I bought a very interesting magazine. The leacy of Lever guns. Put Out by Rifle's.
Lots of good articles there it's 5.99 well spent.
There is an article by Phil Shoemaker called lever actions in 20th century Alaska.
In it he mentions his son Taj guiding for sheep caribu and GRIZLY carying a savage 99 in 300 savage loaed with 165 grain partitions over 38 grains of varget, MV 2400 !
I want to read about it if he ever used that load on a big angry bear !
But I tell you a somwhat similer load I think I might use.
If a guy had one of the browning 1895 replica's in 30,06 and loaded some 220 grain round nose bullets at about 2500.
I think that would be a much better load.
The SD on that bullet is right at 310 if I remember corectly.
I would feel better with a 45/70 or a .338 win.
But a 300 savage ? I supose if a guy was real good and could group 3 into the vitals real quick.
But I think i would pass on that opertunity.
He must be darned good !
...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
There is an article by Phil Shoemaker called "Lever Actions in Twenty-first Century Alaska."
In it he mentions his son Taj guiding for sheep, caribou and GRIZZLY carrying a Savage 99 in .300 Savage loaded with 165 grain Partitions over 38 grains of Varget, MV 2400 !
I want to read about it if he ever used that load on a big, angry bear!

Phil Shoemaker corresponds on the 24hourcampfire site and may answer your question directly if you care to ask.

Here's a link to that site for a topical post:

www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthre...99_300_S#Post3306577

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
...Phil Shoemaker ... mentions his son Taj guiding for sheep caribu and GRIZLY carying a savage 99 in 300 savage loaed with 165 grain partitions over 38 grains of varget, MV 2400 ! ...

Hey Thomas, I had a 300Sav M99 for a few years and it was a fine Deer cartridge. I primarily used 150gr bullets in it and might have tried some 165gr ones, but I just do not remember.

I think Mr. Shoemaker posts here as "458Win".

But, to answer your question, I'd not Hunt large Bears with a 300Sav M99. The problems I see, in addition to a severe lack of Power, are the Cases Separations at the Pressure Ring. This is due to the flexing created by the M99's Rear Lock-Up. If a person only used new cases for Hunting, then the Case Separations are normally not an issue. But, then you still have the reduced Power which does not interest me.

When things go bad, I'd want more Power than the 300Sav cartridge and any Load it can handle.

Since I'm into this thread, I'd also say the concept is a bad one to spread to the general public. It seems the current trend is to promote Marginal and Inadequate Cartridges to the general public. Perhaps it is an attempt to get more people to go Hunting who won't take the time to become accustomed to a proper cartridge for the Game being Hunted. Or perhaps it is a fad of seeing who can go the smallest. However, it does nothing to make the writer or their followers look good to people who spend lots of time afield.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Evidentally, Taj can shoot!!!

Edit to add: In the heat of battle...

I'm gonna have to agree with HC. I've never hunted any sort of bear but to take a note from the African PHs, they tend to go over gunned as when things go bad, they go very bad and it is usually up close and very personal.
I've no doubt that a .300 Savage would kill a bear but would the bear get the message in time?
Doesn't Phil Shoemaker carry something on the order of a .458?

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:

If a guy had one of the browning 1895 replica's in 30,06 and loaded some 220 grain round nose bullets at about 2500.

I supose if a guy was real good and could group 3 into the vitals real quick.
--------

I have a 3rd gen 1895 .405 Win. that is extremely accurate and shootable.

A friend in AK has a takedown with 30-06 and a .411 Hawk barrel that he dearly loves.

His dearly departed Dad did carry a 99 in .300 for years, later switching to one in .358.

I beleve both MR Shomaker and his sone now have Model 86s chamberd for the wildcat .475 Turnbill.
Keeping in mind the article was about lever actions.
And I did post on this topic on 24HR.
Howerver i think I made the mistake of not puting it in question form.
and as of last (wed) had recieved no replies...tj3006

TJ. I haven't tried 220 gr. bullets yet in my 1895 Browning but it is an inrigueing idea. I bought it ro rebore to a .35 Whelen but other projects keep getting in the way. My biggest problem with that rifle is I'd have to put a eeiver sight on the gun as the only way to get a scope on it is go the scout route. Might mess up the balance a bit. Not sure I can see the sights, even with a peep sight.
Paul B.

