I have the opportunity to trade an older Rem. Mod. 700 (270 Win.)for a practically new Mod. 70 Super Shadow (270 WSM). I have never even held a Super Shadow much less fired one. Any first hand comments, experience, and opinions on these rifles will be helpful and appreciated. Also, I have no experience with the 270 WSM, so any comments on this caliber will also be helpful.

I bought a .270 wsm super shadow for christmas. the "sorta" crf extracter lost spring tension at about 250 rds, now I have not heard of any one else mentioning this so I'm guessing it was a fluke. Across my Oehler the .270wsm runs just as fast as advertised- it's not hype. I like the gun well enough to say that I'd buy another (.300wsm) but I would not trade a decent 700 for one.

I bought one from Walmart about a year ago and I must say I have been impressed. Now I'm a pre64 M70 fan so I like walnut and steel...and this ain't it. But I do like the weight and balance of this rifle and it has been surprisingly accurate. It's very functional... feeds well, handles well, shoots well. For the price, I think it's a good deal.

I like mine alot. it shoots well and performs as advertised with factory loads ( 270 WSM about 3250 with fact. 130's)on the chrono. For the price I don't think there is a better choice on the market today. IT AINT PRETTY THOUGH! I would think twice about trading a good 700 too ! Nothing wrong with the Winnie, but the same is true for Rem.

The new style stock winchester has come out with has got to be the most butt-ugly chunk of plastic I've seen hung on a gun in a little while, I would want to replace it ASAP. The 270 WSM is in my opinion the finest new cartridge around. The 2 I've experienced were extremely accurate. I humbly beg to seriously disagree that the 270 win is anywhere near the 270 WSM. Loaded with max loads in both the WSM is a good 200 fps better. I have loaded for at least 5 270 win and it is indeed a marvelous round, it is not however ballistically near the 270 WSM unless you consider 200 fps close......DJ

Dispaintless,

The 270 win is not to far from a 270 WSM ( according to the data that I have ). There is only a 15 to 75 fps difference in the data that I have.

The 270 WSM loaded w/ 130 grn bullets is normally in the 3200-3300 fps range. W/ the 270 win you can get 3215-3230 fps w/ the same weight bullet.

The 270 WSM loaded w/ 150 grain bullets is good for a hair better than 3000 fps. I have loaded the 270 win. to 3015 w/ 150 grners.

I dont doubt that you can over load it and achieve better velocity but when we get into ballistics and Trajectory, The 270 WSM is not that much different at all. You are not going to get any flatter or group any tighter w/ a 270 WSM.

Reloader

In the 270 win if you are getting over 3250fps out of 130's you are overloading this cartridge. Quickload shows that to acheive 3250 in the 270win (RL-22) pressure would approach 70,000psi. Factory loads are nowhere near this level. The 2004 Federal catalog lists 4 loads for the 270 130 grain none of which exceed 3060fps. They list a load for the 270 WSM at 3300. A cautious reloader typically can slightly exceed factory velocities but not by 200fps in anything approaching safe pressures. I've reloaded for 5 270's and I've been able to slightly exceed Federals velocity with reloads in the 270 win and get just over 3100 with safe pressures. In the 270 WSM just over 3300 is easily acheivable with 130gr bullets. In the WSM 3200 is easily achievable with 140 grains. Just over 3000 with 140's is about all I've been able to safely acheive in normal barrel lengths with the 270 win. So again, with comparable safe pressures the 270 WSM is a 200fps better cartridge than the 270 winchester. The 270 winchester is a fantastic cartridge it doesn't need to be made into something it's not.......DJ

I never said 3250 w/ a 130 grner. in 270 win, I said 3215-3230 fps. Just look at the Hdy. Light Mags, they claim 3215 and that is factory ammo. I have shot 130s over 3200 and I have never seen any pressure problems.

I load 150s at 3015 and still, no pressure signs.

I never said I could beat a WSM w/ the 270 win but, you are not going to beat me by 200 fps. You are surely not going to have much better ballistics.


