Hi Guys, Recently a debate took place between myself and a mate, he reckons a 7x57 loaded with a 160gr Nosler Partition will not penetrate clean through both shoulders of a kudu bull at 150 metres. I think it would but cant test until next week. Any input gentleman?
Thanks in advance.

in either case i think the kudu with die

Butchloc, I agree however the argument is that his 308 win will do it but my 7x57 wont.

Didn't I read somewhere that Bell shot completly thru an elephant skull with a 7x57?
My only doubt would be the choice of bullets as the NP would lose half or more of it's weight going thru the first shoulder. Just a thought.
And to all of you that worship at the NP altar, don't jump on me as I'm there too.

Yip Bell did indeed but he used solid bullets.

In September 2010 I shot an nyala on the point of the shoulder at 80 yds with a 160gr Nosler Accubond. The Accubond ended up in the hide on the offside.


If you look closely at the picture you will see the lump on the shoulder. My load for this hunt was the 160 gr Accubond loaded to 2600fps muzzle velocity. The recovered bullet weighed 107 grains.

To your question, into a kudu shoulder, IMO no, it will not penetrate through both shoulders. But like others have said, you will have a dead kudu.

BigBullet, nice Nyala. My loads clock 2550 fps.

The argument is academic, rife with personal bias and moot until it is tested, and you didn't mention what bullet in the 308.

You are talking about roughly identical bullet weights - plus or minus 5 gr, almost the same size - within 0.024" with pretty much identical velocities - 2500- 2700fs, take your pick, so the striking energy will be very close, discounting the difference in BC, as you could work up loads that have identical energy a specifed range.

Who cares about penetration through and through as long as the bullet penetrates deep enough to damage the organs, disrupt the blood flow and anchor the aminal...the critter will die...

Isn't that the objective?

All the rest is whiskey fumes around the campfire, personal bias and whatnot.

Kudu are large, tough and not easily killed...I would pick a larger caliber even though I have no doubt BOTH the 308 and the 7x57 would do the job.

Problem is whether or not EITHER caliber or the bullet would penetrate fully depends on a ton of factors...sometimes you would get full petration, sometimes not...hit a shoulder blade or knuckle or two and probably not...just miss the bones and probably yes.

You're from SA, I would expect you might have taken a few Kudu and know others who have, you should have a wealth of information available to you...I envy you for sure.

Set up a hunt and you and your friend see what happens, that's the only way to know for sure...

In any event you will have the enjoyment of Kudu steaks whatever the outcome of the bullet test...then you can argue just which steak on which animal tastes better...and which steak sauce does it justice, and if it is better rare, medium or well.

Luck

FOOBAR Yes whiskey fumes, but thats what us humters do around a campfire, and talk shit

lal,
Thank you, I was fortunate to take such a beautiful beast.

Absofrikinglutly...that's why God made campfires and whiskey...to roast our meat, beat our chests and get pleasantly wasted...for many years after...AND teach the younger generation what it was like "back in the day" when men were men and...well you know... Hahahahahahahah


Yeah, nice horns...Nyala have such strange, and beautiful coloration.
Show us the "who's right" pictures for those of us that can only dream of hunting Africa.

About the only thing I can relate to is moose, elk and a couple of Brangus bulls that went wild and took out a few cowboys and a ranch p/u...none of which even come close to a Kudu OR Africa.

Luck

Can't say about 160gr but a 175gr Nosler Partition will at 200yds. One shot thru and thru
heart destroyed. Did not recover bullet so have no idea what weight loss was. I have found that the Partition normally loses the front lead back to the partition. I actually have one round that was found under the skin on the off side with both parts of bullet together. The front lead is perfectly mushroomed and the rear section jacket is peeled back perfectly. It was a 180gr 30-06 Partition removed from a Kudu at about 50/75yds. I have used Partitions almost exclusively for over 50 years in a myriad of rifles and found them to be most uniformly accurate and effective. I have used them on 8 safaris to take most plains game up to and including Eland with a 7x57,30-06 and 375H&H. Have also taken one Leopard with them. I don't waste time and effort looking for a better bullet.

quote:

My only doubt would be the choice of bullets as the NP would lose half or more of it's weight going thru the first shoulder

Beeman, at higher velocities out of a 7 Mag or STW I'd be inclined to agree with you. But out of a 7 x 57 it migh hold together better then that. Only one way to find out.

I don't know about kudu, but I DO know about moose and the 7x57. My first ever Canadian bull moose was shot in 1968 at 180 yards distance where it was standing in the middle of a cut line.

It was shot in the left shoulder blade with a 139 grain Hornady cup 'n core spitzer handloaded by me into a case made from U.S. G.I. '06 brass. The load was a mild one...middle level of those from a bunch of loading books, and reduced by 2 grains of powder from that to allow for the smaller capacity of that thick brass.

