Anybody had a chance to play with the new Sub MOA? I saw one in a local shop and it looked pretty good on the shelf with it's composite stock and matte finish.

I don't have any experience with Weatherbys but I am in the market for a new rifle. I was looking at Remingtons but....

Thanks!

Randy

Weatherby has to charge more for a sub-MOA rifle, but Sako gives it to you standard.

Guess which one I've had and which one I won't.......

The Weatherbys are very fine rifles. All of the Mark Vs I've dealt w/ were quite good shooters,the actions were very smooth, and the triggers weren't bad either. One thing I would advise is that if you don't reload, don't get a Weatherby Mag. The factory ammo is too expensive and hard to find.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Just curious HP...how much is the Sako you refer to? The Weatherby I saw was like $650 and some change.

I have to admit that I'm kind of a die-hard Remington fan, so it'll take a lot for me to consider anything else!

Basically, my situation is that I have a very nice Rem 700BDL custom deluxe 7mmMag. It's a pretty rifle and I've done my best to keep it that way. THEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM! I got a killer deal on this rifle about 10 years ago in brand new condition. The thing shines and looks like some kind of fancy dinner table...NOT my idea of a hunting implement. So I put a gun chap on it and have put up with it for all these years. Well, this year I've decided I'm going to dump it and get a stainless/synthetic rifle either in 7mag, 300WSM or .25-06. I'm kinda nervous about making the jump because my 7mag shoots MOA with my reloads and that's the thing I guess that's made me keep it all this time!

The ideal rifle (and it might mean I have to build it) would be stainless, with a fluted barrel, synthetic stock with some sort of pattern (like the HS precision), and an adjustable trigger.

I can have that exact rifle in 'build it yourself' configuration if I buy a Savage. They're kinda like my AR in the fact that you can swap stuff out yourself!

I'm kinda thinking 'out loud' here and trying to figure out just what the heck I want to do! The Weatherby looked pretty good all things considered even though it's not stainless and fluted.

I guess I'm hung up on looks...my wife would say I'm just too shallow-haha!

Well shut my mouth...they DO have a stainless version!

Weatherby MOA....Cherry picked Vangaurds. If I were looking at a Vangaurd, I would be a liitle pissed knowing that my chances of getting a good one have gone down since the introduction of the MOA.

Aaron

Kinda funny when you think about it...

$650 isn't a bad price for a $200 rifle with a Weatherby name plate added to it.

First of all, most Howa 1500s (what a Weatherby Vanguard is) are MOA or sub MOA shooters. You chances of getting one that shoots like that are better than even. So a $650 Weatherby Vanguard Sub MOA is about $300 more than you should be paying. Weatherby is playing for a fool anyone who pays that much for a dressed up Howa (and I really like Howas, having owned one that was a hammer).

Second, Weatherby has offered their Sub MOA option on their Mark V for a year or two now. That was the comparison I was making to Sako's 75.

To recap: only a fool pays $600+ for a Howa, and only a fool pays a premium over the already inflated prices of the Mark V (1 1/2 MOA with premium ammo? gimme a break.....) for a sub MOA when all Sakos include that in their price. A Sako 75 Hunter can be found all day NIB for about $800 at gunbroker.com or gunsamerica.com.

Or you could get a Savage, usually sub .5 MOA included in the price !!!

You do get a little more for your money with the SUB-MOA than just a cherry picked Howa action . You get a pillar bedded stock with steel reinforcements thru the wrist and a de-celerater pad. Looks like not a bad deal as far as factory rifles go , but if you want stainless it does retail for $100 more.

Aaron does have a point , though, in that it would look like having Weatherby pick over the barreled actions does increase your odds of getting a lemon if you buy a standard grade Vanguard .

The Sako would cost you quite a bit more , and for your extra money it looks like you get extra chances of blowing up your gun ,,,,,(grin)


A Savage is a cheap toy compared to the Vanguard /Howa action .

