I need a flat shooter out to 350, maybe 400 yards. The rifle will be a Savage or a Remington.

A Vanguard in 300 Wby has been suggested, but I'll have difficulty using, or altering the stock.

Which way should I go, nothing above is written in stone. I'm looking for a shooter.

Go this way,and get a 300WM.

Both the 7MM Mag and the .300 mags are worthy to 400 yards.....so it's a toss up there.

As to Remington or Savage.....IMO they both have sound reputations for accuracy....but in my history the Remington has fed and extracted and ejected flawlessly and I've had trouble with the savage....I don't have any savage centerfires here anymore....and likely won't either.....

The Savage accutrigger is a gigantic step in the right direction and their new feeding system of feeding from a single file might be a solution to past problems too.....I haven't tried it....but for me the Remington is still where I'd put my money!

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
I need a flat shooter out to 350, maybe 400 yards. The rifle will be a Savage or a Remington.

A Vanguard in 300 Wby has been suggested, but I'll have difficulty using, or altering the stock.

Which way should I go, nothing above is written in stone. I'm looking for a shooter.

Remington 300 or 7mm, both are long distance zappers.
Then get this and this..
I haven't played with the trigger yet, but the speedlock makes a big differance.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
I need a flat shooter out to 350, maybe 400 yards. The rifle will be a Savage or a Remington.

A Vanguard in 300 Wby has been suggested, but I'll have difficulty using, or altering the stock.

Which way should I go, nothing above is written in stone. I'm looking for a shooter.

What game will you be shooting with the rifle? For me that would be the important factor in my selection.Either will take big stuff with heavy bullets. If it were me and I was shooting medium size big game out to 400 yards I would pick the 7 Mag with a 140 or 150 grain bullet with a good Ballistic coefficent. You can also get to 400 yards with a number of standard cartridges with good handloads and plenty of range time. You will be able to use a lighter rifle and have less recoil. Quality range time with an accurate rifle ( that fits you properly)with good optics and good ammo can do great things out to 400 yards if you do your part when the time comes. Past 400 yards it is a whole new ball game

Tin Can,
I like either the 7MM or the 300. I have both in older model Remingtons and they both are zingers. I would however reconsider buying a new 700 due to the fact that the safety does not lock the bolt closed. Believe me if you are planning to use this rifle walking and hunting this non locking bolt is a hassle.
Regards, Keith

quote:

I would however reconsider buying a new 700 due to the fact that the safety does not lock the bolt closed. Believe me if you are planning to use this rifle walking and hunting this non locking bolt is a hassle.

This is true.....and let me add...it's a bad issue for Remington.....that said there is a M-70 type 3-position safety available for it....

Savage on the other hand has as standard a three position "front-back" sliding thumb safety.....they have come a long ways!

Let me play devil's advocate. WHat are you shooting now that you think a 7rm or 300wm will shoot "flatter" than? Either will shoot "flat" out to 400yds w/ a 200yd 0, within 3" of each other. The 300wm will give you more energy as well, but also more recoil. So what do you "need" to shoot at 400yds? For antelope & deer, either is more gun than needed but the 7rm makes more sense. If it's for elk, then I would opt for a 30mag over the 7rm if you are upto it.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
For antelope & deer, either is more gun than needed but the 7rm makes more sense. If it's for elk, then I would opt for a 30mag over the 7rm if you are upto it.

+1

- mike

either caliber will easily take elk and deer (and have been for over 40 years or so). just pick a good bullet and practice out to your max distance.