I did not see or hear the bullet strike the animal. He stood for a moment (it seemed like a year at the time) and then he turned around in his own tracks and stood looking in exactly the opposite direction. So, I fired again. Again no indication, so I said to my partner, "Well he's either dead and doesn't know it yet, or I am missing him completely. Either way, no sense in firing any more." So then I sat down.

Almost immediately thereafter, he toppled over sideways and never twitched again.

Examination showed the second shot had struck the right shoulder blade in almost exactly the same spot the first shot had hit the left blade.

BOTH PENETRATED COMPLETELY THROUGH THE MOOSE AND EXITED THE OPPOSITE CHEST WALL, just behind the opposite shoulder blade. So far as I know, those bullets are still orbiting the earth.

Now, that was just with plain old pointed Hornady C'N C non-premium 139 gr. flat-base bullets.

I shot more moose after that and eventually went to 200 gr. .30 NPs...but it turned out they didn't kill a whit deader or faster.

I've never shot a moose with a .308, but I seriously doubt it could have done ANYTHING the 7x57 didn't do. I know the '06 I used later for another half-dozen moose didn't. As I lived on moose meat for several years, I eventually worked my way up to a .358 Norma Mag with 250 gr. RNs on moose, which seemed to kill a tiny bit faster...but not enough to matter much.

Fact is I've eaten every moose I ever fired a shot at, and the 7x57 was just as good in actual practice as anything else I ever used on them.

I suspect the same might be true on African antelope up to moose size.

The 175gr. NP will.
My youngest son shot his Cape Kudu this past June at 280 yards through the shoulders. Kudu took all of three steps and dropped. Complete pass through.

quote:

Now, that was just with plain old pointed Hornady C'N C non-premium 139 gr. flat-base bullets.

They may not be 'premiums' in the context of current projectile offerings, but they've always delivered premium performance for me.

Gentlemen, I appreciate all the input very much. I live in SA but to date I have only shot 3 kudu bulls and all were under 100m and they were headshots. I have been shooting/hunting most of my life but birdshooting is my passion. I have over 26 places within 150km radius of Port Elizabeth where I shoot birds and most farms I shoot birds on dont have anything bigger than bushbuck and impala and bushpig so these have been what I have hunted most over the years. Many thanks for the replies once again. Maybe a few more hunters have similar tales to share regarding their experiences with the 7x57.

LAL, here is my story for the campfire & some nice whiskey.

Your mate's 308 is this young buck full of spirit. He bosts at the big pub meant specially for hot calibers and claims that he scores on all the chicks because of his great reputation for deep penetration! The chicks swarm to him. But they keep whispering when they think he is not looking. He can't take it and he asks them, "What are you hot chicks whispering when you think I am not lookings".

The chicks look around a bit hessitent and say, "well.... all our grandmas and great grandmas keep talking about this cool dude who had incredible penetration & we wonder if you could be this legendary guy!" Our young buck 308 preens his feathers and quips, "Hey listen girls, I am a young buck, see. I ain't no penetrator of grandmas & great grandmas! Say, what's the name of this legend you talk of?"

The girls reply "some Greman guy called 7mm Mauser & 57 mm long".

The young 308 buck went pale & dropped in a faint!

The argument is moot, put a 180gr pill in the .308 or a 160 in the 7x57 and have at it. No animal in the world would know the difference. On paper the 7x57 should penetrate deeper, with all else being equal, but how often is all else equal?????

I have owned about a dozen 7x57s and several .308Wins. over the past 43 years and shot game with both. I have never seen the slightest difference in performance between them and they are my all-time favourite deer cartridges as they tend to be chambered in lighter rifles.

I have a VERY choice Brno-21H, a stone mint Brno ZG-47 shorty and a full custom Classic short sts Mod 70 in an Micky Edge plus my old HVA 4100 in a Brown Precision stock. The Brnos and HVA are 7s and the Winnie is a .308 which mates with my favourite combo gun, a Browing-Miroku Citori type III in 12-.308W, that I have had for over twenty years.

These are my "meat" guns for local deer and Grouse hunts and they are adequate for anything in BC, with appropriate bullets and a hunter who knows how to shoot game. Actually, two of the nicer Moose shot by colleagues of mine were dumped by Belgian BLRs in .308 with plain old "Imperial" ammo, back when I was still working in forest fire suppression and silviculture.

I have the longer barrelled Brno 22-H rifles rechambered to .280Rem., my choice as the "best" standard cartridge, but, the shorties remain in 7x57 and it certainly does the job!

