A Great article in the new Handloader magazine, by John Barnsness , Has me thinking about another .308. I have been thinking of a new rifle probably a .270 but it could be just about anything. I have had lots of .308s over the years, lets see a rare 760 carbine, a styer a couple model 7s a 99, and I currantly have a pre 64 featherweight.
It is a great deer round and at the risk of being called stupid ignorant crazy ugly and a few other things, I will say out to 400 yards
is as likly as anything to kill your buck.
And at 250 to 300 a great choice for elk too.
A really acurate .308 like a sako or a Kimber just might take a place next to my old featherweight in my safe in the next couple weeks. By the way my model 70 shoots prety well but I have the same rifle in 30,06 and it shoots a little better.
Funny thing about my .308 is that it does'nt like varget or RL-15, the two powders I like best for the round, but when I got some IMR.4064
it suddenly became a very good shooter. mabye I should just put a better scope on mine and play with a few more loads, we all get so pumped about flatt shooting rounds like the .270 , but I have killed deer with a 280, a 300 win a 30,06 a .257 roberts,as well as a .308 and I am sure the .308 would have taken them all with the same hold and point of impact would not have changed more than an inch or so. ...tj3006

TJ. If you ever get a chance to try the 270 Wby Mag, you'll find a fantastic, flat shooting caliber. I have two rifles in it and although I haven't fired the second (a Winnie), the Weatherby Euromark is fantastic. Might put you back on the 270 track. I own a couple of 308s also so don't get the impression I'm putting that caliber down. I'm just saying, if you want fast, flat and far, try the 270 Wby.

The 270 WSM woukd be much better....same bal. as the 270 Weatherby and more accurate and cheaper to reload.

I too a fan of the 308 Win!

quote:

Originally posted by Alaska Bush Man:
The 270 WSM woukd be much better....same bal. as the 270 Weatherby and more accurate and cheaper to reload.

I too a fan of the 308 Win!

I disagree. There is no way the 270 WSM will make 3350FPS with 140 grain X bullets. I was never a 270 fan and thought the Weatherby round a ballistic twin of the 7 Remington magnum, but I was wrong. Roy's 270 is impressive.

I am sure that the .270 weatherby is a flatt shooter, But my point in bringing up the .270 win was that for deer hunting out to 400 yards, witch is a hell of a long shot a .308 zeroed at 200 is about 19 inches low. and a 270 is about 17.5. a difference of about 1.5 inches and my point being thats pety much nothing, so for deer hunting a .308 is plenty flat enough. I have a 7mm STW if I shot a 140 grain tripple shock at about 3400, it would probably be about the equal of the fine wetherby round and with a 175 grain a hell of a long range Elk rifle, But frankly I can't imjine me shooting at game that far, I usualy hunt Elk with a 45/70 even though I have a .338 and a whelen and the STW. I have missed more deer du to not being quick enough than not getting in range... ...tj3006

TJ,

I agree that "flat-shooting" doesn't mean much. The difference in trajectory is pretty meaningless unless you're willing to take shots at ranges that I am not. My aiming error is greater than the trajectory error!

I recently bought my first 30-06 in forty years, but it wasn't because it superior ballistically to the .308. I bought it because I wanted a true "world cartridge," for which I could find cartridges in any backwoods gas station and yurt anywhere. If the .308 tickles you, I'd say go for it.

Jaywalker

Of all the caliber's I've used from .223 on up, the .308 win has allways been the poorest performer on game

Thomas Jones,

I look at the rifle first. There are many good cartridges and the 308 is among the best.

For a very long time the 30-06 and 358 Win served me well but as I aged I wanted lighter rifles and the 308 is a path of least resistance.

My answer would be the same if a .277" bore was considered and that's why a 270 WSM is favored by me. The Kimber 8400 Montana stands out, in my view, as a magnum platform.

I have been thru quite a bit of gun buying/building in the last few years. When I got the Montana in 308 I smiled and was satisfied. Maybe you don't want a rifle that light yet but take a look at one so you have that frame of referance.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Of all the caliber's I've used from .223 on up, the .308 win has allways been the poorest performer on game

Funny, I have found the .308 to be an excellent cartrige for deer sized game. What problems have you had?