The fact of the matter is: Which rifle is better? Well, if you ask just about any target shooter or reloader, he would tell you to hang on to that Model 700.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Felcher,

Cant speak directly to the SuperShadow (I for one like how they look), but I can speak to the 270WSM. I bought a Browning A-Bolt last year and have been very pleased with gun and calibre. Filled all 5 of my deer tags (85-325 yards), 2 rams, and 3 turkeys (rifle is so accurate that I could shoot them at the base of the neck and have virtually no meat damage). Got a 300WSM recently that I will be taking to Africa next month on a plains game hunt.

To all who replied: Thanks for the input. I'm going to shoot a few through this ugly rifle this weekend, and make my decision of whether to trade or not based on it's performance (all be it with factory ammo). At this point I'm kinda leaning toward making the trade for the following reasons:
I have 3 other rifles chambered in .270 Win including one other Model 700 (in much better condition than the one for trade).

I only have one other Mag. caliber rifle (300 Wby Mag) which is a Mod. 70 fthrwt. and is purely BRUTAL to shoot, and no doubt is the next gun I'll get rid of.

Hey "RELOADER", what exactly do you mean by the comment at the bottom of your posts referring to ballistic tips and trouble tracking?

Felcher,

About the comment at the bottom of my post, there is always that debate over which bullets perform better on game. You have your "Penetration and low Expansion" crowd and you have your "Explosive, Devastating, and Quick Killing" crowd. I have seen several game animals shot with the tough bullets such as Failsafes and Barnes X. Every time an animal was shot w/ one the animal hardly reacted at impact and blood was very little if any (Velocities less than 3000). After several lost animals and some very lucky times that we stumbled upon them, I decided that these bullets were much to strong for animals smaller than medium elk. I started (along w/ sev. buddies) to shoot the Nosler Balistic tips and the results were so amazing, I cant say enough about them. Almost every animal I have seen shot w/ them fell at impact or stumbled and only ran a few yards w/ blood everywhere.

You see, w/ tough bullets the energy goes right out of the deer because they lack expansion. W/ Explosive bullets (Of a descent weight) the energy is absorbed completely by the animal and the death is very quick. The tough bullets were intended for tough game and I am sure w/ Moose and Buffalo they have their place but, on average sized game they are pathetic.

I like to see game suffer as little as possible and I like to recover every animal shot. We owe it to the game we persue to take them as cleanly as we can.

To those who dont like bloodshot meat, If you are not a deer rib eater, just shoot them behind the shoulder.

Most of the Hunters that bash Balistic tips have never used them or have only used them once. They really dont have any room to Talk.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Bal. Tips have some of the best BCs out and their accuracy is simply amazing.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Reloader,
Here's my results/concerns with Bal. tips:
16 whitetail deer were harvested (none lost) with my rifles/reloads this past season.
Rifles: Brown. A-bolt, Rem. 700 (both .270 win.)
Load:New Rem. brass, CCI-200 primer, 58.5 gr. H4831, 130 gr. Nos. Bal. tips.
Deer ranged from 75 - 170 lbs. field dressed
Shots were from 75 to 200 yrds.
5 deer were shot in the neck, the remainder were through the ribcage/shoulder area, from various angles to straight broadside.
Of these 16 deer, I recovered 7 bullets/or pieces of bullet.
Of the deer that were shot in the ribcage/shoulder area none ran over 80 yrds. from point of impact.
I agree with your comments that these are destructive bullets, however, on 6 of these deer there was no exit wound and no bloodtrail whatsoever. Had shot placement been less than desirable, there was no blood to trail. For this reason, I am considering changing to Hornady interbonds or Nos. Accubonds, in hopes of retaining the rapid expansion and massive internal destruction while achieving an exit wound to allow for some bleeding. I too am not concerned with a little meat loss due to a destructive bullet, I can pick around whats left of the deer and still get more meat from it than from one that I could'nt find at all. I'm just concernced with the lack of exits on almost half of the deer shot. I guess this should have been a seperate thread, but I'm interested in what others think of these results and in the performance on game of the Interbonds and Accubonds.

felcher,

If you will notice, I said "of a descent weight," I meant better than 150 grains. In that 270 you should try 140 or 150 grain NBTs. you will get your exit wounds w/ those heavier bullets.

I have never seen a NBT, of 150 grains or more, not exit an animal. The deer fell at impact almost every time and the most I have ever had one run w/ NBTs was 25 yards and he weighed 240#. The Blood trails look like they were poured from a bucket.

