For everyone here, I am just the messenger here and am strictly passing on some information that I thought some people who read this might be interested in.

That said....

A good friend of mine lives in Billings MT, and knows a lot of people and a lot of things going on it Billings. He is involved a lot in civics and athletics locally.

He told me tonight about a study that is being researched in Montana ( either by U of M or Montana State) about ear damage that is occurying with the use of synthetic stocks.

A lot of patients nationwide have evidently been going to their Otolaryngologists ( Ear Nose and Throat Docs) with developed hearing problems on one side, the side they are shooting from.
It is not caused evidently by the lack of ear protection at all. However the pattern was noticed that frequently the common factor was the use of sythetic stocks.

What is happening according to their research and test of stocks being fired in different calibers with tuning forks attached, is as follows:

The cheek is of course against the cheek piece. When the rifle recoils, the vibration is of course absorbed some in the shooters cheek and their jaw bone. This is sending a severe vibration to the cochlea in the ear ( eardrum).
The vibration is higher than the normal parameters that an eardrum should endure. Damage to this is what can cause hearing loss.

I use to work with hearing in surgery in the medical field years ago, so I have a point of reference on this.

The sythetic stocks evidently has no dampening abilities so passes the shock wave ( so to speak) directly to the mandable ( jaw bone), in turn to the ear canal and ear drum. Wood stocks absorb quite a bit of this shock wave that synthetics don't. Laminated stocks because of their construction are even better.

Of course this problems increases with the size of the caliber or the greater the recoil.

This is still in clinical studies, but the anticipated results are being proven in testing.
I have no idea when the study is to end or be over with, and that is all the details I have on it now.

However I thought I would pass it on, as I had heard about it since I thought some readers of this site, might have an interest in it.

If I hear of anything else on it, I will let you know ( like websites etc).

Seafire, that's interesting as all my guns have synthetic stocks. I would be surprised if the old Ruger stock was in the same category. Definitely food for thought. Perhaps something that stock makers and gun manufacturers should be doing some research on.

Seafire I am buggered as I own a .585 Nyati with a synthetic stock

Seriously It will be interesting to see what others say on this.

I find that interesting as I find that felt recoil is reduced by some synthetic stocks.That would give one the impression that synthetic stocks offer increased dampening.Then again there are many types of synthetic stocks of varying construction so the results should vary with construction.

[ 06-25-2003, 06:51: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

Remember . . . they thought cell phones caused brain cancer too, but only on the side of the brain the phone was held too!!!

Makes we wonder who is funding this research.

I have what may be a simple fix. I put one of the hollow synthetics on a rifle, but hated the "booming" whenever it bumped against anything.
(Could be that "booming" is what causes the vibrations that they say might be damaging hearing.) Looking for a way to stop, or at least diminish that booming, I tried stuffing the butt portion with those foam "peanuts". It helped a little, but nowhere near enough. I tried grinding them up. Helped a bit more, but not totally effective.
One day, while getting some needed supplies from Home Depot, I spotted a sign and display of a product called Touch and Foam. It was used as an insulation of som kind. I bought a can as it was inexpensive and flooded the hollow buttstock with the stuff. I only filled the butt to halfway as this stuff expanded like you would not believe.
The stock is a lot quieter now, as it is for all practical purposes solid. The nice thing is it did not increase the weight to any noticable degree. Later, I filled the barrel channel. When it hardened, I reinletted the barrel with it's original free float. That rifle may not be the most beautiful 30-06 around, but it's my most accurate one. Now, I plan to replace the cheapie recoil pad that came with it with a Decelerator.
I'm not sure if they make a non-expanding foam, which would be a hell of a lot easier to work with, but that stuff really quieted down the "boom" of that stock.
Just something you might want to look at.
Paul B.

Seafire... I do not hear a word you are typing... maybe they can pay me to be in their study .
I have one question... why would heavey calibers/hard kickers cause more problems? frequency and vibration oftan have nothing to do with the "power" spoken of. In fact the offending vibration(s) would have more to do with how the INDIVIDUAL rifle was bedded/contacted/bound.
ALL Rifles make noise and dammage hearing, period. I wouldnt give two shits if it was from a plastic one or a wood one (though wood is much nicer )

Maybe it's due to those loud swirly colors?!?!?

Guys,

Just passing on the info is all. However after working in the medical field and scrubbing into surgical cases for eardrum repair at the Mayo Clinic and several other research hosptials, I can see a potential for correlation here. That is why I am passing it on.

I think it has merit. ( Lars, do you mean to tell me you don't know cell phones does cause Brain Cancer?? Only on Liberals, women and teeny boppers. Ever see one being used by one of those groups, who was not driving or acting like that had some sort of brain disorder? Just food for thought).

They are connecting tuning forks to the stocks and shooting off rounds and testing the results on some sort of sizemick ( I know I fucked up that spelling:, brain cancer from cell phone use)
testing graph.

Just passing it on. There are also some people who believe in aliens, but I would just be passing that one also.

seafire

For what it is worth.

In Australia we have a stock made of aluminium. It is basically the profile of the old Rem 40X stocks but it is a skeleton in the butt and forend. The stocks will often "ring" when you shoot.

The first one I had was about 1990 and I had two 220 Swift barrels, a 243 barrel and a 270 barrel for it. Over a period of about 3 weeks I fired a lot of shots which was about evenly split between the rifle range and a shooting trip. I also had on the shooting trip a Model 70 in 300 Win and a Model 70 in 375 H&H.

A couple of weeks after I returned from the shooting trip I took the 300 Win to the range and noticed that my ears got sore after about 20 shots (with muffs on). The problem has continued to this day with any of the calibres like 300 mags or 270 Win with 100 grain bullets. In 375 there is no problem and ditto for 416, 458.

