Been a long winter and I was calculating recoil from several loads I use in my M700 Whelan. I was shocked to realize that a 225gr load in my 7.8# whelen was equivalent in recoil to a hypothetical 180gr load from the nosler manual for a 9lb 300 win mag or 9.5 lb 300 weatherby mark V. THe recoil in the Whelen is pretty stout, and got me thinking whether it might make sense to get one of the 300's and use it instead of the whelen for my western elk hunts and eastern moose. Anyone ever give this comparison any thought?
The Whelen is used on moose hunts, and was used on an elk hunt last year but the average shot distances were too far in my opinion. The 300's might be more versitile.

Honestly I've never taken the time to go thru charts/theory's etc on recoil. What I have done and what I do do is shoot the darn things and see for myself.

IME the recoil of the35 Whelan is not stout, it has a good bump but that is about it.

IME you will find that there is a difference in recoil quickness (techy term). They may have the same ft pound recoil or whatever but the 300 Wby is gonna be a much faster recoil.

Just my 2 cents

Oops sorry forgot to answer the other part of your post. Which rifle I would personnally take for an elk hunt would depend on where I hunted. Specifically what type of terrain. There is a fair bit of elk country that the Whelan will do just fine. And, there is also a lot of terrain out there where it is just not flat enough shooting.

IMO the 300's can be made to work in any terrain and under any situation. The 35 Whelan is just not that versatile albeit it is a very good round for elk in its element.

Mark D

I've got to agree with Mark there... the Whelen is a neat round but the 300 WSM/WM/WBY are just more versatile as a western elk rifle. I like the 300 WSM the best of the bunch.

While I agree with you guys, and I am a Whelen fan, I have never shot an elk over 225 yards. For all of the elk hunting I have done (10 elk), the Whelen was all I ever thought I would need. Of course I limit myself to 300 yards, all things being said. But if a guy is good enough, and the conditions are right for one of those LONG shots, I think a 300 Mag is the way to go. Not for me though!

Jerry

IMO out to 300 yards the whelen is better for elk. But if your going to stretch the range I think a flatter shooting cartridge will work better.

I'm w/ SD on this. I hunt w/ the WHelen's better looking cousin, the .338-06. The .30mags offer little over it out to 300yds. Past that the .30mags come into their own. Plus you don't have to lug around a 9.5# rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
IMO out to 300 yards the whelen is better for elk. But if your going to stretch the range I think a flatter shooting cartridge will work better.

I agree but I wouldn't go the way of the 300. Based on my time living out there, if I was going to move up from the 35 Whelen, I would go straight to the 338 WM. I have both and I've never regretted going up to the 338.

In recoil, there ar to many variables.
In my opinion the recoil calculations really can't take into acount all the factors.
I think my whelen is quite comfortable. my .338 aint bad either, but clearly you need a rifle that fits you well and has a good recoil pad.
The 300 win will add 100 yards or so to your ramge on an elk hunt over the Whelen but
You better be goo with your load before you shoot that far,and while the Weatherby is a little better than the Win I would go with the win anyway, The power gain in the weatherby is not enough to warrent the added expence. Also don't rule out a hot 7 mag or STW. Plenty flat and still lots of power..tj3006

IMO, the 35 Whelen is a good critter thumper. I don't think a 300 mag has any advantage over the whelen under 250 yards. Most folks go from a 300 to a 35 whelen as the grow a bit wiser. A 338 win mag would be a better choice if'n you wanted more oomph than a 35 whelen, otherwise, why put up with more recoil and noise of a 300 mag.

John

Concerning the 300 mag vs 35 Whelen. I beleive if you are looking for an all around rifle, for most african plains game or game here in NA, there are few better choices then the 300 magnums, especially if you plan on shooting at over 300 yards on a frquent basis. Now, if I was going to get an elk rifle or other larger critter (bigger then whitetail)caliber there is would choose the 35 Whelen. The pictures below show why. Would a 300 mag with a 180 grain bullet at 3000 fps do this.

Shot was taken at about 50 yards and quick. This picture show the tree I hit before it hit the eland.


This picture shows the tree after it exited the the eland.


Dead eland about 1000lbs.(660lbs carcass weight)


If you are hunting elk in both open country and dark timber I would go with the 35 Whelen.

My hunting Bud shoots a 35 Whelen. 9 Elk hunts together, 9 Elk, up to 380 ( rangefinder yards ) yards, all 1 shot kills, Whelen has impressed me many times.
Maddog
PS 7 elk were cows.