I personally own a 7mm Mag, but only have shot someone else's 300 Mag. The 7mm Mag is FAR easier on the shoulder from a recoil point of view. The 7mm Mag is a pleasure shooting, compared to the 300 Mag, for me anyway.
Both calibers have good bullets available.
As far as which rifle to buy, for me it would be a Remington 700, or a Weatherby Vanguard.
A magazine recently ran an accuracy test of the leading rifle makers, and the Weatherby Vanguard came out on top. So, after hearing about the article, I bought a Wby Vanguard in 223 Rem. To cut to the core of the issue, the thing is amazingly accurate, and I do love the Vanguard action, which incidentally was glass bedded at the factory before I got the rifle. I did a trigger job on it, and polishied the bore good with JB Bore paste before shooting it. I have shot a half dozen different loads in it that delivered three shot, 3/8" groups at 100 yards using a 20x scope. The rifle is a keeper.
Recently, Master Rifleman who posts here had a 25-06AI reamer for sale in our classifieds, for which I sent payment to him to get that reamer. Beings how I don't own a 25-05, now , I HAD to go buy a rifle to do the AI treatment to. I bought (ordered) a Weatherby Vanguard in 25-06 after considering a Remington and a Savage. The longest barrel Savage makes the 25-06 in is 22 inches, and that doesn't fit my pictures for a rifle in that chambering. The Weatherby comes glass bedded, with the barrel floating as opposed to the Remington hump in the forend, which is easily sanded out, but that was a consideration. The Wby 223 had a free floated barrel when I bought it. I wanted a Walnut stock too, as I prefer them to any synthetic stock for looks, and the Weatherby Vanguard comes with a Walnut stock, and a 24 inch barrel, which fits my ideas of a 25-06AI better than a 22 inch barrel. I'm not into stainless sporter rifles, so I wanted one that is blued, which supported buying the Vanguard too.
Here endeth the Gospel for the day...

Don

Hey Tin Can, I'm sure you can't go wrong with either Cartridge. I've had bof`um - like bof`um.

The concern about the 300WinMag having a bit more Recoil is true if you load it to it's full potential. That is why it is a heck of a cartridge. You can Down-Load if it bothers you.

If I was currently interested in real l-o-n-g distance, I'd go with the 300RUM. I've yet to see one that would not shoot well - by folks who had "NO" heavy Recoil experience. A silver dollar would easily hide the factory ammo groups I saw out of at least 2 dozen different 300RUM rifles.

The Remington Muzzle Brake is amazingly effective. Loud, but works great. I've never seen a first time user of a 7mmRemMag or a 300WinMag shoot it as well as those guys with their new 300RUMs.

Of course, the 300RUM is also a bit heavier and has a longer 26" barrel than the others. If it is for Stand Hunting, that would not be a concern. If it is for Roaming-Around (aka Spot & Stalk), then the 24" barrel, lighter rifles do better for me.
-----

You can't go wrong with anything you narrowed it down to though. Should be some good deals on them in the Jan-Feb time slot when most Seasons are closed down. That is when the Gun Shops need to reduce inventory and increase revenue. I've always done my best Trading/Buying then. And it gives you most of a year to get it outfitted and a good Load Developed.

Best of luck, which ever way you go.

If you're unsure just get a 30-06. 400 yards isn't a long poke for a cartridge with a 330 yard point blank range, and 180 grain bullets possess all the mass needed for effectively harvesting big game.

Bear in mind as a hunter and rifleman, I'm a duffer.

quote:

For antelope & deer, either is more gun than needed but the 7rm makes more sense. If it's for elk, then I would opt for a 30mag over the 7rm if you are upto it.

Those are the animals I hunt. My scores under 300 yards are 100%, beyond that quite poor- the mags were suggested to replace the "standard" cartridges I've been using.

I think it's a good idea, due to my NOT being able to do serious range time, handload, etc- basically not being able to really wring out any particular rifle. The recoil isn't an issue.

Thank you all for these great responses- they will really help me.

How about the best of both worlds... get a 7 mm STW or 7 RUM.

I've got a 30.06, 7mm Rem Mag, and a 300 RUM. I sold my 300 WM, not b/c I didn't like it, but I wanted to try something bigger...the RUM.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk at 400 yards with my 7mag. It is capable and so am I and I trust the bullets I load. Even a cow elk offers a generous kill zone.

I prefer Remington.

My 400 yard deer and antelope gun is a 6.5x284.

I have a 7mm Rem Mag and the only reason that it's still a 7 Mag is because it shoots my Barnes 140 grain TSX handload well and I live in Condor country.

Buy a 7mm, less recoil and better to shoot.