Tikka rifles must also shoot MOA before leaving the factory and they are priced about the same as the standard vanguard.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
Weatherby has to charge more for a sub-MOA rifle, but Sako gives it to you standard.

Guess which one I've had and which one I won't.......

One additional thing SAKO Management gives you is No WARNING about producing Exploding firearms.

There were a couple of long threads on the Exploding SAKOs over on the Gunsmith Board, and maybe one on this Board as well just a month or so ago.

But, they are not alone, Winchester did the same thing back in the rag Pre-64 era and never recalled a one of them. It is well documented in PO Ackley's books, who was one of the pioneer Wildcatters of that era.
---

I have a safe full of Remingtons, but wedged in amongst them is a Weatherby U-Lt. The particular Weatherby I have is not quite as accurate as the Remingtons, but it still shoots in the 8s on average when my concentration is up.

But, you never know how accurate a particular rifle will be until you shoot it.

Best of luck to you in your quest for the new rifle.

Thanks for the input! I'm not sure I understand why a $600 Weatherby is a worse deal than an $800 Howa? Especially if it's doing the same thing?

I don't rule out Savage in my quest either. People can say that they're cheap if they want but everybody I know that has one gets great accuracy and reliability from theirs!

On the other hand...I MAY just tear down the 7mag I have and have it rebarrelled....maybe 7mmSTW! Matte blue the reciever and the barrel would be stainless, drop it in an HS Precision stock and call it good!

So many choices!

quote:

Originally posted by pyledriver:
Thanks for the input! I'm not sure I understand why a $600 Weatherby is a worse deal than an $800 Howa? !

Whoever said a Howa would cost $800? I mentioned you can buy Sakos for that much.

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
The Sako would cost you quite a bit more

You can find Sako 75s for $800 to $900 all day long. You'd have to look hard for a new Mark V under $1K.

HP-sorry, I said Howa but meant Sako. I am still a little confused though. You keep talking about a Mark V. The sub-Moa is a Vanguard rifle. Admittedly, I don't know much here but it seems you're comparing apples to oranges?

I already get that you don't like Weatherby too much...but if the Sako is 800 and the Weatherby around 6-700..excluding the use of NEW MATH..it sounds like the Weatherby is the better deal?

quote:

Originally posted by pyledriver:
HP-sorry, I said Howa but meant Sako. I am still a little confused though. You keep talking about a Mark V. The sub-Moa is a Vanguard rifle. Admittedly, I don't know much here but it seems you're comparing apples to oranges?

I already get that you don't like Weatherby too much...but if the Sako is 800 and the Weatherby around 6-700..excluding the use of NEW MATH..it sounds like the Weatherby is the better deal?

pyledriver, go to Weatherby's website and familiarize yourself with the differences between a Mark V and a Vanguard. Also, please re-read all my posts. If it still doesn't make sense, let me know.

I just got in from the range from shooting my Accumark in 257 wby. 3, 3 shot groups for a total average of .425 and 2c 5 shot groups that opened it up to .563". If I were to let it cool I'm sure it would have been even tighter. All groups were shot rapid fire. The Accumark was built to be extra accurate and it is.

The Sub-Moa Vanguard is far more than a cherry picked Vanguard. They have select components (aluminum bed block stock, adjustable trigger, etc) and are manufactured to a higher Weatherby's spec than the regular Vanguards which are good shooters on their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Hired Gun:
The Sub-Moa Vanguard is far more than a cherry picked Vanguard. They have select components (aluminum bed block stock, adjustable trigger, etc) and are manufactured to a higher Weatherby's spec than the regular Vanguards which are good shooters on their own.

Another one falls for the only thing Weatherby is good at: marketing hype!!!!

All Howas (and that's what Vanguards are) come with user adjustable triggers.

A Bell & Carlson Weatherby style stock with an aluminum bedding block sells for $200 at Midway USA.

I can make my own sub MOA Howa for $500 w/o the need for any gunsmithing. Wait, I already have!

