I want to know what would be your preferred choice for target shooting up to 250 yards and some hunting, mostly between the following options:

Remington 700 BDL
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_r...00/model_700_BDL.asp

Sako 75 Hunter
http://www.sako.fi/sako75_hunter.html

Sako 75 Deluxe
http://www.sako.fi/sako75_deluxe.html

Antonio Zoli AZ1900 Lux
http://www.zoli.it/az1900lux.php

Mauser M 03
http://www.mauserwaffen.de/index.php?id=39&lang=en

Mauser M 98
http://www.mauserwaffen.de/index.php?id=37&lang=en

CZ 550 LUX
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=3&ids=10&idz=39&lang=en

CZ 550 SCANDINAVIA
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=3&ids=10&idz=40&lang=en

Izhmash Dragunov SVD
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/svd.shtml

Izhmash Dragunov Tigr
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml

I'd also like to know whether you consider a Zeiss 3-9x40 Conquest scope good optics for the rifle. Moreover, what reticle? MilDot or some kind of ballistic+rangefinder plex?

I know not all options are available everywhere.

My initial concept is:

-bolt action (but Dragunov)
-lightweight (wood stocked) 7 lb ballpark w/o scope.
-min. mag. capacity 5 rnd. Preferrably fixed mag with hinged floor.
-3-position safety (fire; free bolt and secure trigger; everything locked)
-iron sights plus fixed or removable scope
-scope w/ some kind of "mildot", fixed 4x or variable 3-9x40
-ready for slings
-availability and cost of spare parts. The less needed the better!
-fluted barrel preferred (inconvenients?)
-blued metallic parts (stainless wears faster? less resilient?)
-good crisp trigger. set up possibility appreciated.

Hello,
Your work scope/description of the rifle you are after would lead one to go for the Rem 700 VSSF action (varmint, ss action and barrel, fluted and shortened to 24") 308 or 260 caliber, modified bolt shroud to take the side swing, 3 pos. safety, Jewell Trigger, lightened walnut stock by Master Class Stocks, turn barrel muzzle to accept front sight barrel band, add Lipske micrometer sight base system, add Picatinny rail system, Leupold 4.5X14 1" VX3 scope, no mil dots, range finders, etc, just plain duplex system is fine.

Weight limit you have is tough for the barreled action alone will come in at something near 7 lbs, 4.5lb barrel plus 2 lb plus action weght??, adds up quick. If weight criteria is absolute, go with the Titanium Rem 700 action. Cost is beginning to rise sharply here!! Barreled action, trigger, stock, sights, swivels/sling, etc. will put you over the 2500.00 mark and probably closer to the 3000 mark. Stock and sight system will be in the 1600-1700 range alone and then add for the action/barrel/trigger, plus smith work and bingo you are there.
The end result would be a Titanium Rem. 700 w/ Jewell trigger, Master Class first class stock, quality optics and mount system, pretty much any caliber desired, but did forget to add for the target metalic sights. Add some 400-600 for those little items. Warner Micrometer will put you over 400 and Anshutz globe plus attachments over 200.00

Might want to buy a Rem. 700PSS, Leupold scope and few mods and do it all for about 1900.00 Good luck.

I've narrowed my options a tiny bit:

Sako 75 Hunter
http://www.sako.fi/sako75_hunter.html

Mauser M 03
http://www.mauserwaffen.de/index.php?id=39&lang=en

Mauser M 98
http://www.mauserwaffen.de/index.php?id=37&lang=en

CZ 550 SCANDINAVIA
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&id...idz=40&lang=en


I'd also like to know whether you consider a Zeiss 3-9x40 Conquest scope good optics for the rifle. Moreover, what reticle? MilDot or some kind of ballistic+rangefinder plex?


My initial concept is:

-bolt action in 308W
-lightweight (wood stocked) 7 lb ballpark w/o scope.
-min. mag. capacity 5 rnd. Preferrably fixed mag with hinged floor.
-3-position safety (fire; free bolt and secure trigger; everything locked)
-iron sights plus fixed or removable scope
-scope w/ some kind of "mildot", fixed 4x or variable 3-9x40
-ready for slings
-availability and cost of spare parts. The less needed the better!
-fluted barrel preferred (inconvenients?)
-blued metallic parts (stainless wears faster? less resilient?)
-good crisp trigger. set up possibility appreciated.