Put the Providence Tool sight on mine.

Actually have fired a scout setup by ZHat--
balance is great.

BTW, they re-bore

http://www.z-hat.com/Rebore.htm

I have no doubt at all the .300 Savage would kill even the biggest bears very, very dead, quite reliably.

However, I have considerable doubt about two things with using that rifle for big bears.

1. Will it absolutely reliably kill them quickly enough to save my skin at truly close quarters every time? (I don't want to lose my skin even once.)

2. Will I subconciously be prone to "bear fever" (version of "buck fever") knowing that I am carrying a really good deer gun after something that kills and eats more deer than I can ever hope to?

I have hunted big bear country carrying a 7x57 loaded with 139 gr. Hornadys...but only my first year there...and was real glad I didn't have to use it on anything except moose, which is what I was after.

The next couple of years I carried an '06 with 200 gr. NPs, then I switched to a .358 Norma Mag, a .450 Ackley Mag, a .450 double, then a .470 double. Sure didn't need the last three of that series, but definitely felt more confident tromping around in the dense bush with any one of them.

I have never seen a grizly except at the zoo.
And I am not knockin this guy , But to me a serious big bear stopper in a lever would prbably be a 45/70 marlin.
There are some other i would consider.
The .358 winchester would be decnt choice, But I like more poer than that...tj3006

I don't remember who said it. Carry the biggest gun, you can shoot accurately.

While I believe in using A "gun" that is adequate, or MORE SO, for the game I hunt, IS there a much greater difference from a 300 WBY, vs a 165NP from a 300 Savage, at typical brown bear distance, through the heart???

As I posted, anything I have to say is pure conjecture but I don't think I'd be hunting a grizzly with a 300Wby and if I were, it wouldn't be loaded with 165NPs. It would be loaded with a heavy for calibre bullet with a good solid construction. Not one designed to melt away half it heft on impact. Not that I don't think the NP isn't a great bullet but I'd want a bullet that would come out the other side of the bear still in one piece perhaps leaving a hole you could drop a soccor ball in.
And if I had a brown bear close enough to smell his fetid breath, as J Oconnor often did, I don't know that I could assuredly hit him in the heart.

I just acquired a M94 BB in 356 Win. that I plan to use while backpacking. Loaded with 200-250 grainers should work well.

Lou

I did'nt read the print TJ was talking about but did'nt he ask if Taj had guided for the big coastal bears with the savage rather than saying he did?
Looking back on the origianal post he did mention Grizzly but for those unfamiliar a interior grizz is nothing cmpared to a coastal brown bear.

As far as the mod 95 or moderen repo's in 30-06 loaded with 220 gr. bullets I'd say good idea but more than a hundered years old.

The first chambering of the o6 in a model 95 Winchester was the predicesser to the 06, the 30-03 which the early sprinfield rifles were chambered in.

The Army saw fit to change from the 220 gr. bullet in the service rifle after the Germans changed the bullet weight in the 8x57 from 196gr. to 150 with a spitzter bullet. At that time the us army switched from 220 gr in the 30-03 to a lighter spitzter bullet and renamed the round 30-06. I think they also shortened the neck a little.

Teddy Rosevelt carried both sprinfield rifles and Winchester Model 95's on his famus 1909 safari through Tanzania chambered for both 30-06 and the 03 cartridge so he could have the choice of bullet weight.

AK,
The article said he did use the savage .300 while guiding for mose caribu and grizly.
It would be really bad form for me to say any thing to strongly against this practice, being a guy who has never hunted a grizly,
My point is that there are better tools for the job.
It just seems to me that as a guide, yo might be asked to put down a wounder grizly in a hurry.
For that keeping in mind this article was about lever actions, I would go with somthing else.
45/70 .358 winchester if you want to stay with the 99 savage, or that 220 grain RN in the 06, would be a better choice.
Of course there ar a zillion bolt action rounds that would be better yet.
...tj3006

A guide shoots only in an emergency situation.

If the kid does that, I hope Phil has plenty of life insurance on him, and even more liability insurance to cover the legal fallout. I would not let anybody in my hunting camp that thinks the 300 Savage is a charge stopper. The kid must have a set about the size of bowling balls!!

Rich