A kimber in .308 would be a grat rifle, I probably would not get a Montana version, just prefer a prety piece of walnut , I have a rifle that is even lighter than the Kimber,s in my little Ruger 77 MK 2 in .257 Roberts. its clearly not the rifle the Kimber is, I have a load with a 100 grain tripple shock that scoots at over 3100, and is just about a MOA load. It is my favorite deer rifle at the moment.
i also have had a couple Model 7s.
So far I don't mind carying a fairly stout rifle when Elk hunting but you really do not need that much power to hunt deer so a smaller rifle is jut fine. Right now i think the option of just getting a nice rifle in any caliber .257 to say .358 that I like is a good way to go. Hell I could even end up with a new Guitar...tj3006

MajorCal,

Not to start a match, but you must be
choosing poorly in .308 guns or ammo.

I purchased a Savage Striker, in .308 Win, as
my first .308. I chose that cartridge, because
the larger bore diameter(vs .243 or 7-08) suffered
less velocity loss in the 14" barrel. My first
load developed for the Striker was a 130 gr.
Barnes XBT load, driven by a max load of W748.
On paper this load is sub MOA accurate, and
it flat drops northern whitetails like Thor's
Hammer. The first deer I shot with it, had
a 3-4" hole under the hide, on the entrance
side, and a 1" tumbling slug type hole on
the far side. Since that deer, I have shot two
more, and all have been bang flop, or bang flip.
Anyway, when it came time to switch semi-auto
brush country deer rifles, my 7400, in .270 Win,
was sold, and replaced with a BAR Stalker, in
you guessed it, .308 Win. I have a Tikka, in
.25-06 Rem, for my open country deer rifle,
and it puts a hurt on deer, but I can't say
that it piles them up any better than the .308 Win.
It just gets there in a straighter line

To the original discussion, yes, I am impressed
with the .308 Win, and I have a number of rifles
chambered in other cartridges. The .308 Win, is
easy to find accurate loads for, and it works for
everything from low volume varmint/predator
hunting, to elk, and black bear. I just wonder
why it took me 40 some years to find it

Squeeze

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Of all the caliber's I've used from .223 on up, the .308 win has allways been the poorest performer on game

The .30-06 is my favorite hunting round. The last few years while I've been building a new custom -06 I've used a .308. Never really had much interest in the .308, that is, until I started using one.

Factory loads usually equal factory .30-06 loads.

I find that statement hard to believe unless the game & loads were improperly matched. Or shot placement was poor.

Some of you guy,s really aught to read the Article in hand loader, its well writen and it touches on a lot of the same things about it being overlooked.
I ia somewhat suprising that major caliber has had bad luck with the cartridge on game, but he does not call it a bad round , I bet he realizes its a good round and he has just had bad luck.
In my own experene, I have never had a .270 that was accurate. just my experience, I know the .270 is an accurate round so i am willing to try another based on what others have experenced...tj3006

I read JB's article and it was prempted by the discussion of the 308 on 24 hr where it was run up the flag pole and back down and pronounced good.

The article may have been written first what with lead times.

There was a good article a few years ago on the 308 in Africa. The site www.findarticles.com is where it is or at least was.

We go back and forth between enough gun and too much gun and some flirt with mini gun.

what's the problem with the .308?....My savage 99 was a fabulous rifle and killed deer just fine. I wouldn't call it a 400 yard gun but neither is the .30-06 IMO.

Personally I now prefer the necked down versions in 7-08 and 260 but if all I had today was a .308 I'd not feel undergunned for any big game on the planet less the dangerous variety.

Load it up with 165 frain premium bullets and take it hunting anything you want.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
I disagree. There is no way the 270 WSM will make 3350FPS with 140 grain X bullets. I was never a 270 fan and thought the Weatherby round a ballistic twin of the 7 Remington magnum, but I was wrong. Roy's 270 is impressive.

Buckshot, you can disagree but you are probably wrong. Federal loads both the WSM and Roy with the same bullets and in every case the WSM is faster, and that out of a shorter barrel.
John Barsness in the March 06 "Rifle" magazine on page 28 chrono'd a new Nosler 48 in 270 WSM and got the following velocities:

130 Federal solid base.......3,413
130 Federal ballistice tip...3,436
140 Federal Accubond.........3,290

note that these are actual measured velocities they list them as a little slower. But in a 24" barrel 3,290 and a 140gr bullet might be up to 100fps faster in a 26" barrel like the Roy uses.
The 270 Weatherby may indeed be an impressive cartridge but the WSM is it's equal or superior in at least these examples................DJ

My 30-06 is a 500 yard rifle, antelope to elk... ya just have to pick your projectile.