If "target shooting" means a formal sport, rules limit what you can use and other competitors will tell you what works best. If you mean informal shooting at targets, get the CZ. They are accurate, inexpensive and you will probably never need spare parts. Second choice would be a stainless version of the Sako. Third would be the Mauser, but that's because in the US, the Mauser goes for nearly $10,000 USD. If money were no object, the Mauser would be my first choice.

I would take the 308 over the 7.62x54 because it fits a bit better into a bolt-action rifle, but depending on where you live the caliber could be a problem. Are you in Europe? What is your budget? How much experience do you have? Tell us more.


Okie John

Cote,

Perhaps you are in France? If thats the case I hesitate to suggest a brand of rifle as I don't know your budget or the actual prices that you might pay where you are.

As others have mentioned the CZ may be lower in price than the Mauser for instance.

I do have a couple of Zeiss Conquest scopes. Again I wonder what they would cost to you? I understand that the Conquest is assembled in the USA. If you can get them mail order from the USA then perhaps then the price is good.

For shooting to 250 yds with the 308 or similar rounds no special reticule will be required but you may want one anyway for the looks and fun of it. Here a 3-9 Conquest goes for about $385.

The reticule list is here
and you might as well order the #43 if it's available in the model you want.

Obviously the bolt guns will be more accurate than the Dragunov. You didn't mention a price, but here in the states, if you can find a Dragunov, it'll run anywhere from $3500 up depending on condition, accessories, etc.

.308 is more accurate than 7.62x54R. (7.62x54R is very similar to 30-06) They'll both serve you well out to 250 yards at both the range and in the field.

I don't have any experience with the Ziess scoeps. They've got a good name though.

mike

I'm going to use it in informal shooting.

My first choice would be that CZ rifle too, but I don't know whether the Sako performs any better or whether it's more pricey (didn't look for prices yet). Buy why do you recommend in in stainless steel?

I put those Mausers in the list just because I liked the M98 action, but it's true that current production Mausers are very expensive. Does the M 03 have a third lug? How does it perform compared to the M 98?

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:

As others have mentioned the CZ may be lower in price than the Mauser for instance.

I do have a couple of Zeiss Conquest scopes.

I'm between the CZ and the Sako, but I don't have the least clue on which rifle to settle down. Is there much difference in price between them? What on the performance side?

Those Mausers seem to be very good, too good for informal shooting. But, again, as I don't know how much they cost I've added them to the list.

Regarding the optics, I'm with that Conquest because it seems to be a lot of scope for the price. But is there anything else to consider? I've read that those Conquest scopes got some plastic parts, like the turret caps. Moreover, I've read that it weighes a bit too much.

You need to handle the guns that your interested in. Get to know the models of each brand as well. What will get you past this or that feature is if you like it more than the other gun.

The 3-9 Conquest is on the bigger and heavier side as compared to other scopes in its price range. On the other hand it has better definition and a reticule that does not fade in a bright light and some say it lasts longer in dim light. So the scope weighs 15 oz and others go maybe 13 oz. For instance I would compare it directly to the Leu VX3 3.5-10. And with the Conquest at 9X I know that it will out define a Vari-x 111 at 10X. Same with the crosshairs but the Zeiss eye piece is larger and longer and that means some slight mounting compromises that might mean that the bolt comes closer to the Conquests eyepiece and that the Conquest will not go as far forward as the Leu til it hits the rear scope ring.

As I said at 250 yds you dont need anything but a plex reticule but it's fine to want a mil reticule so get one. The thing is that since the mil. reticules became common the laser rangefinder has been perfected and for long range shooting that trumps any reticule.

I still don't know where you are (country) and that might matter for price and avaiablity. Here the Savage rifles will give the most bang for the buck and they have a three position safety. Today the Kimbers are well thought of on the high end and keep in mind that that Sako is suspect somewhat today.

