Perhaps this is a 'silly' question but is there a caliber that is similar in power to a 300 WM but is not a belted cartridge?
Been looking at the books a bit, and trying to think of a 30 Cal equivalent... .06 length action or 300 WM length since I have one....the Dakota cartridge seems to come close, but that is almost obsolete in my mind with all the issues at Dakota.....

The new 300 Ruger is Rimless...as is the .338 Ruger and soon to be .416 Ruger (hopefully)..The new Ruger case openned up some doors for todays Wildcatters that have about run out of work!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The new 300 Ruger is Rimless...as is the .338 Ruger and soon to be .416 Ruger (hopefully)..The new Ruger case openned up some doors for todays Wildcatters that have about run out of work!

I think Ray meant beltless.....

If you really want you can neck down the .375 Ruger to .308 Ruger and simply rechamber the .300 win mag.....you may have to set the barrel back a thread as well.

Sure is! .300WSM,.300RSAUM,.300RCM,.30-06,etc.

But what's the concern with the belted rds? I've been loading my belted .300 for 25yrs with no,nil,notta problems. Seems I never heard about these "problems" until the beltless mag rds started coming out.

til later

Ray, good thought, I'll look at the 300 Ruger, just wonder about reloading performance for it, I'll look at case capacity and see what that indicates.

EP--got the WSM, the RSAUM is dead in the water IMO, and the 06 AIN'T in the power range of a 300 WM. The RCM, I need to look at.

I'm just wanting to be beltless, it's cooler you know

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The new 300 Ruger is Rimless...as is the .338 Ruger and soon to be .416 Ruger (hopefully)..The new Ruger case openned up some doors for todays Wildcatters that have about run out of work!

I think Ray meant beltless.....

If you really want you can neck down the .375 Ruger to .308 Ruger and simply rechamber the .300 win mag.....you may have to set the barrel back a thread as well.

Nope Rays right, the Ruger is rimless, it also happens to be beltless.

quote:

I'll look at case capacity and see what that indicates.

case capacity should be roughly the same as the .300 Weatherby....load developement is simple too.....start with .300 win mag data and work up.

At least theoretically you should have a .300 Weatherby in a beltless short action.....well...shorter than the normal Weatherby length.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Perhaps this is a 'silly' question but is there a caliber that is similar in power to a 300 WM but is not a belted cartridge?

Yes

quote:

Been looking at the books a bit, and trying to think of a 30 Cal equivalent...

That would be a down-loaded 300RUM. And if you don't want to do the down-loading, the factory does it for you with the Level 2 Load.

Level 1 has 308Win/30-06 power.
Level 2 has 300WinMag/300WbyMag power.
Level 3 has 300RUM clinton kicking power.

A 30-06 Ackley will get you pretty close to 300 WM

Good help guys, Thanks for the intel Vapo, that makes me really interested in that case!

HC, good point, hadn't thought of the RUM, to my naive ass it just seemed ineffecient on it's own right...

The AI -06 just seemed a little short, but I like the AI cases.

Thanks again

A question: is a rimless case the same as a case with a rebateds rim such as the 425 WR?

quote:

The AI -06 just seemed a little short, but I like the AI cases.

FWIW.....in these threads we see that the overwhelming opinion is that the difference between the .308 and the .30-06 is virtually nothing. And in my own experience (as long as we control to 180 grains) the difference in attainable velocity is less than 100 fps.....and this with a considerable increase in case capacity in the '06 over the .308

That said how in god's green earth does anyone actually think the slight improvement in case capacity going to the AI configuration has any gains at all.....

AI is one of the biggest jokes ever played on the (mostly American) shooter!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I'll look at case capacity and see what that indicates.

case capacity should be roughly the same as the .300 Weatherby....load developement is simple too.....start with .300 win mag data and work up.

At least theoretically you should have a .300 Weatherby in a beltless short action.....well...shorter than the normal Weatherby length.

Is the 300 Ruger Compact Magnum equal to the 300 Weatherby?? What are the relevant case capacities?

quote:

Is the 300 Ruger Compact Magnum equal to the 300 Weatherby?? What are the relevant case capacities?