As for sub MOA Vanguards being made to a "higher standard", I hope you have concrete evidence of that. Like a letter stating so from Howa (not Weatherby), if that is to be believable.

I don't know anyone that works at Howa or Weatherby but it says on their web page that the Vanguards are built to Weatherby specifications that are supposed to be a little higher or more stringent than Howa's are regularly made. No concrete evidence. Do you have any that shows the only difference is the sticker on the stock and Weatherby engraving on the receiver? I have a buddy with a Smith & Wesson 1500 that is totally deluxe but is a mediocre shooter at best. If all the versions of the Howa were lined up and the only defference was the name engraved on the side I still would pay $100 more for the one with the Weatherby name on it. More pride of ownership and improved customer support is what I would be getting for my extra money. If your home made sub moa doesn't shoot to spec you have to figure it out your $elf. If the Weatherby sub-moa doesn't do it the will make it do it no matter what it takes. New barrel, new action, bedding job, heck a whole new gun if need be. My other buddy who ownes about 10 weatherby's has had the factory refinish a couple blem stocks, and rebed a couple rifles free of charge that were over 20 years old that he didn't even buy new. I know this first hand is Weatherby cares and really does deliver top quality. I live near a nationally known big dog gunsmith who only does Remington 700's and his rifles start at 2500 based on your action and he won't guaranty any better than sub moa with hunting loads. Sure he will wip up some weeny 2600 fps loads that shoot 1/2 inch or better but what gun won't shoot good with squib loads.

I have recently heard that some still believe Howa still makes the Mark V's. They do not. In 1996 Weatherby awarded the contract to build the Mark V's to Saco Defence Inc in Maine. The won they contract based on quality. No proof other than Weatherby press releases. For all I personaly know they could be built in caves in Afganistan. I do know my Weatherby's are of extreme quality. My Accumark bears nicly on all 9 lugs. If you do it without a load they show very light contact and only a bit here and there. I only neck size my loads so I have a bit of resistance when I close my bolt handle so when I blued my lugs the all had nice contact.

They are good at more than marketing. They put out some fine rifles.

quote:

The Sub-Moa Vanguard is far more than a cherry picked Vanguard. They have select components (aluminum bed block stock, adjustable trigger, etc) and are manufactured to a higher Weatherby's spec than the regular Vanguards which are good shooters on their own

Taken from the weatherby wesite

quote:

We hand-pick factory test-fired targets with a maximum of .75 inch MOA so we can be certain of our .99 inch or less MOA guarantee.

It sounds to me like weatherby hand picks the MOA vanguards from the regular production vanguards

If I had $650 and wanted a Weatherby I'd buy a used MK V....or I'd get a regular Vanguard and some reloading equipment.

I think it's absurd for them to put such a high price tag on a rifle that generally shoots that well anyway.

I'd rather spend the money on a Tikka...In fact I did do that.
My $450 T3 308win will put most cheap hunting ammo into 1.0-1.5MOA and every premium ammo I've tried will do better than 1MOA, most at about 0.75MOA and factory match ammo at 0.5MOA.
I put $450 into the gun and $200 into a cheap Leupold VX-I and I get just as accurate, if not more accurate, rifle with a smoother bolt and it weighs less than an unscoped Vanguard (which is nice to me, others like more weight).

HP Shooter , a MOA Vanguard IS substantially less money than a Sako . As far as Tikka and Sako go , in my mind they have a long way to go to restore confidence in their products , after their little shit steel/exploding episode .

Yes , I presumed the MOA stock was a B&C , but it still looks like an OK deal to me . You can buy the bottom line Vanguard model from a local dealer here for $360 . Add the B&C stock and you are up to $560 . So for roughly a hundred dollar bill extra you are getting a hand picked barreled action with an accuracy garuntee . I see quite a few fellows on this board spending way more than $100 to get their rifles shooting well. I don't believe the bottom of the line Tikka stock is as good as the B&C .