I realize the suggested scopes are the Zeiss Conquest and the Leupold VX-III. I saw an article in the April's issue of Shooting Times where they were testing some high-end Burris scopes. They did seem to be pretty well build but they were very expensive. From my point of view, a scope for that kind of rifle should cost somewhere between $400.00 and $600.00. Of course, the cheaper it can be found the better. Sure I want it to last a long time.

I want some sort of ranging reticle because I don't want to have to bear a rangefinder all time. But I don't know how much do they weight nor their volume. Although, it's true that for that range it isn't needed at all. For that particular kind of rifle and scope would I be able to shoot at father distances? How do you estimate wind drift?

When you said <<keep in mind that that Sako is suspect somewhat today>> what did you mean? How do they compare to a Kimber rifle? I dropped the Remington 700 BDL just because I didn't find it chambered in 308W in their website. But I could consider it in 243W (as a last resort).

By now I'm between the Sako 75 Hunter and the CZ 550 Scandinavia.

En Europe everything is expensive, thus all brands can be considered... Although, it's true that CZ is way cheaper than other options.

If your in France there are some prohibited cartridges there and the 308 may be one of them.

One of the best laser rangefinders is the Leica 1200 Scan and that costs over $400 here. It's small but is one more item to carry and not needed for 250 yds with those cartridges. Still useful however for the rimfire and other purposes.

Sako blowups and coverup

I really don't prefer the Remington, although I have one, for it's brazed together bolt, extractor, ejector, push feed, safety, trigger and safety record.

Hello Savage 99,
What safety record might you be talking about regarding the Rem. 700?? Probably the most popular action on this planet ,not aware of abnormal safety issues?? Please advise we millions of shooters out there. Look forward to your factual answers and sure Remington would like to know all about them as well. Would welcome specifics, dates, times, places, who, etc.

"At last count we had over 1,500 customer complaints of similar malfunctions."

Link

Search

It would appear that triggers are being tampered with by those not knowing what they are doing, not so?? CBS would not be a source for fairness to any gun mfg. most would say. No, Rem. 700 was, is and remains one of the finest firearm designs in use today and in terms of failures on a percentage basis, has an outstanding record in all respects. Let's see now, Winchester gone and even with the proverbial CRF feature, could not sell enough to keep it's doors open, Savage introduces a "new" trigger to spur sales but needs a lot more that that, Weatherby hanging in there for a small niche market, Ruger does well and probably sells more firearms on a total basis than all combined, so give them credit, but after all the hype is gone, Remington still there, and almost universal for durable, accurate, economical, "out of the box..." hunting/sporting rifle. Dominates without rivals in the precision shooting world action wise. Remington Model 700 as a choice is about as good as it gets.

Between the following three brand/model choices which one would you pick up and why?

Remington 700 BDL
CZ 550 Scandinavia
Sako 75 Hunter

Presumably in 308W. 243W and 6.5x55 as possible choices.

Please, note that I'm mainly asking for what good points and what disadvantages you find in each rifle.

I recommend stainless because all hunters hunt in bad weather. My main rifle is a Winchester M-70 Featherweight in 308 with a Leupold 4x scope. It’s very much like what you say you want. It’s also nearly perfect for me and would be for you as well. Its only flaw is that it’s not stainless.

A fixed 4x scope is fine for the shots you describe. It’s also cheaper, lighter and more rugged than a variable, and the 308 shoots flat enough that you won’t need a rangefinder inside 250m. Wind is only an issue when ranges are too long to shoot game with a 308. As a kid in Oklahoma, an extremely windy part of the US, I learned to read wind from experienced target shooters at a club. Reading wind is art, not science, so this is not just the best way, it’s the ONLY way. Fortunately, wind will rarely be a factor on game inside 250m. If it is, come back another day.

For your shooting, either Sako or CZ will be fine. The Sako will be lighter, and in the US it will cost about 50% more. Seriously consider the CZ, and consider it in 7x64 if you live in France.


Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by cotefenetre:
Between the following three brand/model choices which one would you pick up and why?

Remington 700 BDL
CZ 550 Scandinavia
Sako 75 Hunter

Presumably in 308W. 243W and 6.5x55 as possible choices.

Please, note that I'm mainly asking for what good points and what disadvantages you find in each rifle.