I was speaking of the "necked down .375 Ruger"

I have no clue what the .300 Ruger compact Magnum is!

And indeed I had to look it up as well to ask the question. The Ruger .300 RCM is a 2" long shortened 375 Ruger case also necked to .338.



The .338 RCM (left) with its parent case, the .375 Ruger (right). External dimensions remain similar, with the case shortened to 2.015 inches and necked down to accept a .338-inch bullet.

Check out some of the loads and groups on the reloading page of this very same website for the 300RUM.

300 RUM Reloading data

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
And indeed I had to look it up as well to ask the question. The Ruger .300 RCM is a 2" long shortened 375 Ruger case also necked to .338.



The .338 RCM (left) with its parent case, the .375 Ruger (right). External dimensions remain similar, with the case shortened to 2.015 inches and necked down to accept a .338-inch bullet.

180 grains at 2,900 fps from a true short action ain't just chickencrap!!!!

Looks like they're going head to head with the WSMs

At least this I can say....their .338 RCM will outsell the .325 WSM for bullet selection alone!

Somehow, I never suspected that S&W's failed mid-90's business model (Bring out a new gun every week; sooner or later something's bound to sell) would end up being the guiding light of the ammo business. Well, it won't matter much down the road. Just saw the Dem's new "gun platform" they have adopted for the upcoming election. When they win, the game is pretty well "tits up and downstream" anyway.

But really,guys, look at the list of cartridges listed as possible answers to this thread's question, and ask yourself, "How much time, money, and hype has been put into this whole new short, fat, beltless cartridge business recently which might have been better used in preserving our sport in other, more useful ways?

As if any of the new cartridges will do anything the old ones wouldn't......

Arrrrgggghhhh!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
180 grains at 2,900 fps from a true short action ain't just chickencrap!!!!

Reports are closer to 2800fps from real rifles. Still not bad from a 20" barrel ... a real barrel of 22-23" may bring it up closer to factory specs.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
A question: is a rimless case the same as a case with a rebateds rim such as the 425 WR?

Bryan, hope I'm not teaching my Granny to suck eggs here
In my understanding:
A rimmed case has an extraction flange that stands proud of the base of the case sufficient to enable the extractor to gain purchase on the case. Eg 30-40 Krag, 303 British
A Semi-rimmed case has an extraction flange that stands proud of the base of the case but to a lesser amount & needs a groove around the base to enble the extractor to get sufficient purchase. Eg 220 Swift, 307 Winchester & the recent 308 Marlin.
A rimless case has an extraction flange the same diameter as the base of the case with an extractor groove to enable the extractor to gain purchase. EG everything based on the original 7x57 case & smaller ones such as 223 Rem etc.
A rebated rimless case has an extraction flange of smaller diameter than the base of the case, normally to enable it to fit a particular sized bolt face. It has a groove in front of the flange to enable the extractor to gain purchase. Eg, All the RUMs, the 426 WR & the 500 Jeffery.
I suspect you knew all that anyway so perhaps the real answer to your question is no but sort of.
Steve

If you really want a beltless .300 Mag real bad, I suggest you look up one which came on the market in about 1914...something called the .30 Newton.

Apparently the new Ruger .300 will be just about a dead-nuts clone of it. Anyway, .30 Newton cases can be made from modern brass...the .375 Ruger, I think may be about right for a source though I haven't tried it yet..

Shinzo: thanks, I really was not certain: the older I get the more I find out just how little I actually know

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
...HC, good point, hadn't thought of the RUM, to my naive ass it just seemed ineffecient on it's own right...

It depends on your definition. It does indeed burn a good bit of Powder to run it wide-open, but you gotta get some sure enough Whup-clinton Available Energy at the Point-of-Impact.

I've managed to see a bit over two dozen different ones at the Range. All had Muzzle Brakes and all of those folks were shooting Factory Ammo. All of them mentioned how little recoil they felt and "I" was amazed at how Accurate they all were out of the box with all kinds of scopes.

There would be an occasional Flinch in the beginning, but that is also apparently common amongst AR Mambers who think anything stronger than a 22Hornet for Deer is Over-Kill.