There are also a few minor differences between the Vanguard and Howas . For one , all of the Vanguards I have looked at in mainline gunshops(not wally world versions) have safetys that lock the bolt shut (which I much prefer) . The Howas I have looked at do not .

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
HP Shooter , a MOA Vanguard IS substantially less money than a Sako . As far as Tikka and Sako go , in my mind they have a long way to go to restore confidence in their products , after their little shit steel/exploding episode .

Yes , I presumed the MOA stock was a B&C , but it still looks like an OK deal to me . You can buy the bottom line Vanguard model from a local dealer here for $360 . Add the B&C stock and you are up to $560 . So for roughly a hundred dollar bill extra you are getting a hand picked barreled action with an accuracy garuntee . I see quite a few fellows on this board spending way more than $100 to get their rifles shooting well. I don't believe the bottom of the line Tikka stock is as good as the B&C .

There are also a few minor differences between the Vanguard and Howas . For one , all of the Vanguards I have looked at in mainline gunshops(not wally world versions) have safetys that lock the bolt shut (which I much prefer) . The Howas I have looked at do not .

My only point was to illuminate the marketing hocus-pocus that Weatherby plays.

I never compared a sub MOA Vanguard with a Sako 75. I compared apples to apples by pitting the 75 against the Mark V.

I've owned a Howa 1500 and a Sako 75. I no longer own then not because they were poorly made or inaccurate, but only because I needed to sell them to finance other rifles that fit my needs and aesthetic sense better.

I see no compelling reason to buy the tarted up Weatherby version of the Howa. And likewise I see no compelling reason to buy a Mark V over the several other choices in its price range. Hell, a Sauer 202 is a better buy than a Mark V for the same $.

To each his own, I guess.

HP I read your posts the first time around. I'm probably being narrow-minded here, but a comparison of a Weatherby Mark V and a Sako 75 is not what I was looking for. That's why I said you were comparing apples to oranges. I will go to the Weatherby site and read up on thier products though...

You seem to be a Sako afficionado, that's fine with me but I'm a little leery of 'em because I like my eyesight and current facial structure (as ugly as it may be). I know Sako has a good reputation otherwise.

I'm still in the 'information gathering stage' at this point, so ALL input is greatly appreciated! I guess the difficulty lies in me being cheap, haha! Basically I have to be..
I'd like to have a rifle built with all the features and aesthetics that I like, but after all this IS a hunting rifle so I feel like I shouldn't go TOO nuts here.

So far I think the SubMOA is gonna stay on my list of possibles. If I had the money I'd probably be looking at a Mark V SBGM as well!

Next I'll probably be looking into what to do to my Rem 700 to get where I want to be...but that's another thread!

pyledriver, what happenned to Sako could happen to anyone, at any time. All it takes is your barrel blank supplier (or his bar stock supplier, or the mill) making a mistake to have that happen to Remington, Savage, Howa, Winchester, CZ, Sauer, you name it.

In fact, based on my over ten years in manufacturing, I can tell you that the chances of this happening to Sako again are far less than they would to another company where this hasn't hapenned.

Peace Out.

Good point.. They're probably being more careful now than ever!

I don't really have any particular make that I'm AVERSE to, but just don't have much experience with anything other than Remington and Winchester. Considering the vast selection out there nowadays in rifles that are aesthetically what I want, I'm trying to weed through and find out which ones perform in the way I'd like.

I've had my Remington for about 10 years now, and before that I used a sporterized '03 Springfield. That rifle was a tack-driver! Wish I hadn't traded it off.. At any rate, my experience is actually somewhat limited which is why I'm here asking all these questions!

I did check out the Beretta site and saw some really nice Sakos! I think what I need to do is buy the best rifle I can afford and then maybe stock it in one of the HS stocks that I like so much! I've also considered buying the Rem SPS stainless, doing the trigger, and re-stocking in an HS..I think I'd be there!

PyleDriver
Simply remember that Weatherby dosn't make anything, they simply put there name on other companies products (and you know they shop for the lowest bidder).
If you ever need service, good luck dealing with Weatherby. There service dept has a "you bought the POS, it's your problem" attitude. Not a encourging thing when the gun fails to operate properly due to defective internals (Yep, they screwed me, once).

