I can't understand the attraction of the WSM.
The reduction in case capacity makes the velocity
just a small amount over a 06.

I consider the 300 Win.Mag to be the next step above the 06 so why degrade the performance.
I am going to buy one so I am interested as to why I should consider the WSM while the 300 Win.
Mag are selling at a great price used.
Please don't think I am questioning, just want to
know what to do. Your opinions are greatly appreciated.

thanks
marshall

My opinion if you wanted a 1-gun does all and didn't have an 06 and wanted a short action the wsm would be cool. I still like the 300wm better for for performance and power.

The WSM case is rimless and not belted thus it will last longer. Belted cases fail earlier at the web as they headspace on the belt. The WSM case follows the trend towards shorter low aspect ratio cartridges to enhance theoretical combustion performance.

So you have a rifle the size of a .308 Winchester but with more power than a 30/06.

So far it's been a good move by the rifle mfgs as interest and sales are up.

[ 10-15-2002, 07:32: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

The WSM being a short action with a 24" barrel vs. the 300 win mag a long action with a 26" barrel makes for a significantly lighter gun, if that matters to you. I've chronographed the 30-06, 300 wsm, and 300 win mag. Your statement that the 300 WSM velocity is just a small amount more than a 30-06 is incorrect. The WSM holds significantly more powder than the 30-06. In terms of actual performance, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between any of the three rounds in the field, certainly not between the WSM and win mag with their 50 fps (maybe) difference.

The only reason to choose the WSM over the win mag is the shorter, lighter rifle it's available in. Performance is for all practical purposes the same.

I'm with you Marshall. Or maybe I just don't get it - either way, my 300 Win "Long" does anything I want it to and is familiar and fairly standard throughout the industry. Simple. Effective.

My A-Bolt 300 weighs nothing and does anything the new, sexy shorties can. Six of one, half dozen of the other. I prefer tall and thin over short and fat, personally. Matter of taste, I guess.

Redial

In most rifles, the .300 Winchester Magnum will give you one to two more rounds in the magazine than the WSM (if this is a factor for you). The long round will usually function (chamber and extract) better than the WSM. The factory WSM's are loaded to pressures which are marginally too high in some rifles. At similar maximum working pressures, the long round will give you a measurable improvement in performance over the WSM. The long round will handle 200 grain and heavier bullets better than the WSM.

Only if a somewhat shorter (5/8 inch) rifle is important to you would the WSM offer an advantage. Given similar barrel contours and lengths, the WSM will be about 4 oz. lighter and 5/8 inch shorter.

Using appropriate loading techniques, case life will be identical.

The 300WSM and 300Win Mag are virtually the same as far as performance goes. The rifles they come in are quite a bit different. If you want a shorter lighter rifle go with the 300WSM. If you like the feel of the "full-sized" rifle get the 300 Win Mag.

The big advantage to the 300 Win Mag is that you can get factory ammo just about anywhere and there are many more loadings. There is about a 6-7 grain powder capacity difference between the two, so you are talking about around 10%. Nothing to sneeze at. I doubt very seriously that you will see any difference in case life. I routinely reload .300 Win cases 10 or more times. Never see any other case last longer.

If you want a shorter rifle, then the WSM might be a good coice. As far as a lighter rifle, there might be about 6 ounces difference between a long and short action, not significant.

Despite all of the hype, the 300 WSM won't keep up with a 300 Win.

Thanks for the information.

I am now searching for the 300 Win.Mag that is for sale because someone is selling to buy the
WSM. I appreciate the reasons for one buying one becasue it fits their profile or because it is new.

Thanks once again as it is valuable in making my decision.I must confess that I don't need one,it just that I want one.ONE CAN'T PUT A PRICE ON RECREATION

marshall

You'll hear people dog on the 30/06 ackley improved because it only offers around 150 fps over the the 30/06 springfield.But they'll run out and buy a 300 wsm that provides the same 150 fps gain if you're lucky and think they have something.

The performance of the .30 caliber cartridges discussed have case capacity as the primary factor. There are some other smaller differences also such as the operating pressure maximums in older cartridges due to old rifles (30/06), shorter cases equaling more bore length .300 WSM vrs .300 H&H for instance and the fact that rimless cases last longer at the same operating pressures as the unfortunate design of belted cases with the chamber dimensions to the shoulder of belted cases being -.000, + .010" and the cartridges being made to -.007", +.000" This unfortunate selection of a poorly designed case by lazy wildcaters have left us in this situation. Some belted cases last 10 reloadings but some like the .458 Win and .300 H&H even less! Rimless cases last for 50 or more shots if sized properly not 10 reloads as mentioned above.

