Friends-

I have been eyeing a .358 Norma Mag. I have done a little bit of checking and based on my cursory review, I think a .358 Norma Mag is the .308 Norma Mag necked up to .35 Caliber (big surprise!!).

IIRC, the .308 and .358 Norma Mags were roughly equivalent to the .264, .338 Winchester Mags along with the 7 MM Remington Mag with the exception being the Norma version had the shoulder moved forward just a tad?

Should be a heck of a round.

Any comments out there?

IIRC, the shoulder on the Norma round is listed as 25.5 degrees as compared to 25.0 degrees on the Winchester. I also think that the Norma LOA may be just an insignficant amount (difference in metric and English units) longer. It is simple to make brass for either of the Norma rounds from .338 Winchester.

Years ago, the .35 caliber was somewhat neglected as far as modern, quality bullets. Now you can get Noslers and other premium bullets in .35 which makes the .358 Norma pretty well able to do anything you would do with a .338 Win or a .375 H&H. The Norma may theoretically lack a little of the range of the .338 and a bit of the punch of the .375, but nothing you shoot with it will know the difference.

quote:

IIRC, the .308 and .358 Norma Mags were roughly equivalent to the .264, .338 Winchester Mags along with the 7 MM Remington Mag with the exception being the Norma version had the shoulder moved forward just a tad?

I have a Mannlicher 358 Norma. Factory 250 Norma ammo at 2700fps from a 19" barrel. Just putting the finishing touches on its brother a 308 Norma. While I have seen several mention making the brass from a 300Wmag I bought new Norma for the 308. If I was going to make it I'd use 338wmag the neck will be just a touch short but for sure not short enough to cause a problem. No trimming required.

The 358 Norma Mag came before the 308 Norma Mag so the 308 is a necked down 358. The 30-338 is ballistically identical to the 308 Norma and is what the 300 Win Mag SHOULD have looked like if Norma hadn't beaten them to the punch. Here's a photo of all five.

Ray

30 magfan, I was also compareing the 308 and 358 norma to the 30-338(338,7mm mag).

If I ever see a good deal on either 308 or 358 norma rifle again I think they would be fine caliber to have.

The 358 Norma is great all around workhorse. I've never felt undergunned or overgunned using 1 for 25 yrs. Any bullet that has used performed perfectly and it's an inherintly accurately cartridge for anything from sheep to brown bears.

I think the .358 norma would be a great round. I saw one at a show a while back and I tried to buy it but it was built buy a fairly famous smith so the price was to much for me.
I think it would be great on a enfield action. ...tj3006

The 358 Norma mag appproaches close to the power of the .375 H&H mag, but does so with a shorter round, meaning that the rifle for it can be built on a regular length action long enough for the 30-06.

For some reason it never caught on in America.

I recently saw a 98 Mauser in .358 Norma Mag for sale on Gunbroker, if I recall it was in Colorado Springs, CO.

FWIW, my next custom project will more than likely be a .358 Norma mag. To my mind it's the quintessential 35 caliber round for the big stuff. If one wants a round larger than the .35 Whelen and wants to use a standard length action, the Norma mag fits the bill. Although it has always intrigued me, the .358 STA is more trouble than it's worth.

GSP7, send me a PM. I have a 308 NM I would like to move. I am left handed, and it isn't...

I have a .358 norma and its a great round, you can also load 310 grain woodleigh in it for close use, i have got some bullets from 180 grain Nosler HG PArttiton , and Nosler Accubond 225 grain .

The thing why it didnt catch on in the states was that it wasnt put in a winchester or a Remington rifle. And the CEO on norma he didnt understand that USA was the primary expiort nation for new calibers and guns, ammo and othe rin a quantity.

Adn he was later the Normas s representative in the US.

Its a great round and it combines the 375 H&H in power and the flatshootness with the .275 Winchester with the right load.

30 Caliber Mag Fan ----- I am a .358 Caliber fan and the .358 Norma if a fine round, second only to the STA. I shoot two .358 STA's that are truly awesome. The Norma would be too them about like the .338 compares to the .340 Wby or .338 Lapua. There are many good .358 caliber bullets available today, the best of which are the North Forks. Refer to the Nosler or Barnes manuals too check it out. Good luck and good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
The 358 Norma mag appproaches close to the power of the .375 H&H mag, but does so with a shorter round, meaning that the rifle for it can be built on a regular length action long enough for the 30-06.

For some reason it never caught on in America.

excellent description...it never caught on.....the 338 Win Mag just blew it away.....the Norma offering is substantially more energy as well!

If legal, this thing should be a cape buff round easily!.....It'll certainly tame the big bears!