Well, I definitely like the Rem. 700 for the simple reason it is an excellent action, very easy to properly bed, accurize, unlimited options on the market for customizing if you so desire in the future and they are not priced out of the realm of mere mortals. Most Remingtons will give .5 moa accuracy out of the box with good ammo. Scope mounting systems unlimited for the Remington action profile. I believe you are correct that the basic model is not available in 308, but last time I was in Europe was told that any military round, i.e. NATO, etc. could not be owned by civilians???? I understand that France is not a member of NATO? Is that the case? Spain and Italy very tough on this matter of military/civilian calibers.
In either case, if the 308 not available to you, and that is a shame, would opt for the 6.5 Swede as you mentioned. Superb caliber, long history of excellent hunting round, would think quite available to you in Europe. Equal admiration for 260 Rem. but probably not available to you there. Should mention that if available, Jewell trigger is excellent option for Rem. if you can get one over there. Optics would go for Leupold 4.5x14 VXIII, 1" tube and gives excellent results and reasonably priced. Not sure how available to you vs. European optics. As an all around sporting rifle with the ability to grow into whatever you want it to be in the future, the Rem. 700 is a clear choice for me and lots of other folks around the world. Note how many law enforcement and military shooters use the Rem. 700 as a base to build whatever they need. Just a suggestion.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
I really don't prefer the Remington, although I have one, for it's brazed together bolt, extractor, ejector, push feed, safety, trigger and safety record.

Yep, those 700's are real pieces of shit. Must be why the Marines Corps has been using them as the platform for their sniper rifles for the last 40 years.

Oh sure just like the junk M16's they used that finally got a forward assist.

The M700 Remington is a third rate design made worse by negative development. For target shooting its an acceptable design that shoots well at a low price.

Outstanding craigster!!
May the Lord forgive them for they know not what they say or do!! Perhaps in the fullness of time they will see the error of their ways and ask for forgiveness. Hell, Savage99 would have one believe it is a high risk proposition to even go close to a Rem. 700. Again, most wrongs are corrected with time. One can only hope.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Oh sure just like the junk M16's they used that finally got a forward assist.

The first rule of comparison, never compare apples with oranges.

The "marines" did not choose the 700 action. Some officer did. Same with the M16. Same with many military guns for other nations. They have many compromises to equip an army but one does not have to compromise when buying a new gun unless money is the problem.

The reasons that I don't prefer the Remingtion 700 or 721 actions for a hunting rifle were outlined above. They are specific good reasons. Now I shot my first deer with a 722 Rem and also a lot of chucks with that gun. Also I have used and still use a SS 40X for competition.

It's just that there are better designs available today for hunting.

I have wondered when someone might ask about the Mauser M-03. STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM IT!!

I purchased one with 2 barrels, sight unseen. Liked the rifle well enough--didn't pay attention close enough though, it's a 14.5" length of pull. No matter< i thought, I'd work up some loads, and if I really liked the rifle, I would have it cut to 13.5"--a bit of a pain for a brand new rifle though....

When fondling it in the den the night after I got it, Mid October--last year--I was swapping out the barrels just to see how that worked, (simple enough BTW) and I dropped the stock/action, it fell all of about two feet--Max--and the stock split around the mag well, and well up into the forend! What a pisser--that would be real sweet in the field huh?

Long Story short, I got an RA the next day, and my rifle was back to SIG USA the next day. They still have my f$^(*&^ rifle! Complete idiocy. I have poured more sugar on them than a Florida cane field has, and it is to the point of utter ridiculous. I have been promised my rifle back--supposed to ship this Thursday--I don't believe it for a second. If they don't provide me with shipping info on Thursday, the next communique they get will be from my attorney.

Spent a fair bit of dough, and a drop that is relatively common in the field while hunting, breaks the damn stock, and I haven't a round through the rig. As soon as I get it back, I am going to trade the whole setup, even if I end up at 50 cents on the dollar, I would NEVER take this rifle afield.

Having said that, I have had nothing but good luck with SAUER 202's, I have a bunch, and have actually gotten some parts for them from Sig.

Of the rifles you listed, I like the SAKO's, it ain't worth the extra for the deluxe, it's gloss wood & gloss bluing, I definitely prefer the hunter for hunting--pun intended.

Good Shooting--Don