The 30/06 improved can hardly managage 100 fps over the standard cartridge when loaded to the same pressures. The case capacities in grains of water are at http://www.geocites.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1221/case_cap.htm

The .300 WSM holds about 82 grains of water and the 30/06 improved holds 72.5 grains. There is the law of diminishing returns affecting larger cases but the .300 WSM is significantly larger than the 30/06 improved and very close to the belted 300 magnums.

I've got a 30/06 ackley improved,that I've chronied with 180gr partitions many times,and it averages 2930fps.out of a 24 inch barrel. This rifle isn't an exception and the test rifle nosler uses, shows slightly higher velocities then mine. All the while operating at 60,000psi. RL 22 is the powder I use.

With the ackley,you have no belt,you can fire regular cheap 06 through it and case trimming is basically a thing of the past. Not to mention any pawn shop beater can be converted and feeding problems are none exsistant.

The only guy I'm worried about is the one M. Peacock mentioned that is selling a .300 Win. Mag. to buy a .300 WSM. That makes no sense.

I bought a .300 WSM because I had been leaning towards buying a .300 Win. Mag for some years. I liked everything I read about the new .300 WSM. I saw no advantage of the .300 Win. Mag over the .300 WSM. I made the right choice for me.

Don Martin29,

Hopefully for your sake, this bullshit you post about case life for belted cases Vs rimless is to stir things up.

If not, then I don't know where you go to seek help.

Your comment about 10 loads or less from a belted case and 50 loads from a rimless case, would indicate that you are loading your rimless cases to black powder pressures.

Have you actually fired guns or is it a case of you wearing out your local library.

Mike

Good morning Mike,

I was thinking of the 30/06. I have some old Military cases that I load to full power for my working load that now shoots the 165 Corelokt. These cases are FL sized in a RCBS die.

This link is to data from Fred Huntington. You may have heard of him. www.stevespages.com/table3.html click on case life

Don Martin29,

Do you believe if a shooter buys 30/06 brass from Huntingtons, either Rem or Win, that with "full power" loads the primer pockets will stay tight for 50 shots. There is no way.

Mike

Without question the 300 win mag performs much better than the WSM with the heavier bullets starting with the 190 Hornady BTSP. Properly resized the cases have identical life span. Why would anybody want a 300 mag lighter than 8 1/2 pounds? I put a 26 inch barrel on my 300 Win mag on purpose and for what I use it for overall length is not a factor. Ammo availability is way in favor of the Win mag. Short action rounds were originally designed to function thru lever actions like the Savage 99 or semi auto's to make them lighter so why put one in a bolt action? The WSM series is just a sales hype, if they came out with a 35 WSM and put it in a 99 Savage they would have something.

For me, the logic of a 30-06 Ackley over a 300 WSM is a bit sketchy... one is a wildcat, the other isn't and doesn't require fireforming. 40 vs. 35 deg. shoulder? Big deal. Too, if I'm going to carry a LA and a 24" bbl., I'd sooner have it chambered for a 300 WM and get 3,100 fps with 180's. This illustrates we all see this differently... there's no "right" answer. Still, I've never seen 30-06 Ackley factory cartridges on anyone's shelf... even Remington is now loading the 300 WSM.

As to the 300 WSM not being as fast as the 300 WM... of course it isn't. It can't be... doesn't hold as much powder. Just like the 308 is a step-up from the 300 Savage and the 30-06 is a step-up from the 308, so the 300 WSM is a step-up from the 30-06. Of course the 300 WM is a step-up from the 300 WSM and the 300 WBY is a step-up from the 300 WM and the 300 RUM is a step-up from the 300 Wby and the 30-378 is a step-up from the 300 RUM. See? All you've got to do with any 30 cal is find the niche who's compromises you can live with and settle in there.

In my 22" bbl'd 300 WSM I'm getting 2,940 fps with 180's and RL22. 2,910 fps with H4350 and 180's. Accuracy is stellar and mine, at least, feeds fine (though it does take some getting used to compared to "standard" 06 type cases). My reason for choosing the 300 WSM over the 300 Win is I wanted a lighter, smaller SA and a round that worked efficiently in a 22" bbl. The case capacity/bore volume of the 300 WSM is about identical to the 280 Rem... not so the 300 Winnie which really needs a 24" bbl and, of course, a long action.

I backpack hunt and wanted a smaller, lighter CRF/M70 that carries enough juice for everything I hunt here in MT. The 300 WSM fit my needs perfectly... your mileage may vary, just don't tell me the 300 WSM is of no use as I know better. 8.5 lb 300 Mag? Not me... I want to get mine to 7.75 lbs "all-up."

Brad

PS, Mike I too have never heard of 50 loadings with any brass except charcol burner's.