In reply to "recoil quickness", there is a very good way to quantify this. Take for instance, three different rounds all being fired from 7 pound rifles; 300WM, 35 Whelen, and 45-70. The 300WM shoots a 180gr @ 3050fps using 80gr of powder. The 35 Whelen shoots a 250gr @ 2558 using 60gr of powder. The 45-70 shoots a 400gr @ 1758 using 51gr of powder. All three loads in a 7 pound rifle generate exactly 28.5 ft-lbs of recoil. Would they all feel the same? NO WAY!! And here's why... The "ft-lbs" of recoil is being applied for different time durations. The 300WM bullet only spends 0.001416 seconds in a 26" barrel, the 35 Whelen bullet spends 0.001689 seconds in the barrel, and the 45-70 bullets spends 0.002457 seconds in the barrel. This means that the ft-lbs are now applied to your body for differnt time durations, i.e. when the bullet is in the barrel. Now, when you take ft-lbs and divide by time, you get power. Calculate out to something we're all familiar with, Horsepower, and you see the results. The 300WM generates 36.5 HP, the 35 Whelen generates 30.7 HP, and the 45-70 generates 21 HP.

Split the difference. Get a nice 338-06 and load up the Barnes 210 XBT to about 2700 fps, and you've got a fine tool for processing elk out to 400 yds.

Personally, the largest part of a hunt for me is the thrill of the stalk. If I can't get within 300-400 yds, I don't feel I've "earned" a shot anyway... JMO...

I really don't consider the recoil of my 35 Whelen to be excessive. Saying that - the rifle is fairly heavy. I have shot other light rifles and did not not the recoild as being any different than a 30/06. the Whelen will take anything you are likely to run into on this continent expect perhaps the big bears.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
IMO, the 35 Whelen is a good critter thumper. I don't think a 300 mag has any advantage over the whelen under 250 yards. Most folks go from a 300 to a 35 whelen as the grow a bit wiser. A 338 win mag would be a better choice if'n you wanted more oomph than a 35 whelen, otherwise, why put up with more recoil and noise of a 300 mag.

John

My thoughts EXACTLY!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
Split the difference. Get a nice 338-06 and load up the Barnes 210 XBT to about 2700 fps, and you've got a fine tool for processing elk out to 400 yds.

By looking at the Barnes manual # 3, the difference in shooting a .338-06 with a 210 gr. Barnes XBT and a .35 Whelen shooting a 225 gr. XFB BOTH at 2700fps, is ONLY two inches drop at 400 yards. I betcha if the .35 cal X was a BT, they would be almost equal. BTW, the ENERGY at 400 yards for a .338-06 is 1827, while the energy for the .35 Whelen is 1756 ft-lbs. A difference of 71 ft-lbs---not that any game animal will feel that small amount.

No offense intended 'cause we all have OPINIONS and our own favorite calibers (yours is obviously the 9.3x62 ) , but for me with that small of a difference, I'd choose a bigger diameter "hammer."

Ok, I wasn't going to bring up the 338-06. I was just replying to the original question.

The 338-06 has been my go to elk gun the last three years. I started using a 210 NP @ 2730fps for the first two and then went on to the 210 TSX @ 2850fps for last one. Both loads did the job.

I own two and am currently having another built on an 03A3 action. Brass is super easy to form. 338-06 headstamped brass can be bought but it is a expensive.

I personally think that the 338-06 is the way to go. IMO it carries a slight ballistic advantage over the Whelen and a diameter advantage over the 30's.

Nosler makes the 180AB @approx 3000fps that will work great for deer size game, the 210 premiums or 225's for elk and the 250's or the 275 A frames for anything that walks.

I have shot one deer with the 210 NP and I felt it was too much bullet, and another couple with the 200gr Horn SP, much better IMO. When you shoot them, they are hurting and there is no doubt. Same happened with the elk.

But with that being said, shoot a critter with any of the above in the right place and they will die. 338-06 vs Whelen is purely personal preference.

quote:

I betcha if the .35 cal X was a BT, they would be almost equal.

Yeah, IF...

quote:

By looking at the Barnes manual # 3, the difference in shooting a .338-06 with a 210 gr. Barnes XBT and a .35 Whelen shooting a 225 gr. XFB BOTH at 2700fps, is ONLY two inches drop at 400 yards.
BTW, the ENERGY at 400 yards for a .338-06 is 1827, while the energy for the .35 Whelen is 1756 ft-lbs. A difference of 71 ft-lbs---not that any game animal will feel that small amount.

Ok, we'll play the max-load, book quoting game if you want. Barnes manual #3 pp. 485 lists 2805 as the max load for 210 XLC BT for the 338-06. 2062 fps and 1982 ft/lb remain at 400 yds.