I can say the few bullets from my 7x57 that didn't actually fully penetrate were definitly not 160 gr. Partitions! I would use that bullet on virtually any beast in North America if I had a good shot at not too great a distance.

Compared to Oryx, Zebra and Blue Widebeast I don't find Kudu all that tough. The three I have shot have all been rather 'delicate' and I assume they have a rather sensitive nervous system.

It depends what you hit on the way through and at what angle.

With either the .308/7x57 for Kudu I'd use a conventional cup and core 165/154 respectively.

years ago doing some bullet testing with a 175 grain Hornady RN in a 7 x 57, I was chronographing some loads... and using a large pine for a back stop out on Forest Service land...

I was chronographing those 175 gr RNs at about 1800 fps...when done, I went over and looked at the big pine that was being used as a back stop about 60 or 70 yds away...

it was 18 inches plus in diameter... .and from the looks of the back side of it, all those 175 grainers were punching right thru it...even at that low of a velocity...

of course I am a big fan of sectional density...

and this was only a pine tree... however if it can go thru 18 inches of pine at 70 yds or so...

I am sure it can do quite a bit of penetration thru an animal even at that low of a velocity...

certainly enough to be more than lethal... given proper shot placement...

I've culled Kudu and Red Hartebeest and even buffalo on one ocassion with a 7x57 and I have used both the 160 and 175 gr. Noslers, as I am a devout Nosler partition fan and with with a maximum handload you will get mostly pass throughs, and on ocassions I have broke both shoulders and got pass throughs..My 7x57 is a Brno 21 with a long throat and 06 length magazine and I can get 2900 FPS with a 160 and near 2700 FPS with a 175 by using a cupfull of H414. That may or may not make a difference as more speed can work against penetration, but the Nosler on many ocasions will blow off the frontal portion and give it considerable more penetration and that frontal portion exploding inside an animal is deadly...

I will also guarentee at long range the 7x57 will get you mostly exit holes as the bullet slows down and expansion is not as violent. This applies to most calibers.

As to the 308 vs. 7x57 its a tie, you can toss in the 30-06, 280, 7 mag, and a host of others as far as killing game in the field up to about 500 pounds IMO..the all work pretty well IMO...I see no difference until I get to the 338 Win or .375 H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

As to the 308 vs. 7x57 its a tie, you can toss in the 30-06, 280, 7 mag, and a host of others as far as killing game in the field up to about 500 pounds IMO..the all work pretty well IMO...I see no difference until I get to the 338 Win or .375 H&H

Ray - Are you sure you are not the ghost of Jack O'Connor in disguise?

In his book "The Hunting Rifle", pulished in about 1970, Jack says that exact same thing.

He and his wife, and Fred Huntington, took a 30-day Safari together. Elanor's armament was her favourite...a custom 7x57 Mauser. Fred carried a ".280 RCBS" (sort of a .280AI, IIRC), and Jack used a 7 m/m Rem Mag, They also had along a variety of other rifles. It was, I believe, Jack's 8th African Safari, during which he had used all sorts of cartridges including, of course, both the .30-06 and the 270, as well as the .308 Winchester.

He said they all performed, on African game up to about 1,500 pounds, exactly the same if one used good bullets and made good shots. Elanor shot 17 animals on that safari with 19 rounds, using her 7x57 and 175 grain bullets. None got away. 16 were one shot kills, the 17th got 3 rounds...the first of those three went through the animal's heart dead centre and exited the other side. The only reason she shot it twice more is that like many heart-shot animals it did not fall over immediately and started that characteristic heart-shot "death run"...so she pumped two more very rapid shots into it, the third as it was already on its way down.

One of her kills with her 7x57 was a beautiful kudu. A photo of her and it are in that same book.

Edited to add: Of course "beautiful kudu" is redundant. I don't think there has ever been an "ugly" kudu. My favourite African antelope is the Sable, but even the smallest "Lesser Kudu" is still gorgeous to me.

quote:

I don't think there has ever been an "ugly" kudu.

IIRC Mr O'Connor also once claimed the 7 X 57 actually out penetrated the 7mm Rem Mag on an elk hunt.
I can easily believe this under the right conditions!

Another comment of Jack's which I found very interesting (as there is another thread here on AR right now on rifles for Caribou) is that he shot a total of 18 caribou. Almost all of them were killed with the 130 grain Nosler Partition from a 22" barreled .270 Winchester custom of his. He did not find the 150s necessary on caribou.

Help me out here:

What is a long throated 7x57 ?

Or more importantly other than "americanized" versions of guns in this caliber was there ever such a thing as a "short throated" 7x57 ?

I have always said unless you move up at least a 100grs in bullet weight and a couple hundred feet persecond and 2 cailbers.

They well all work about the same.Given equal bullets.