[ 10-17-2002, 20:43: Message edited by: Brad ]

50 reloadings with non-belted cases? I must have been doing something wrong for the past 20 years or so. I guess I should have glued those primers in and kept going. I figure 10 or 12 reloads and I've got my money's worth out of the brass. I just never have had any beef with the belted cases. I've read all of these horror stories about belted cases for years, but I've never seen any of them proven out. Maybe, people just don't know how to reload.

I am duplicating the ballistics of the WSM in my 06' IMP. A Rem 700 BDL with a 24" barrel. If you don't believe me you can email me and I will send you a copy of the chrony tapes ( 180 Hornadys @ 2965fps avg 12' from the muzzle). I used to own a 300WM but after having the Imp. built I saw no need for it and it went down the road. I loved the caliber but I didn't need two rifles that are essentialy the same! I realize that the 06' Imp. it is a wildcat but it shoots where I point it and that's all that matters to me.

Elk country

Well said Brad.

I don't believe that the 30/06 AI is anything special. The thing that gets me,is all the shit talking over the years about how the gain in the AI was only marginal over the standard 06. Yet now you have guys running out and buying a 300wsm,that has the same "marginal" gain in velocity over the 06 as the AI does and you end up having to pay upwards of 30 bucks a box for the 300wsm. With the AI you can get dies easily and 30/06 ammo is available everywhere dirt cheap and I get 1-1/2 inch groups while fire forming and inch or less with 30/06 AI loads.

The only thing that the wsm line had going for it was a possible .338 or .35 caliber offering and thats gone. So you're left with a bunch of overbore offerings which suffer from the same things,every overbore cartridge suffers from and that is diminished returns in velocity.

marshall peacock: If anyone has a copy of the Speer #4 (1959)wildcat cartridges they talk about the 30-06AI being equal to the 300 H&H with certain bullets and only doing well with slow burning powder now that was before the 300 win mag and 284 came out in 1963. How many remember the talk about the short neck on the 300 and rebated on the 284. Almost 40 yrs later we still have the 300 mag and 284. I have a 300 win mag (also a 6/284)and a 300wsm and I really like the wsm case. I think it will fit a need for some and not for others. Alot don't reload so an AI would be out of the question. From what I see Win is doing a good job on getting 300 wsm ammo to the dealers alot better than rem with there new short 300. I think both the 300 win and 300 wsm will be around for a long time as with the 30-06. I have a set up so I can load at the range and I have some case for the 300 wsm that have been reloaded 4 times with wilson dies and I haven't had to resize yet. I have to say that chamber is one of the best I've ever had in a factory rifle. I'm not a big fan of win but they did a nice job on this rifle. Just my .02 worth.
Tom

no better, no worse. just different.
the big two took a chance and made sure marketing was off and running long before the guns hit the shelves. everyone at winchester did thier job and i think remington will lose unless they go to the 338/358/375 that many want and winchester is turning a blind eye at present.
you buy what looks and feels good to you. you dont need it so dont beat yourself up about it. enjoy the purchase and all it's rewards.
buy a used 300 wm and shoot the hell out of it. in 2 years that used 300wsm will be priced accordingly and you can buy one of those too if you want!
happy trails
woofer

RMK,

I have to agree with you here. But, some people, like me for example, find the 30/06 to be "boring." Why play with an 30/06 AI when you can get a WSM? Beats the heck out of me.

Model 70 .300 WSM here I come!

I just did a fast count on my fingers. I purchased my first 300 win mag in 1965 or 1966; memory faulty to a degree, but reasonably close. That's 36 or 37 years with the 300 Win. I moved up from a 30 06, purchased at age 16. I tried a 270 a season or two and still have one, but have always come back to the 300 win as my primary hunting rifle.

This year I purchased a 300 WSM. I will use it on a bull elk and mule deer in Colorado the day after tomorrow. (Think positive!) I'm in Colorado using my sister's computer to wqrite this.

On paper, the 300 WSM is as accuarate as any 300 Win I have ever had, the one exception being a Kimber the consistantly fired into one hole, if I did my part. I kick myself to this day for selling it.

Both the short and long mags are easy to load for, both being unfussy. The short mag likes RL 22, the long as well, but my last shooting in the long version was with RL 25 and the long mag seems to like that even better. No firm commitment on my part since I don't have enough data to support a conclusion and I also do not have that rifle. I fired 5000 documented rounds through it and accuracy fell off fast. So I traded.

An early snow and adverse ligh conditions kept me from running the 300 short over the chrono for more than a round. The shot that I put accross the chron logged in at 2970 with 180 grain Combined Tech BTs. The last string grouped quarter size. Few of the groups I fired were over an inch. I fired approximatley 150 rounds breaking in and sighting in before snow forced a stop. The short 300, with its 4 groove rifling, definately likes a clean bore. I haven't taken it up to my usual 21 rounds between cleaning to see how it will do with a fouled bore. It always grouped well the first 3 round out of a clean, cold bore.