Wow, I sure didn't know THAT!

Customer service means a lot to me. I guess because I've been in that type of job for so long. I have very low tolerance for companies that don't treat customers well!

quote:

Simply remember that Weatherby dosn't make anything, they simply put there name on other companies products (and you know they shop for the lowest bidder).
If you ever need service, good luck dealing with Weatherby. There service dept has a "you bought the POS, it's your problem" attitude. Not a encourging thing when the gun fails to operate properly due to defective internals (Yep, they screwed me, once).

Weatherby contracts are driven by a lot more than just the bottom line. Quality and on time delivery, rate far higher than cost alone. If low price was the main issue they would be made in China.

As far as warranty why don't you tell us your story. Were your expectations realistic? I have yet to ever need Weatherby customer service myself but I have a couple freinds who have. They both got new barrels and their rifles bedded free of charge due to an accuracy issue. Both are tack drivers now. The other had two deluxe stocks refinished that the clear cracked on. He bought the rifles used and Weatherby didn't care. They were not about to have any defective looking deluxes roaming around. Another freind needed a replacement barrel on his very used and burnt out 257WBY and it only cost him $125 freight and all. Recently WalMart cut loose a bunch of Vanguards for $200. Turns out that they had real heavy triggers. Weatherby was stepping up with free trigger work to fix the quality issue if you sent your rifle in or if you wanted to do it yourself they will send you the parts.

I have some mighty fine shooting Sako, Remingtons and Rugers but from now on it's nothing but Weatherby's for me.

quote:

The won they contract based on quality. No proof other than Weatherby press releases.

So what else would you expect them to say in a weatherby press release?

Shot rapid fire in the rain in swirling gusty windy conditions. Had to stop when target fell off the plywood. Mine is not a Sub-Moa. It's a regular USA built production Weatherby rifle. My proof in on paper.

My 1960's era German 300WBY shoots in the 2's with Partitions. Looks like a tradition of excellence. How does your superior rifle shoot?

Hired Gun
Soft sears in the Orian (very common problem with them at that time), gun started doubling within 4 months of NIB and had never seen anything but skeet loads.
Weatherby's response "10-12 weeks from when we get the gun. NO we won't ship parts to you or your gunsmith. The work has to be done here, and no we don't care that your bird season starts in a month". BTW, it took 6 weeks to get the shipping box from them.
Was I realistic, expecting to have them do in 4 weeks what my smith could do while I waited (install a new part)? Hard to say now, because after waiting 3 weeks for the box I traded it in on a Browning GTI that's still going strong.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:
pyledriver, what happenned to Sako could happen to anyone, at any time. All it takes is your barrel blank supplier (or his bar stock supplier, or the mill) making a mistake to have that happen to Remington, Savage, Howa, Winchester, CZ, Sauer, you name it.

In fact, based on my over ten years in manufacturing, I can tell you that the chances of this happening to Sako again are far less than they would to another company where this hasn't hapenned. ...

I'll begin by saying I agree with everything in the above quote.

That said, the "Exploding SAKOs" were just terrible and my sympathy goes out to the folks maimed and crippled by them.

But, the huge issue for me was the "Lack of Response" from the SAKO/Beratta Management. They allowed the Exploding SAKOs to remain in the delivery pipeline for many months(6?, 9?) after they knew the problem existed. Their lack of notification to the Distributors and Retail Sellers is simply inexcuseable.

Back when the British owned S&W, they snuggled up to the Moscow Bill and algore administration. American firearms purchasers that were very loyal to S&W simply quit purchasing from them - until - the company changed hands which resulted in "new Management". Today the S&W loyal customers are back and if you actually handle one of the new S&Ws, you will notice their firearms are better than they were ever made in the past.

