. With sporter rifles that's where I sight it 2" high at 100 yards and go hunting. I own a number of rifles that will do sub-moa every time out out to 300yds including a CZ 416 Rigby for 5-shot groups. Any hunting rifle you get that will stay at moa or less to 300 yards, you keep! It's what we call a meat gun out here, because you take it to the woods and it makes meat! Rich DRSS | |||
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Around 20 years ago, there was an ambitious article done compairing around 100 "out of box" condition rifles with factory ammo and reloads (1/3 Ruger 77, 1/3 Rem 700, 1/3 Win 70). The targets were shot by the owners but the groups measures by the author. The result: out of box accuracy for a factory rifle- 1.75-2.5 inches at 100 yards. I maybe a bit fuzzy on the details, but all the rifle types averaged well above 1 MOA. Paul | |||
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Fixed it for you. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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If he is lucky to shoot the right factory load,it WILL until it gets copper fouled (3shots).Remingtons,Winchesters,Sakos,Tikkas,Steyrs,Savage,etc... all are capable of shooting the smallest groups.All he has to do is hold the cross hairs on the bulleye a squeeze the trigger. | |||
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And all I have to do to be a Millionaire is win the Lottery..........'Bout the same odds........................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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