Page 569 lists 2713 as the max load for e 225 XFB for the Whelen. 400 yd velocity: 1875 fps and 1756 ft/lbs left at 400 yds. Velocity is getting mighty low for reliable expansion...

All adds up to about 3.5" more drop at 400 yds...

quote:

...not that any game animal will feel that small amount... I'd choose a bigger diameter "hammer."

So there is no difference, and yet you would choose the "bigger" one, even though it's expanded diameters would likely be similar given the higher 338-06 remain velocity? Moreover, it appears that you're comfortable with bigger hammer meaning less powerful hammer (at extended ranges)... interesting semantics...

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
So there is no difference, and yet you would choose the "bigger" one, even though it's expanded diameters would likely be similar given the higher 338-06 remain velocity? Moreover, it appears that you're comfortable with bigger hammer meaning less powerful hammer (at extended ranges)... interesting semantics...

Sorry to make you so defensive. First off in my statement, I did note "BOTH at 2700 fps." I was using this velocity number from YOUR post.

BTW, I elk hunt with my .416 Rigby CZ with a McMillian stock and a Leupold Vari-X 4.5x14-50. Yes sir, I know OVERKILL and a so called Elephant rifle with a rainbow trajectory, BUT it still shoots as flat as a .300 Win. with a 200 grain bullet, when I shoot my supply of 325 grain X bullets.

So YES, I'd rather have a bigger hammer even at extended ranges. BTW, that doesn't neccessarily mean that it is less powerful when it comes to game getting performance. Even the LOW numbers in the manual referring to the venerable .45-70, do not account for it's consistant performance on game, even at extended range.

That's my last comment. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest.

Regards.

BTW, I ALWAYS prefer using the Taylor KO Two Caliber Comparison Calculator. I personally believe it more correctly shows performance on game animals. Just my $0.02.

338-06 Guys are very sensitive, aren't they?

I have never been able to get the velocities out of my 338-06, as are listed here, or in the loading manuals. That is unless I want to opt for a 28" barrel! IMO in equal barrel lenghts with similar bullet weights, the Whelen will shoot the same bullet at a higher velocity, that will negate any BC advantage, and the Whelen will be the better thumper!

Jerry

I've been around a Whelen or two but have never worked with them though.

The 338/06 (or as I like to call it the OKH) I have spent a fair time with.

I have a lil G33/40 mtn rifle with a 23" Chanlin tube on it.

Here is the speeds it runs, I am not running to the garage to get the load book but these will be very close.

180=2900 to 3000

200 and 210= 2800

250 = 2590

I personally do not see or fell there is a hill of beans difference between the OKH the Whelan and the 9.3x62.

Mark D

quote:

I have never been able to get the velocities out of my 338-06, as are listed here, or in the loading manuals. That is unless I want to opt for a 28" barrel!

Same here, except for the Whelen.

quote:

IMO in equal barrel lenghts with similar bullet weights, the Whelen will shoot the same bullet at a higher velocity, that will negate any BC advantage, and the Whelen will be the better thumper!

Well, since we're voicing ballistic "opinions":

IMO in equal barrel lenghts with similar bullet weights, the 338-06 will shoot the same bullet at the same velocity (due to its higher operating pressure), that will capitalize on the BC advantage, and the 338-06 will be the better thumper!

I find my 35 Whelen more pleasant to shoot than my 7mag (similar weight rifles). That's not what the "book" recoil predicts, but thats what my shoulder submits as a field report.

Plus, my ears don't ring after firing the Whelen. FWIW, Dutch.

9.3X62

Between the two rifles I have, there is no way I can get the 338-06, to shoot as fast as my Whelen. That is if I want to get the bolt open on the 338-06! Your two rifles may be different, but in my experience, it just ain't SO!

Jerry

I do not have experience with the 35 Whelen ... but I expect the 9,3x62 is very similar.

Its recoil is moderate and less severe than the .300 mags because it is less sudden (violent).

I personally think the .300s are some of the most uncomfortable rifles to shoot. The .338 Win Mag and the .375 H&Hs I have are more comfortable to shoot than the .300s. My .338 weights 8.5 pounds ready to go up the hill and the .375s weigh 9.5-10 pounds.

If I want more range than the 35 Whelen (or 9,3x62) I will tend to carry the .338 unless the target is very large then I use a 350 grain Barnes X in a .416 Rigby.

I took my biggest black bear with a 35 WhElen and 225Swift A Frames. In my view, it is an excellent mid-range cartridge with superb killing power.