So, I do believe it would do whatever you desire, except fit in a Short Action.

Some of the other Cartridges mentioned above use Non-Released Powders and seriously enhanced Load Techniques. Due to that, I doubt we could achieve the Velocities the Factory Ammo is able to attain in some of the smaller Cartridges. But, Vapo would be a better source on that since he has first-hand expertice with the folks making that Super-Duper Ammo.

Best of luck in your choice.

Back to the original post.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Perhaps this is a 'silly' question but is there a caliber that is similar in power to a 300 WM but is not a belted cartridge?
Been looking at the books a bit, and trying to think of a 30 Cal equivalent...the Dakota cartridge seems to come close, but that is almost obsolete in my mind with all the issues at Dakota.....

Seems we have discussed the .300 SAUM, the .300 WSM, The .300 RCM, .300 RUM, and if interested the wildcat .300-.375 Ruger.

Beltless .30 cal magnums for all action lengths. That ought to be enough for anyone.

Vapo, I think you're right.
BTW I like the AI cases for their steep shoulder, not any perceived velocity gains.....

Since I was thinking of rechambering a 300 WM, I'm not thinking of short action--I do like .06 length as a max action length when possible

I'm gonna scope out the 300 RCM, I have a custom 375 RCM being built right now, so it would be cool for it to have a little brother!

Just for the record, some of you are correct I did mean beltless but it is also rimless for whatever that's worth..sorry for the typo..

That said, I see no advantage what so ever to a beltless case, the belted case is just as good as the beltless case IMO...albiet there are not a lot of flys on either one..I sure like my beltless 416/375 Ruger.

Unclear exactly what you were asking in the first post. Most of these rounds (Newton, Ruger, RUM, etc.) are actually bigger than the Winchester. I don't recollect seeing any beltless case with a rim of 513.
Ruger's new case has the base measuring the same as the old belted case, ~.532" but the Canadian 280 Ross did that back in the early 1900's. There was a bit of a rim however (20 thou?)
If what you want is a .308" 180g going 2950 fps, the factory-loaded 300 WSM does it. The RCM does it as well, though you'll need factory loads from the looks of it. [Imagine handloads wouldn't be too shabby either.] If you have some perceived notion of feeding/loading problems using the old belted case, read up on some of the WSM rifles. Apparently short and stubby comes with more problems than a .020" belt. (= more than "none.)
If you want a standard-length mag that does what the winnie has done well for decades, maybe the Dakota is what you're looking for. It's a bit thicker like all of these cases, and is basically a standard-length RUM. Cases are straight from the old 404 Jeffery round.
But when you get down to it, at that level of performance there is cimply no round with anywhere near 1/2 the load data available as the 300 winnie. It has done its job over and over and over and over. And over. As much as I lvoe playing around with new cartridges, this thing has to be included in the annals of shooting history (along with the 375 H&H, '06, 45 ACP, 30-30, 22lr) as one of the kings.

I'd opt for the WSM over the RCM. Its been stated from Hornady that its "proprietary" powders that gets those phenominal speeds from 20" tubes (which means = magic pixie dust you'll never be able to recreate with canister powders) So you're stuck with basically 2 loads from Hornady at the moment, and not much else. Also Ruger will probably be the only rifles so chambered....maybe Howa, noticed they took WSM's off their line, and are now chambering the 375 Ruger. Back on topic here - same article showed the RCM beating the WSM bullet for bullet with equal 20" barrels. However, when put in 24" tubes the WSM was faster by more then just 30-40fps, I want to say around 80-100fps. So, Hornady is probably using a magic fast burning powder which doesnt hang in longer barrels. Stick faster burning powders in the WSM and it SHOULD outpace the RCM due to larger capacity. You can't go wrong with the 300WSM, there are nearly HUNDREDS of choices in factory ammo, and the only people not making WSM rifles are Ruger and Howa now. Winchester, Remington, Browning (in BAR, single shot high wall and BLR) Sako, Tikka, Savage, Weatherby Vanguard, Kimber, all chamber at least the 270 and 300 in several different models per company.