I continued to use the aluminium stocks with different actions and calibres although did not shoot as many shots as when I firts got one. The amount of shooting I did when I first got an aluminium stock was equaled and exceeded on plenty of previous times with calibres ranging from 22/250, 243, 6mm/06, 257 Magnum and up through to the 375. I had also previously donea lot of shooting with the 460 Wby and the older Pendleton Dekicker.

Now that you have mentioned this I have noticed that the bench shooters at our range are in my opinion both deaf and noise sensitive especially given the small 6mm PPC and the fact that they really shoot that many shots. But they are all using fibreglass or aluminium stocks.

So who knows, there might be something it.

If there is something in it then it would be interesting to see if there is any connection between calibres being used and fibreglass stocks. I am thinking here that calibre will have an influence from both the point of view of the "pitch" of the blast and also the number ofd shots that will be fired in testing etc.

Mike

Fact is that sound is a wave that passes through material. Thusly sound reaches the ear both through the ear'ole and the skull.

Noise induced hearing loss (NIHL) is a cumulative thing. Lots of shooting can cause problems even if the shooter wears muffs or muffs and plugs due to the passage of sound through the skull.

This is why the Army limits the firing of the really loud weapons eg anti tank - they noticed hearing problems with soldiers shooting them even though they were wearing double protection.

Another problem that came to light was the old army muffs had a metal headband which vibrated against the skull and propagated the sound. Based on this I can understand why there could be some concern.

I have often wondered if this is happening. I shoot right-handed and my hearing is noticibly better in my left ear. I wonder if the Hogue rubber stocks would eliminate/reduce this. How about a leather cheek patch?
Fred in Colorado

Could be that your hearing loss is more likely due to the loud pipes and the roar of the 36" Super Swampers on your jacked up redneck truck

Don't laught at this theory;

About 3 years ago I got involved with a very pretty lady. and for many weekend's I told my wife I was shopping. When in fact my honey and I were at the range. I was just have'n fun shoot'n her at long range: 4 and 500 yard targets. She had a hollow sythentic stock which was skin tight... WOW... What a babe the 338 is....

After a couple of w/e 'shooting' her, I started getting dizzy spell's. To the point of vomitting and not being able to stand up or move quickly from a dead stop.

Apparently in the ear we have what is referred to 'hearing stones' and these can get dislodged and a float in the hearing fluid. These stones get dislodged from a blow to the head, or illness and they call this VERTIGO.

Well, I had never been smacked up side the head, have never been seriously ill. But I did then but not now, shoot a lot.

When I was at the hearing specialist I had to lay on one side then do rapid movement's of a sort which I do not remember. The doc's could tell which ear was the most EFFECT/AFFECTED side by watching my eyes: I would get Rapid Eye Movement(REM) which ususally occurs while sleeping after doing these movement's.

Guess what I shoot right handed, my right ear, my shooting ear was the most critical.

I have not shot my babe for a longt time, no more dizzy spell's, no more vomitting.

I had never experienced anything like this during my 40 years of shooting...the only common element in the calibers I shoot: a synthetic stock.

For the last 2-years I have been shooting rifles with Walnut stock's...everyting has been fine!

So just maybe there is merit here...about vibration being strong enough and often enough to dislodge these 'stones'

[ 06-28-2003, 05:25: Message edited by: beltloop ]

Beltloop-Were your synthetic stocks molded or were they quality fibreglass stocks?.There are huge differences in synthetic stock construction which many people fail to recognize yet they do seen to notice the difference between turkish walnut and cheap birch.

A Hollow Black synthetic...

Beltloop,

Interesting story.

When you have these little crystals (otoliths) floating around in your posterior semicircular canal (balance part of inner ear),you have Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo. Youv move a certain way,and they trigger the balance nerve and bang, you are dizzy for 2-3 minutes and your eyes rotate (rotary nystagmus). It is rare to actually vomit, and if it lasts over 5 minutes, you have to think of something else. If it bothers you again, call your local ENT's and find one that does the Epley Manuever. It is a way to tilt you around and the crystals fall into an area that they can't stimulate the balance nerve and 90% + of patients are cured in 1-2 office visits (no surgery!)

There maybe something to this synthetic stock theory as I just suffered severe right ear damage this last winter shooting my first such stock. It was a as issued Winchester injection molded one that comes with the SS WSM's.

But this does not matter as much as just doing a lot more than I have been and being more careful. I will continue to shoot plastic stocks and I have another on order.

What I should have done is to get far better ear protection. Those standard ear muffs are very thick yet only have a 1/4" or so of the cheapest looking foam in them. The thickness of the muff causes the one that touches the stock to lift off of your face/ear.

Now I am using a plug in my right ear and also the amplified R2000 ear muffs. I am trying various plugs and I must have a half dozen different kinds here and instead of being cheap about it, as I was, now I am spending whatever it takes to have the best.

A hearing aid won't even work if your deaf anyway and they cost thousands.

That Remington R2000 muff that I got from DNR for $95 is a pretty good item. It controls the noise very well yet is far thinner.

I get my hearing tested at work every year. After 20 years of shooting hundreds of rounds a year out of synthetic stocked magnums my hearing is still well above average with no changes seen.

Warning to all makers of synthetic stocks: Prepare yourselves for a spate of class-action lawsuits by predatory trial lawyers whose only concern is "for the children." You have been warned.

Seafire,
An interesting theory, and the stuff I like to see on these forums. Thanks for posting it.
Changing the different types of marerials that the vibration frequencies must travel through should reduce this problem. For example, an aluminum pillar bedded stock means that the vibration must transfer between the aluminum block and the synthetic stock. It will no doubt lose some of its energy in the process. The leather cheek piece mentioned earlier should also help.