If people continue to support the current SAKO/Beretta Management by purchasing their products, then the same poor decision makers, who don't care if the rifle they sold you blows you up, who are Managing "The World's Oldest Firearms Maker" are rewarded.

HP: I share your sentiments but around here, if you were to say that "Weatherbys walk on water" someone would say, yeah, that's because they can't swim.

I think we can safely postulate that today's riflemakers ALL make inherently accurate rifles. This place is replete with images of Savages, Winnies, Weatherbys, Howas, Customs, even Remingtons ( sorry I couldn't help that that shoot well below MOA right out of the box. I own at last count five Weatherby rifles and they are all sub half MOA, and I really can't tell the difference between a MKV, Accumark, Ultramark etc.

I bought my son a Vanguard in 3006, mainly because it was very cheap (250 at the Pensacola, Florida Wal-Mart on sale) and Howas make good solid rifles.

The darned thing shoots, placing factory WW, Federal Premium and my handloads ALL within 1" of each other, with the Power Points at an incredible 3/8". I'm sure some of you can truthfully say that you've experienced similar results with your particular brand of rifle.

The SUB MOA Vanguards are "cherry picked" and stocked with a high quality stock that might make them shoot even better, and they sure as hell look better and to some, aesthetics plays a part in selecting a firearm-- It does to me.

But the facts are that for the money (340 for a standard Vanguard Synthetic and about 500 for a "Sub-MOA at Wal-Mart on special order), you just can't beat them. Moreover, There is currently no litigation-nor has there ever been ( recalls yes) against Vanguards and you don't have to worry about glued on bolt handles with suspect safeties and guns that blow up as is the case with other brands. Are the Sub-MOAs worth the money? The marketplace will surely tell us, but the standard Vanguard surely is. jorge

Hired Gun, your post (posted 25 March 2005 06:48)....very well "PLACED" or "NICE SHOT"

Based on the Vanguards and Howas we get in Australia I would prefer a Vanguard simply because to my eye they are a nicer looking rifles and I like Wby style stocks.

I am repeating what I have been told a few times and that is that while computers like Toshiba might have hard discs and other components made by the same manufacturer as some cheap brand, the difference is that when they do the Toshibas the reject box is full at the end of the day and it is empty for the other brand. Perhaps a similar thing happens with Vanguard and Howa.

As a side note the Vanguard is now the biggest selling rifle in Australia. However, I suspect that is a combination of appearance and the fact that guns/ammo/gun gear importer than is the also the Wby agent is the biggest such company in Australia and has very agressive marketing.

Sakos are way down in price since the blow ups and mainly because the actions opened like a flower. Two of our major barrel makers had the steel problem with the barrels splitting full length. But the split did not carry through to the actions.

Mike

Mike,
Are these Sub-MOA rifles what we're getting standard over here as the Fibreguard? Also a penny for your thoughts on the Vanguards in 257Weatherby? Cheap as chips, but is it worth it with the 24" barrel?
Cheers...
Con

Con

I don't think we are getting the sub MOA rifles. But I don't know if it really matters that much since it is will only be based on a few shots. Over the years I have owned about 20 Mark Vs and have been directly involved with just as many and in my experience the target that comes with a Mark V does not mean anything as to how the rifle will turn out. In other words if one Mark V had a target with a 3 shot group of 1/2" and another was 1.25" I would not walk across the road to get the rifle with the 1/2" target.

I would have two reservations on the Vanguard in 257. One of course is the 24 inch barrel and that might play havoc with your mind . A bit hard on the ears as well.

Secondly, good accuracy with Wby freebore is very dependent on the freebore diameter being very close to bullet diameter. My experience with Wby has been that the "you get what you pay for" seems to generally hold true and I am not sure if the Vanguard would be a good as even the cheapest Mark V, that is, the Synthetic.

Having said that, there has been a few posters on 24HourCampFire with the Vanguards in 257 and they have reported very good accuracy.

Of course for the difference in price between the Vanguard and even the Synthetic Mark V you could go close to having a Tobler or Maddco barrel supplied and chambered.

Mike