No 300 Win Mag that I have ever owned, not even the Kimber, grouped well with full loads. The optimum load was always 1.5 to 2 grains below the max listed in the manuel. The last 300 win that I had shot well with 73.5 RL22 behind Barnes X 180 FB. The replacement for that sits at home unfired waiting for attention.

The 300 short also seems to shoot well with middle charges of powder.

Would the elk I shoot this year be any deader (Thinking Positive Again!) ith the 300 Win then with the 300 short? The performance between the two is conversational only. Case life? I will only reload 5 times for either, so that isn't an issue.

The lettle data I have on the 300 short indicates approximately 70 FPS less velocity than the 300 long; 2970 v 3050.

Where there is a noticable difference, is in the package. The 300 short is lighter, shorter and easier to handle. Recoil is noticably less, but still over what my 270 puts out.

I have one objection to the AIs of any kind; getting ammo on the road, should I lose mine through carelessness or theft.

Those who think the 300 short isn't much of an improvement over the 30 06, are wrong. How much of an improvement is open to debate. But my start velocity is over the top velocity of the 30 06 top velocity using the same bullets.

I'm at a stage in life where all my hunting rifles laid down and died at the same time. The last year a traded a Super Grade 300 win for an New Super Grade. Then I purchased a 300 short. And I had a 270 featherweight rebarreled to standard weight. I'm beginning to think that the new 300 win Super Grade may not have been necessary and maybe the rebarrel job as well. I prefer to be a one rifle hunter and have been over the years; well, almost. The 300 short may just be the compromise I've been looking for between the rather long 300 win package and the featherweight that never wanted to shoot tight or conistent.

I think the point here is gun sales, which in supporting our sport and the 2nd amendment has to be a good thing.

Facts are most of us passed the need for a new rifle a long time ago, but buying new ones is still fun!

It makes little difference to me what anyone hunts with as long as it gets the job done and they are responsible.

I think the comparison is just short action versus long. There are compromises each way.

I just helped a friend find his first rifle. His requirements were that he would use it for deer and elk. So we ended up choosing a 300WinMag. Just because that it can be loaded down to .30-06 velocities or stoked for any other game that walks this country. I just hope that it is not too much rifle for him, speaking in the "kicking like a mule" term.

I pick up my 300 WSM this Wednesday. I'll keep you guys updated soon on how it shoots.

Having owned all of the 30's being discussed here (actually I am substituting a 30 Gibbs for the 30-06 AI) I am convinced that all of them are completely wonderful cartridges. I only have one left at present--a Super Grade 300 Win...because I like it! That's the best reason I know to own a rifle!

Good Hunting,

Andy is a wise man.

Saludos...Frank

I think the 300 Winchester has proven itself, so I will stay with it

I'll whack this dead horse just one more time to make sure that it's really dead.

All of my Sakos chambered for belted magnums hold 4 rounds in the magazine plus 1 in the chamber. Those for the '06-based cartridges hold 5 + 1, as do most Mausers. I can recall at least twice, when shooting at trophy (but not dangerous) game, that I have anchored the animal with the last of 5 shots, and the animal might have been lost if I had been forced to stop and load a shell from my pocket. This is unusual, but sometimes such legitimate need for this number of shots does arise separate and apart from some mistake on the hunter's part (and much more frequently from some misjudgement or poor performance by the hunter).

While most WSM's are speced to hold 3 + 1, I am told that many will not function reliably if you try to stuff the third shot into the magazine.

My point is this: As most have pointed out, the ballistic difference in the WSM and the .30's on each side of it are minimal. So, do whatever advantages of a short action and marginally lighter rifle offset the lesser magazine capacity? I've never hunted Kodiaks, but would you rather face a dangerous bear with five .300 Winchester Magnums at ready or would you be as comfortable with three WSM's and a six ounce lighter rifle?

If the traditional cartridges were short and fat then the gun companies would now be pushing long skinny cartidges with guns that had larger magazine capacity

I have a 300 WM and really like the cartridge! At first I fell for the new short fat and happy cartridges Winchester was trying to sell and almost went out and bought one. To everyone out there that likes the WSM line, there's nothing wrong with that... to each his own etc..

I just think its funny that Winchester seemed that they have stumbled on to something brilliant when their velocities are close to other old standby cartridges. I really wish Remington would have immediatly fired back with re-introducing their 350 Rem Mag in their 700 Actions. I hated to see Remington answer back W/their version of the short fat and happy rounds. Anyway, I especially laughed out hard when I saw their comparison of the 270 WSM against the 270 Weatherby Magnum....please

I would say, buy the 300 WM.......

Dennis