The 35 mags are great I have alot of experience with Lazzeroni's short little Eagle. This little bugger launches a 250 grainer at 2850fps and a 225 grain barnes tsx at 3000fps. Right on the heels of the 358sta all in a short action m70 with 24 inch barrel. This is done very efficiently burning from 70-73 grains of powder. The rifle is a joy to carry up the hill and has enough horsepower to kill anything you may meet at the top of the hill. Just might be the perfect 35. I have the reamer if anyone wants to borrow it.

As an unabashed 35-lover, I gotta say, there's no surprises here. Hte 338 Winmag and the 375 C-T are both great rounds. No reason the 358 N won't perform just as you'd expect.
It's a medium-length round that fits in most any action, delivers serious punch just like the 338, and with a little bigger hole.
No magic, no mystery, just plenty of powder behind a good sized bullet. If you want it get it.

The beauty of the 358 Norma is it's balance. It will do 2820 fps with a 250 Gr. Nosler or 2950+
with a 225 Partition out of a 23" barrel with NO muzzle brake. And for the heavyweights, 2700 with a 280 Swift but recoil is noticable out of a 8 1/2 lb. rifle. It's just a great hunting round. Try it, you'll like it.

My custom 358 Norma was hitting 3k fps. with a 225-grain Swift A-Frame; the barrel is 26". Killed a brownie last spring with this setup.

I had mine put up as follows:
1) Stainless Ruger Mark ll action
2) Timney trigger set at a crisp 2.5 lbs
3) Stainless 22†Lilja 1 in 12†twist barrel that is .614†at the muzzle
4) The whole Mary-Ann was bead blasted to a light gun boat grey
5) New England back-up iron sights
6) Precision forest green stock that was bedded with the barrel channel floated
7) (Not pictured obviously) it wears a Leupold FX-lll 6x42 scope that is tightly held by Leupold mounts

Although I have had this rifle for a few years, I have not used it in the brush until this year. I had a second elk tag (MT A9) this year, and I put up some .225 TSXs to use in this Norma for the A9 late season hunt. It worked just super… CP.

CP,

Nice rifle! I'm using the Leupold 6x42 scope as well on mine. Excellent combo.

Excellent caliber..I like it so well I have two a 9 pound Sako with 25" Douglas 14 twist barrel. Shoots 275 Barnes into 1" groups at 2650ft/sec with a moderate charge of RL19. 225 Sierras at 2950 shoot into .5MOA and shoots as flat as my 7MM Rem. Great caribou load.

The other rifle is a 7 pound Ruger with 22" Magnaported barrel. 250 Nosler partitions and H4895 really make an impression on game and has trashed two scopes due to recoil. Now wears a 2.5X loopie which seems to stand up well.

This is the ultimate Moose rifle. I like it.

If you can find some old 300 Barnes roundoses these things really penetrate! I can get 2600 from the Sako! Who needs a 375?

quote:

Originally posted by CP:
I had mine put up as follows:
1) Stainless Ruger Mark ll action
2) Timney trigger set at a crisp 2.5 lbs
3) Stainless 22†Lilja 1 in 12†twist barrel that is .614†at the muzzle
4) The whole Mary-Ann was bead blasted to a light gun boat grey
5) New England back-up iron sights
6) Precision forest green stock that was bedded with the barrel channel floated
7) (Not pictured obviously) it wears a Leupold FX-lll 6x42 scope that is tightly held by Leupold mounts

I put up some .225 TSXs to use in this Norma for the A9 late season hunt. It worked just super… CP.

Very nice hunting tool.

I thought long and hard about a 358 Norma, and decided to go with what is basically a 358 Norma necked up to .366 (or 9.3mm).

I also used a Ruger 77 MK II stainless action, Timmney trigger, 23" Pac-Nor stainless barrel with 12" twist, and bead blasted.

So far, I haven't made a decision about backup iron sights, but I plan on using a 2x7 Leupold Shotgun scope for starters, because I already have one.

I also haven't made a final decision about the stock, but was thinking of a Hogue.

You say you have a Precision stock in forest green. Is that a HS Precision stock?

I'm using 338 Win Mag necked up to 9.3mm, but it would be practically the same result if I used 358 Norma brass instead. My plan is to develop loads using the 250 gr Barnes TSX bullets, and the 250 gr Nosler Accubonds, and just see which works out best.

Anyway, I doubt any difference in actual field performance will be evident in using either the 358 Norma or my wildcat. Both are super cartridges. I was just drawn to the 9.3mm more than the .358, and the 286gr 9.3mm bullet is something I can use in my .366 wildcat, but first I want to see what it will do with the 250 grs mentioned above, and I may try some of the Swift 250 grs as well.

I'm expecting the 9.3 wildcat to perform with a 250 gr bullet about the same as the 358 Norma does with the 225 gr bullet.

KB

Kabluewy, yes my Norma is wearing a H-S Precision stock. Although I generally prefer McMillan stocks, this Precision is working out just fine, and I don’t have any complaints. CP.