The 308 is certainly as good to at least 400 yards. I'm absolutely 100% certain I could use the 308 here in MT on everything for the rest of my life and never find it wanting. Were there a problem I'm convinced the fault would lay with me.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Of all the caliber's I've used from .223 on up, the .308 win has allways been the poorest performer on game

I've seen a lot of comments on many subjects, but rarely do I differ in my observations with one as much as this one. Like it or not the 7.62 X 51 is a world cartridge in today's world. I for one have a love, passion, and respect relationship with it.

308Sako, "Major Caliber" repeats this line every time the subject of the 308 arises... it's been a broken record of his since he's been here. He's unwittingly made a comment about his abilities and I just ignore him.

PS, where in the Berkshires? A simply beautiful part of the world...

I'd never try and steer ya in a direction you didn't want to go, TJ. The 308 is an excellent round. Every one has their favorites just like rifle brands. Alhough I only hunted once using a 308, it did what it was supposed to. With most of my white tail hunting only to 125yds, I mostly use a 30/06. This year though I worked a trade for a Sako manlicher in 308 and will use it for fall white tail. If you've got your mind set, go for it. Worst case is you trade out in a couple years for something different if the 308 doesn't work for ya.

Actually the Berkshires are so beautiful that if I told you I'd have to .... you! It's one of the great secrets of the eastern world.

Truth be known however, they begin about 100 miles north north east of NYC! It is dairy & cattle & arabian horse country and small communities with honest to gosh forrests and hills... shoot you are making me home sick.



This squirrel on the bird feeder is a resident of our neighborhood, along with too many whitetails and turkeys etc...

Now as to Major Caliber's comments and what you infered from them... I heartly agree to the obvious.

I bought my first centerfire rifle in 1975 a 308 Win. a lot of guns have come and gone over the years but it's still in my safe.

It likes IMR4064 too, with the 165 grain Hornady BTSP.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Of all the caliber's I've used from .223 on up, the .308 win has allways been the poorest performer on game

I think you actually have to hit the game before they will die.

Well,
i shoulf have the cash in my pocket tommorow,
I am planning to see what is in a couple shops don'w in salem(oregons capital 50 miles south of Portland) Tommorow, who know what I might find and or buy. I got the word from a guy at work that he can get me a CZ 550 American in .270 for 525.00, He works part time for a Gun dealer hawk shop) and he can have it to me in a couple days. Man I bet that would make a hell of a deer rifle ,with a 3X10 Burris signiture select, So would a .308 but I have a decent one allready.
Shoot if I find a good enough deal i could end up with just about any thing ! ...tj3006
I

I think the 308 is a great round also. Easy to shoot cheap to load for and I found it to work fine for game. Of course I only used mine to take a moose and a black bear.

Sako, I've walked the Appalachian Trail through all of Massachucets so I'm somewhat familiar. Don't take this wrong, but I can't fathom living in Vegas over western Mass!

BTW, that's a real pig in the backyard!

Brad, the winter thing is for the wife and a bit for my older bones. I dearly miss the quiet of the country, but not the snow. Actually, the "pig" is in the front/side yard and this was in the backyard...

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
A Great article in the new Handloader magazine, by John Barnsness , Has me thinking about another .308.....

Yeh I think its titled something like "the great 308win"

go back a few years in issues and you will find an article where Barnsness wrote about " Why he hates the .308win"

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Buckshot, you can disagree but you are probably wrong. Federal loads both the WSM and Roy with the same bullets and in every case the WSM is faster, and that out of a shorter barrel.
John Barsness in the March 06 "Rifle" magazine on page 28 chrono'd a new Nosler 48 in 270 WSM and got the following velocities:

130 Federal solid base.......3,413
130 Federal ballistice tip...3,436
140 Federal Accubond.........3,290

note that these are actual measured velocities they list them as a little slower. But in a 24" barrel 3,290 and a 140gr bullet might be up to 100fps faster in a 26" barrel like the Roy uses.
The 270 Weatherby may indeed be an impressive cartridge but the WSM is it's equal or superior in at least these examples................DJ