The Nosler Balistic Tip is the best bullet on the market.
That is a strong statment and it was made after seeing the results on dozens of occations.

I think that the 150 grners and up are the best weights for this bullet design. The smaller ones would be suitable for small deer and antelope.

Now you might have good luck w/ the 140s in that 270. I have a friend that loves them.

In 284 and 308 cal rifles the 150-180s perform great.

I cant say enough about their performance, from the range to the field.

Reloader

Reloader,I'm wondering where you are shooting these deer? If you are speaking of those little swamp deer, I can see your point but I'd take exception to using bal. tips on the 300# or better whitetails of the north central states and Canada.

I am not sure why anyone would buy a "new" winchester or remington for that matter.

Reloader,
I really don't want to go to 150 gr. bullets but the 140's I will try. You did'nt mention your thoughts on the interbonds or accubonds.

Smallfry, What gun manufacture, would you choose for a new gun?

Well, there are few thats for sure. I dont have a problem buying a CZ new. Now days, I dont buy factory rifles because I dont get what I want when I do. Too me, not getting what I want is one of the biggest waists of money. Also, most major manufactures have some quality control issues that I just wont accept anymore. I guess I am just getting picky . I spend probably 2-4 times the amount on a rifle now, or I spend less over new gun by buying a decnt used one to start with. Eather way I get closer to what I want. I have learned over the years that half my time was waisted... buying junk, selling junk, putting few rounds through junk, running around in circles, and loosing money in the whole shabang. Now I buy less, shoot more, and spend the rest on hunting.



If you compair the quality of say.... a 721, a "s" type 700, or a pre letter rem 700, to one today, you would be shocked.These 700s can be had at what?.... 350-300$, and many have 100 rounds or less in them. Or look at the pre 64... most can be had for 750?$ and that is a mighty fine rifle.



I think many people become paranoid about buying a used gun, they think it is worn out or been handled to much. Well... let me tell you something... most of the used rifles I have brought home, I have cycled the action over the course of the following 2 or 3 days, 5-10 times the total amount the previous owners have in total, and thats just to do some rail work on it



. Regardless, enjoy the sport.

Smallfry Very interesting reply. Thanks for the imput.

Felcher,

I took five deer last year (3 with 270WSM and 2 with 300WSM) all with ballistic tips. 4 were shot behind the shoulder and 1 in the neck. I had complete penetration on all 5 deer. I was using the 130gr in the 270WSM and the 180gr in the 300WSM.

Hang onto that 700 and rebarrel if it's worn out.

The last deer that I shot with ballistic tips was with a 280 Remington and 140 grain bullets.The bullet blew up on entrance on ribs and fragmented and did not penetrate.The deer went about 90 yards and left no blood trail. Using heavier than needed bullets so they penetrate is loosing some of your ballistics.I never had a problem when using old style Corelokts, I won't be using ballistic tips while hunting anymore, I haven't been impressed. I too am interested in the Interbonds.

BTs are like using 22 centerfire rounds on deer/pigs... sure, it will WORK, but with it FAILS it's horrible.


First and foremost, allow me to explain that
1: BT's ALL lack sectional density (generaly the highest SD is ~2.8, which is VERY high for BT's, with between .220 and .250 being the norm.

2: BT's are designed to upset quickly... which is a HORRIBLE design for a low SD bullet, as they will upset quickly in relation to SD (EEBE)

3: BTs are great target bullets, and will show you how well a rifle will shoot.

4: BTs, IMNSHO, are animal cruelty in motion, when used on game. I have YET to see a BT exiting a medium sized hog (100-150) or larger, an east texas deer if body shot (that's a whopping 75-100 lbs for a LARGE east texas deer) or even an exotic ram or 3.... from the 300 wsm, 300 win, 7 mag, 3 different 708s, a couple 270s and a 257 roberts. Sure, it mught blow a HUGE FRICKING BLOODSHOT CRATER of broken fragments of the bullet and some bone, but make no mistake, this is all dogfood now.

What I HAVE seen BT's do is
1: for stand hunters, allow outstanding bullet placement... then again, STAND SHOOTERS

2: shatter and upset withing 1" of entry... making a fistula ..