Finding factory ammo might be a problem, if you don't handload.

onefunzr2,
That's why I didn't hesitate (well not much) going with the wildcat using the .366 bullets. I figured I would be hand loading the 358 Norma anyway, if I went with it, so for me both the 358 N and the .366 Wildcat were on the same scale in that regard.

There is basically only one source of brass and loaded ammo for the 358 Norma, if you don't count the expensive A-Square stuff, and I don't. One source is enough, (Norma) and it is doubtful that supply will go away.

Brass for the wildcat can be made from 338 WM brass, and 358 Norma brass, and others but not quite so easily. Brass is not a problem, nor are dies, reamer, etc. But load data is a bit of a challange, so thats why I'm going with 250 gr bullets to start with. I plan on using starting load data for the 358 Norma 250gr loads, using the forgiving IMR 4895 powder, and work up. I'll also consider some reliable data for the 375 Taylor wildcat.

There are some advantages of having a handloading only rifle.

KB

My 358 Norma Magnum is on a Winchester Classic Stainless Steel action converted from a 300 Winchester Magnum. It has a Kreiger SS barrel with a Pacific Research stock. It is extremely accurate rifle I use for elk and bad weather. It is much harder hitter than the 338 Winchester Magnum from my experience.

I have a 1917 Rem. enfield in 35 whelen AI with a 26" barrel, I am always toying with the idea of having it run out to 358 Norma (I have a 308 norma on a springfield). Would be a lot of fun and no problem getting good velocities. hmmm......

Red

quote:

There are some advantages of having a handloading only rifle.

Can you itemize them for us?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
IIRC, the shoulder on the Norma round is listed as 25.5 degrees as compared to 25.0 degrees on the Winchester. I also think that the Norma LOA may be just an insignficant amount (difference in metric and English units) longer. It is simple to make brass for either of the Norma rounds from .338 Winchester.

Years ago, the .35 caliber was somewhat neglected as far as modern, quality bullets. Now you can get Noslers and other premium bullets in .35 which makes the .358 Norma pretty well able to do anything you would do with a .338 Win or a .375 H&H. The Norma may theoretically lack a little of the range of the .338 and a bit of the punch of the .375, but nothing you shoot with it will know the difference.

Actually if you try to form 358Norma brass
from 338winMag brass it comes out ~.070 (going from memory here) too short
Generally speaking you are better off forming 358Norma brass from 300WinMag, because the 300Mag brass is enough longer to make up the difference.

you could also form brass from 340Wby cases, but since genuine Norma 358NormaMag brass is an in-stock item at Cabela's I just don't see the point in making brass for the 358Mag any more.

Compared to the tedious nature of necking, fire forming, resizing, reloading (and an inspection stage in each place where I've put a comma)
$1/case for shiny new correctly headstamped brass is a bargain.

AllanD

At first Norma used the Alska bullet which was originally made for the .358 winchester... Those bullets separated and didnt behave properly in the field.

the best bullets for it for many years was nosler parttion until Swift woodleigh and other came to the scene. In West Africa its allowed to use on BG/DG with the heavy bullets, and a 310 woodligh in ca 750 meters is something to think on to use .

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
[QUOTE]There are some advantages of having a handloading only rifle.

Can you itemize them for us?

Advantages of a hand loading only rifle, chambered in a wildcat?

Well, that partially depends on one’s mindset. First one has to be into hand loading. If a guy has it set in his mind that he needs to be able to always go to the local sporting goods store and buy ammo for his rifle, then there is no way to convince him a wildcat has merit. For me, one or two wildcats is not a problem, because I hand load anyway, and because I have rifles that shoot factory ammo to use, in case I run out of hand loads for the wildcat. That is hypothetical of course, because I have never run out of ammo.

To me, cartridges like the 358 Norma, as a practical matter, are hand loading propositions, even though the factory ammo from Norma is plenty good.

Here are some reasons for a hand loading only rifle:

1. You don’t have to worry about someone wanting to mooch ammo from you.
2. It practically eliminates excuses:
a.) If you miss, or your ammo fails, you have take responsibility. - no one else to blame.
b.) You can’t blame so-so accuracy on the ammo. Thorough testing with hand loads will sort out the accurate rifles from the not-so-accurate.
c.) No excuse for a dirty bore. If accuracy diminishes, you’ll learn to clean the bore, to give your hand loads a chance to succeed.
3. No stock stash of various factory ammo, which you don’t use anymore because your hand loads are better.
4. You get to match the best brass, with the best bullet for the job.
5. Gives appreciation for what a special rifle can do.
6. You can tailor-make reduced loads.
7. There is satisfaction in having a unique rifle.
8. Practically forces you to go to the range and test fire and sight in your rifle.


Others may add to this list.

KB

Kabluewy,

Good points, all. I never thought about it in those terms.