I bought a Stevens 200 in 7mm Rem. Mag. :



http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/stevens200_041106/index2.html

Was going to put a 338-06 barrel from Midway on it but decided to use the 7mm after shooting it.

Cost to convert this gun to 338-06 is approx. $280.00 for Adams & Bennet barrel, dies, nut wrench and Go-No gauges.

Broke in barrel with 1-clean-1-clean etc. for 5.

Then shot 5 rounds of new brass and the rifle shoots MOA with TSX 160. MOA the first 5 shots with no load development.

It is a very good rifle.

Took a razor blade and trimmed the plastic edges from the mould process. They are very sharp and make the stock feel cheap.

Bought $12.00 of Lepage Regular Epoxy and filled the entire forestock from recoil lug to end under the barrel to stop any flex. Took Dremel and cut out the plastic reinforcment skeleton before pouring in epoxy.

Took out the plastic that curves inward at the end of the forestock to clear the barrel better.


Filled the buttstock with 2" layer of sand in the pistol grip, then 1/2" layer of epoxy over sand, then filled up space from grip to near recoil pad with Great Stuff foam, then a 1" layer of sand near recoil pad, then epoxy to seal everything flush with recoil pad screw holes.

This added miniscule weight and silenced the hollow acoustics and resonance of the stock.

Was going to glass the action but this rifle should shoot 1/2" with custom loads. If not, a $10.00 tube of JB Weld.

If you want to spend $100 you can buy a Timney trigger for the rifle. My shooting style is squeeze with a complete surprise. Adjusting factory trigger to minimum is good for me. It is slightly heavy but has no creep and that is what is most important.

The Stevens 200 is exactly the same rifle as the $450-$600 Savage rifles except the stock is grey and it doesn't have the Accutrigger or detachable magazine. It is an exceptional shooting rifle and with fill the freezer year in, year out.

This is a good scope for the rifle:

Bushnell Trophy 3-9 X 40 Mil-Dot:

http://www.bushnell.com/general/riflescopes_trophy_73-3946.cfm

42 feet field of view @ 100 yards. Exceptional for close quarter bush on elk or moose.

Mil-Dots can take you out to 500 yards with a 7mm magnum or 300 magnum once you know which dots to choose. Minimal practice for elevation. Wind is a different matter.

Total cost of rifle with scope and rings is approx. $440.00


Cor

The .300 Winchester if one rifle. The 7mm Magnum (7STW) if a battery.

I think the original Winchester battery of a .264 WM, .338 WM, and .458WM is the hand to draw to.

If you shoot lots for recreation at a bench or field practice then buy a 7mm. If you sight in your rifle before hunting season and fill your freezer for the year like many do than a 300 is not a problem. Can always use a pillow at the bench if wanted.

I have a 300 WM, but have shot it very little. Mostly I use it as a loaner. I just have never cared much for the cartridge. Recently I shot a 7mm Mag at the range and was surprised at how easy it was on my shoulder. I always figured that if I needed more than the 06 provided, then going up to the 338 made more sense than messing with the 300 mag. The 210 gr or 225 gr 338 really is a good step up compared to the 06, and provides all the long range performance the 300 mag can do. I like the idea of owning a 7mm mag. Seems practical to me.

KB

My hunting buds shoot 7MM Rem mags over the 300 Win for mulies and elk. They don't like the recoil of the 300 Win and for them the 7mm is the ticket...and they get their game. One of them is a very experienced shooter, hunter and a great shot on game. He just doesn't like the extra recoil of a bigger rifle and doesn't see the need for anything "bigger". Shows that shot placement on game trumps all.

Myself, I like bigger stuff and use a .338 Lapua for mulies and elk and like shooting something different from the norm. I also like 375s, 416s and my pet 458 Lott! I am comfortable with my choice of rifles/calibers just as he is with his 7mm. And I humbly know he is the better game shot. All is good and we have a great time during and after the hunt.

As I always say, choose what rifle/caliber you are comfortable shooting and that you shoot well.