I admit I've never worked with the 270 WSM, but I know those that underestimate the 270 Weatherby have never seriously worked with it. Paper ballistics are just that -paper. Feed Roy's 270 some IMR 7828 and it will run like a scalded dog far exceeding what most books claim it is capable of; something substantiated by my chronograph, not statistics from a book. My 270 Weatherby would drive 140 grain X bullets 3350FPS all day long, and was capable of more if I would have been willing to sacrifice brass life. I'm sure the WSMs will fall even further behind with the heavier 150/160 grain bullets.
I'll also admit I'm biased against the 270 in general and the WSMs in particular. Experience has taught me that 130 grain bullets make big holes. I never bothered with heavy bullets in this calibre thinking it suitable as a deer and antelope calibre only, that was untill I worked with the Weatherby round. 160 grain partitions can ruin any elks day. As for the WSMs, I'll save the short & sassy rounds for the bench rest boys.
Regarding the topic of this thread, I only have one rifle chambered in 308, a K98, but I like it.

Ha, nice buck friend. Lot's of green in the trees... I'm thinking late September?

I don't hunt anymore, can't get up in the morning, not interested in killing something that I don't eat. But I target shoot. Every weekend if I could.

The 308 used to be the most common round on the firing line. It still is an excellent target round. It is real easy to load MOA ammunition with a wide bunch of bullets and powders. And it does not kick bad.

I know of one game guide who trys to get his clients to use his "Loaner" 308. The basic reason is too many clients bring these Magnum Cannons, have developed massive flinches, hit the animal in poor location, and they spend the rest of the day tracking a suffering animal. Cannon or not, the guide gets his clients close to the game, tells where to hit, if the client is using the 308, they usually hit the vital spot, and the day is done.

P.S. You cannot compensate for poor marksmanship by using a Magnum. People should practice more, lets say once a month. At least fifty rounds. With something.

Mid October, our bow season opens Oct 15th... notice the enormous number of fresh fallen Oak and Beech and Maple leaves on the ground as well?

So ya still haven't told me the general area you're in... give me a hint (grin). I spent a night on Mt. Everett hiking the AT. The landscape of New England is so quaint and gentle compared to Montana, but I like it... it's on a more "human" scale... I doubt I could afford the taxes though!

I'm also not sure I could give up elk hunting! since we're posting pic's, heres this year's bull for your edification... not a 308, but 30-06... the 308 would certainly have worked equally wel:

Funny, my longest shots at a target have been with the .308 (1,600 yards), so accuracy is not a problem. The longest sniper hit with a .308 is 1250 yrds +/-, so lange rang performance is not a problem. It uses all of the high uality bullets and drives them at near 30-06 velocities (some actually shoot faster. Makes you wonder where it doesn't perform on game? I guess if your used to shooting through 40 yards of dirt before you hit the animal, maybe the .308 is not your cup of tea...

John

Brad, well done on a beautiful bull. You don't find those lovelies in my area... Which is sort of where the NY, MA, & CT boundries abut. But slightly north of there, a days long walk.

Brad,

I also wish to congratulate you on that fabulous bull elk.

As to the Berkshires its pretty land but driveover country for me as there is no rifle hunting there for big game allowed! It's not much further to VT and that's where everybody used to go. What with the decline in VT hunting however my observations are ones that were on target yesteryear.

Sav-99, In NY the rifle is King and quite allowed! Heck I occasionally use a .375 H&H just for the jollies of it... using enough gun.

For Mass. residents hunting in NY yes but CT guys find that Dutchess County never allowed rifles. I see that the regs have improved however and some counties have opened for rifles in NY that were formerly shotgun only.

I have some good slug guns and I have hunted in Sandisfield, MA for deer with them but I much prefer to carry a rifle.

Map

For years we used to drive from CT to the Eastern NY border to hunt chucks but they are all gone now. The farms are still there but no chucks and no summer hunting of coyotes either in NY. On top of that we can't bring a deer back to CT now from NY what with CWD being found there.

quote:

Originally posted by NEJack:

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Of all the caliber's I've used from .223 on up, the .308 win has allways been the poorest performer on game

Funny, I have found the .308 to be an excellent cartrige for deer sized game. What problems have you had?

The .308 is the only caliber I've used that has NEVER dropped anything in it's tracks, that's everthing from rabbit's, deer. and hogs.

It isn't the .308 which is failing here MC... try placement, something the .308 is particularly good at. Opinions are like noses, we all have them.