3: not exit neck shots made on hogs... oh, let me tell you the EXTREME low end.... a 45# "football" shot in the NECK at ~75-80 yards, with a 7 rem mag, with 150 gr NBTS... the load chronoed (i developed it) at roughly 3020fps... Certain the neck was broken.... BUT THE BT DID NOT EXIT...

okay, that's a hard shot, perhaps the distance and velocity was bad....

how about a 708, with 140s at 2700 (in a savage striker pistol) off shooting sticks, at ~110 yards (about 117 long steps for me)on a slightly quartering away shot, bind the ribs, aimed for the offside of the neck....

GRAPLE JELLY for about 8 to 10 inches,,, and about 10% recovered jacket... no exit wound... sow only weighed about 90-95 lbs (meat pigs)


In short, IMNSHO, BT's should not be pointed at game, as you wish for a humane kill and for no meat waste .


So, what do I do? my dear and pig rifles are from .358 and up... generally a 376 steyr or 416 of some flavor, unless the 500 jeffe-ry comes out... I trade big holes for speed... and ALWAYS have exit wounds, that one can "eat right up to the hole"

jeffe

on teh orignal question...



I generally detest plastic stocks... but the supershadow, after holding one, bedding it for a friend, and shooting it, surprised me...



it's comfy to shoot, and surprisingly "big" enough for me..



besides it says "winchester" not remington.. which would provoke me into the trade



jeffe

top

I shot a 500 pound Russian w/ a 150 grain NBT at 3100 fps. The boar never made it out of his tracks. I Have shot deer in the 250# range and they only made it 25 yards or less. Usually they fall at impact.

YOU GUYS CANT MAKE ANY ASUMPTIONS IF YOU HAVE ONLY TRIED THEM ON ONE OR TWO OCASSIONS!

I have seen their performance on dozens of animals.

And about those 22 center fire loads, there is a Varmint NBT and a big game NBT. The varminters explode. The others have a thick base which gives penetration.

As I said in a previous post, I like to take game as quickly and effectively as possible. The only way to do that is to transfer just about every ounce of energy to the vitals of the game. W/ "Hard to Destruct" bullets, most of your energy just went out the other side of the animal and its time to get several buddies and some good flashlights for the long grueling tracking job. Just hope you get lucky when that small hole pluggs up w/ blood clots.

If you all want penetration, why not just shoot FMJs. It seems like some people just want penetration.


Felcher, I have not used the Interbonds or Accubonds yet but, I have seen several post on their performance and weight retention, along w/ expansion, was great. I think I will give them a try in my fast loads.

Reloader

To the comment on core-locts, I have hardly ever had an exit w/ a rem CL bullet.

Reloader

Hey reloader,
I saw in the "Optics" catagory that you have a Burris Fullfield II on a WSM. Are you satisfied with the eye relief and the low light capabilities? Also, do you have the Bal. Plex, if so, how do you like that reticle and does POI change when you change (increase) the magnification power using the dot for aiming at 300 yrds.?
By the way, I'm gonna swap for that 270 WSM Superugly Shadow and am gonna order some 130 gr. Interbonds and some 140 gr.Bal. Tips to try in it and the .270 Win.

I replied in optics but, I will here too.

I like the Burris Fullfield II quite a bit. It has alot more features than scopes of far higher prices and It seems to be very durable. I like the eyepiece turning concept.

Shortly I intend on trying it at 300 and 400 to see how close POI is. My load will be 70 grns R19 w/ Hdy 165 grn SSTs in my Savage mod 16WW 300 WSM.

If that load works well w/ the Bal. Plex, I think I will take it on a Rocky Mtn. Mulie hunt next year but, It is a close toss up between that rifle and "Old Dependable" (Mod. 700 7mm Rem Mag w/ 5.5-16.5x44 Nik. Mon). I just dont know which one I am going to take, they both shoot superbly.

I would love to use that Bal. Plex on a long Rocky Mtn. shot but, that 16.5 power Nikon is hard to beat on long shots.

Reloader

I have shot a lot of deer with the older core-lokt's and only remember one that was still in the deer and it was poking through the skin on the far side. I don't believe recent manufacture have the same jacket design. I too have a Burris Fullfield 2 and think it is a lot of scope for the money.