John

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
Bear in mind as a hunter and rifleman, I'm a duffer.

quote:

For antelope & deer, either is more gun than needed but the 7rm makes more sense. If it's for elk, then I would opt for a 30mag over the 7rm if you are upto it.

Those are the animals I hunt. My scores under 300 yards are 100%, beyond that quite poor- the mags were suggested to replace the "standard" cartridges I've been using.

I think it's a good idea, due to my NOT being able to do serious range time, handload, etc- basically not being able to really wring out any particular rifle. The recoil isn't an issue.

Thank you all for these great responses- they will really help me.

You don't need a diff. rifle, you need more range time. SHooting past 300yds requires practice. There is NO rifle/cartridge combo that will make you a 400yd shooter w/o trigger time. The diff. between a 300wm & a 30-06 at 400yds is 4". That is hardly a laser beam. The magnum will just carry more energy, not make you a better long range shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
The magnum will just carry more energy, not make you a better long range shooter.

That is huge. Excellent point..

tin can,

The late Les Bowman was a guide and later a gun writer both. He noticed that those who shot 300 magnums and larger rounds flinched more than those who did not. This was before the 7mm RM was introduced.

At that time some great gun writers such as Bob Hagel and Warren Page were shooting 7mm magnum wildcats and giving them a lot of press.

Bowman went to Remington with his design and the rest is history.

7mm Remington Magnum

quote:

Bear in mind as a hunter and rifleman, I'm a duffer.

With that as a consideration, get the 7 mag. The .300 Mag is a handful for a newbie. If you develop a flinch, it won't matter how accurate or flat shooting the rifles is, you can't take what you can't hit. The 7 is almost as flat shooting as a 300 but the recoil is the same as for an -06. Meaning, not bad.

What would you wish to change about the Vanguard stock? I love mine, as is.

quote:

With that as a consideration, get the 7 mag. The .300 Mag is a handful for a newbie. If you develop a flinch, it won't matter how accurate or flat shooting the rifles is, you can't take what you can't hit. The 7 is almost as flat shooting as a 300 but the recoil is the same as for an -06. Meaning, not bad.

What would you wish to change about the Vanguard stock? I love mine, as is.

Thanks, Jim.

not a newbie, in that sense- been shooting forever, not western hunting, though.

recoil, as stated, not a problem, really.

any factory stock is far too short for me. I add a lot to the butt, a thick pad and a couple spacers. High combs just get in the way, cheek pieces are nowhere near my face, and the vanguard stock design doesn't lend itself to lengthening. I'm huge, and the world and it's products stopped considering me about three sizes smaller than I need.

I don't have the time to have a new stock fit, etc.

Also, as stated, there ain't no real range time.

It looks like a 7mm for me, in whatever decent rifle I find it in first. That ain't easy either, look where I live.

And thanks to all.

Based on my own experiences 7mm Mag is enough gun for all but the most dangerous critters in NA any way .

I use a Rem Mag and have never had to shoot twice in 40+ years of hunting .

No I'm no super marksman !. I simply practice practice and practice some more . I figure I shoot nearly 4K

Rifle bullets a year, averages out about 325 a month . Inexpensive comparatively speaking paper punchers

as opposed to hunting rounds . I limit my number of Hunting bullets to maybe 100 per year .

I'm not as concerned with accuracy as I once was . Meaning after hand loading and bench testing the Rifle is

normally good to go . I practice 100-600 yd. with hanging paper plates off bushes or branches ,

free floating in the breeze . Off hand , setting kneeling prone sticks steady rest what ever is available .

I believe this makes for a better prepared hunter an all around marksman . As I have never personally found

a bench while hunting .

Never have counted my pistol rounds . I simply judge by # of canisters of powder I consume .

I have shot my 7mm Mag to 600yds and it shot accuraterly.With the 130gr bullet.

A friend of mine Jeff Neal ( Booking Agent ) has taken more game with a 300 Weatherby Mag than any one I know of, he hunts all over the world
All the time and has the “ability “ i.e. money , friends. Etc to use any gun there is and that is the gun he uses on most hunts, he told me the thing about a 300 WM
Is you put the cross hairs on it make a good shot and its dead, from 0-500 yards its flat shooting and has the knock down it takes at these ranges.