My favorite all around cartridge is the 300 Weatherby. In my limited experience here in the states and two safaris to Africa, it is arguably the best all around cartridge extant. Hell, Elgin Gates used it to take virtually ALL of the world's big game with it, including the Big Five albeit it is VRy marginal in that regard.

Having said all of that, for practicality, the 300 Winchester is the way to go if you are just limited to one cartridge. No way I'd consider taking a WhElen out of the US. If you arrive w/o your ammo, you're screwed. jorge

The whelen is a better thumper because of bullet diameter.

The difference between the 338-06 and Whelen is purely on paper. It basically comes down to personal choice. In the field I don't think anyone can tell the difference.

I opted for the 338-06 because I had a whelen once and it was brutal to shoot. Probably more mental than anything. Besides, I already had a 375 H&H.

I can tell from my experience in the field, the 388-06 works. After shooting some elk with a 270 Win, 338-06 and 338WM. It is no competition. I am pretty sure the same can be said of the Whelen.

After shooting a few deer with medium bores, I couldn't tell the difference between the 338's and 358's. Now the 375 is annother story.

Back to the original question. Out to 300 yards I think the Whelen is better than the 30's. Simply because of bullet diameter.

Speer states that their tests show that the 338-06 is "ballistically superior" to the Whelen. However I must add that my Whelen is ballistically superior to theirs! Which one is actually better simply depends on which specific rifle is being used. My Whelen is my favorite Elk popper, but somehow I still would like to have the 338 variation. I think the biggest difference in the 2 is bullet construction. Many 35 cal bullets made today are made for the Whelen or lesser rifles wheras a lot of 338 slugs tend to be designed with the 338 WM in mind. That can be a pro or con either way depending on what you intend to use them for.

I think that Elk class game is where the Magnums begin to actually gain some practical usefulness. Its easy to get 3000+ fs from a deer classed rifle, and it doesnt have to have a belt or be short and fat.

As for recoil, forget the #'s, get out and shoot and compare that way. No way it is the same like the figures suggest. And even if it were, Ill take the 225 gn 35 cal slug over the 180 gn 30 for some real punch. Yardage hasnt been an issue for me yet.

quote:

the Whelen will take anything you are likely to run into on this continent expect perhaps the big bears.

Big bears are exactly what it was originally intended for and are where the 250 gn slugs really come into their own. Of corse that was back when men were men and 375 H&H'es were rare. But the good Colonel and his pals reported it to be a shining success for said purpose. Wether or not bears armor has improved since then I personally cant say.


Nice Eland pics Big Bullet!

The paperwork says that spring is here but not in reality as its 33F in CT at 3:05 PM.

Having shot the cartridges that your talking about both the paperwork and reality can mesh. It's not easy however to believe that at times since the specific recoil pad or stock geometry matter so much. So does each persons reaction to recoil energy, velocity and even the report.

To me the recoil velocity of the 300 magnums make them no fun and in particular in the lighter guns. But some love the 300 mags and do very well with them. To each his own.

I note that your looking at much heavier rifle in 300 mag than your Whelan and weight will really soak up recoil but we carry the rifle way more than we shoot it. As long as your ok with a nine pound rifle then thats ok with me as I can't see it from my house but I would leave a heavyweight in the vehicle after looking at some of those "hills" out West.

I think that you already have a 7mm RM. Get a good new soft Decelerator on that rig and work up a 160 gr load with Accubonds and read some of what Les Bowman wrote. I think that you and I would shoot that rifle better.

To continue with what I would carry out West in the "hills" for that game is this 7mm WSM fitted with a Bansner UL stock, Decelerator pad, and Weaver lightweight mounts. I have shot 7mm mags for a long time and are my personal preferance for a long range magnum bore diameter but thats my take on kick.

This rifle goes just 7.6 # as it is. Thats more to my liking.

99: You are correct I do have a 7mmag. I used it on Elk last year, after putting away the 35 on the second day, because my guide suggested I would have more opportunies to use it vs the 35 Whelen with Federal 225's.I was hunting in Wyoming, and took my Elk at 280 yds, well within my practice range for the Whelen. Interestingly, my 7mmag is 8.0 lbs and my 35 is 7.8 lbs. Using 160 gr remington loaded ultrabonded bullets, the 7mmag is pretty comfortable to shoot. The Whelen really jumps. I'll probably try to develope a good deer load for the 7mag, and work on the Whelen with 250's.
Probably won't hunt Elk again for many moons due to big $$!
Turned down a 300 Weatherby MkV this past weekend in Maine.