Before I start to get flamed on my wording, ( you put the cross hairs on it make a good shot and its dead, from 0-500 yards )
Let me explain, yes you will still need to allow for drop, just not a much as a 30.06 , the thing im saying is its flat shooting and hard hitting.

The thing im learning about long range shooting is not only the caliber but the optics, you cant hit what you cant see.

My plans for this next year are to build a good 300 WM , as far a recoil , I weigh 170lbs. I shoot a 375 AI. And no it doesn’t hurt
For the most part recoil is in your head

quote:

For the most part recoil is in your head

I'll bet you look very funny shooting from a bench sighting it in then!!

I usually hold the gun to my shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
Bear in mind as a hunter and rifleman, I'm a duffer.

My scores under 300 yards are 100%, beyond that quite poor- the mags were suggested to replace the "standard" cartridges I've been using.

I think it's a good idea, due to my NOT being able to do serious range time, handload, etc- basically not being able to really wring out any particular rifle. ...

Hey Tin Can, If you can not put in the Trigger Time at long distance, then it is best to forget the idea all together. There is a whole lot more to shooting "accurately" at distance than people realize - until they do the Practicing.

As a general Rule of Thumb, a person should never attempt shots at distances longer than what they have Practiced. And if they Practice at long distance, they will learn that the only way to get the groups down to an acceptable size is with lots of Practice and with good, well tuned Loads for the rifle.

There are no short-cuts to attaining long distance accuracy that end with good results. That is just the way it works.

quote:

For the most part recoil is in your head

OK, granted, the FEAR of recoil is certainly in the head. But the black and blue is on the shoulder and it hurts. That's why people develop a fear of it.

Anyone can LEARN to handle recoil, and good fitting stocks and recoil pads help, but shooting a big gun doesn't come easy. Perhaps some of us have forgotten what it's like to be a beginner?

Nice one Vapodog ! LOL THATS WHAT I BEEN DOING WRONG !

I was sighting this gun in africa one time , the whole world watching ,trackers ,PH, etc. ,,im on the bench and a sand bag ,,boom the scope cuts me above the eye, first shot, so i put a sand bag ontop the scope and shoot, boom, the sand bag lands on top my head, i stand up with it still on top of me, well everyone got a good laugh on me.

yes recoil is their, but i think a lot of folks make more of it than it needs to be, kinda like life, just roll with the punches and you will be fine.

quote:

Is you put the cross hairs on it make a good shot and its dead, from 0-500 yards its flat shooting and has the knock down it takes at these ranges.

The diff. in drop between the vaunted 300wby & the 300winmag is less than 3" @ 500yds w/ 180gr bullets & a 200yd zero. The 06 would only drop 10" more than a 300wby. It's not a laser beam. Long range game shooting is not as much about drop as wind & the bullets time of flight. You need to practice to be good, no rifle will do it for you.

One more issue for me anyway with the heavier recoiling rifles is what Savage 99 mentioned, and that is I can shoot the 7mm Mag accurately with no fear of flinching. With chamberings like the 300WM and the 338WM, there is always that fear in the back of my mind. My fear of recoil is born from having torn a retina in my eye from shooting big boomers.

Don

Since Tin Can has stated that recoil is not an issue, I would get he 300 wm. That extra knock down power may help if you are not dead on. I have a 338 wm and have no issues with its recoil.

In general, I have a problem believing there is a difference between a 7Mag with a 175 at 2900 fps and a .300 with a 180 at 3000 fps. The only advantage is being able to use 200's. The 7Mag does have noticeably less recoil. My other side is that if I were going to shoot a bullet heavier than a 175, I'd move right past the .300's and pick up a .338 WM. My safe has several various .338 caliber rifles, and several 7MM rifles, as opposed to .30's. As someone said, if you are only going to have one, the .300 is a pretty safe choice.

If you ever want to sell the rifle I would go with a 300.
7mm mags seem to be about the most difficult non wildcat caliber to resell.

Make mine the 7 Rem. Mag. please...

DM