I'm wondering what options are available for upgrading the capacity of a 338 WinMag?
A seconadary question relates to doing this on a Tikka T3 action.

Assumptions: standard length magazine, 3.4", so no RUM option.

The two cartridges that come to mind are the 338 Norma Magnum and a 338 Ruger (non-Compact) case.

The Norma has expensive brass but is "available", assuming a smithy could find a reamer. The rails and bolt head/extractor would need altering to the Rigby size.

The "Ruger" would have inexpensive brass if 375Ruger brass were neck-sized down to 338.

Are reamers already available somewhere?

Capacity-wise a full-Ruger-based case might have an 11 grain advantage over the WinMag and the Norma would have another 10 grain advantage over the "Ruger".

Costs and simplicity would go into the overall calculation. One reason for considering the upgrade is that the current Tikka rifle in 338WM has a slighty oversize chamber producing fired brass with .316" base diameter. That means that different loads need to be calculated for newbrass vs fired brass, neck-size vs. full-length sized. The "easy" standardization might be to rechamber the rifle in a larger calibre.

Actually, I just checked and Midway offers 338Norma brass at $43 for 20. That isn't so bad for good brass. My 416 brass is a bit under this in Hornady.

So, a specific question becomes, can a Tikka t3 be altered to safely handle a Norma magnum case?

Grafs & Sons has Jamison brass in 338 Norma Magnum for $32.99 for a box of 20 cases. It's a special price, only 5 boxes in stock.

I just remembered that the Tikka is a push-feed.
So can the bolthead be drilled and opened enough for a Rigby casehead?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I just remembered that the Tikka is a push-feed.
So can the bolthead be drilled and opened enough for a Rigby casehead?

Push-feed and likely a 0.700" max bolt diameter... I recommend you leave it as is...

I've been following up suggestions on the 338 Campfire (i.s. 338/375Ruger).

It turns out the the developer and gunsmith over at 24Hour Campfire who developed one version of the cartridge don't know where the reamer is today!

If anyone knows where a reamer for a 338/375Ruger is and can be rented, please come forward.

Make your rifle into a 330 Dakota. Your bolt head can handle that.

The 330 Dakota is one of those perfectly balance cartridges. It is the 30-06 of .338 diameter, just as the 375 Weatherby is the 30-06 of the .375 diameter cartridges.

All have the same trajectories; that is kind of handy.

I hear you, Lawndart.
Trajectories are no problem for either the 338 Campfire or 338 Dakota, both about equal to the 340Weatherby. Very balanced for the 338 bore. Agreed.
The Campfire will probably give up 2-3 grains capacity to the Dakota, but that should not make a practical difference.

However, the Dakota has a +.013 casehead spec that should probably be cut into the boltface of a Tikka. I don't know how difficult that is for a smith, but it is an extra cost.

Brass is something of a tossup. Dakota has brass available for now at $2.25/case. Ruger 375 brass is under a dollar but requires extra shaping. In the long run the Ruger basic or Ruger375 should work well. In fact, the availability of Ruger Basic leads me to think of doing a 'long Campfire', say keeping the 375 shoulder at the same place but leangthening the neck 0.04" to .33" inch, resulting in a case length of 2.62".
I will need to find out how long the Ruger basic brass is. Hopefully longer that the 2.58" finished 375Rug.

Reloading dies are also suprisingly close. The Campfire would require a set of custom dies, but the available dies at Midway for Dakota are already $145! Ouch. And the first 100 units of brass in Dakota are going to cost an extra $125, so it looks like a custom Campfire will be less expensive in the long run.

And if we let it run a little long in the brass it should be a pretty nice cartridge. Hmm. Sounding better and better.
But squeezing the brass down to .338 will probably require a special hydraulic sizer.

Any suggestions on this last item?

Just found this on Midway reviews:

"Smooth surface; annealed about 2/3 of the way down from mouth; small flash hole, probably so you can uniform it to a larger size; wall thickness is .014" at mouth; 2.657" long; .529" rim diameter; .530 base datum diameter; .463" groove diameter; no headstamp. Very attractive brass. Wildcatters will love this brass. Buy it!"

Sounds great.
So how difficult would it be to put a shoulder in the brass and a .33" neck, trimming to 2.62"
I've not gone this route before.

From my research there is no gain in performance between the 338win and the 330 Dakota according to my findings. They will both push a 250 grain bullet at around 2700 ft/sec. which is only 200 ft/sec slower than the 338RUM. I have loaded for and shot the 338win and used to own the 338RUM and I will assert there is a lot more powder and recoil with the RUM for a very modest gain in velocity

I've owned about a half-dozen .338's and still own two of them, one of which has hunted Africa. Loaded judiciously with a properly slow powder the .338 gives me all of the velocity I want in this caliber. But I never question the desire of a man for something more, so . . .

The .375 Ruger case should adapt easily to your Tikka. It will require no bolt face or other alteration for its .532 case head -- just ream and shoot. However, the Tikka's short magazine won't allow you the optimum performance from a .338 to begin with, so the almost 1/10th inch longer Ruger case will be even more crowded. If you want more performance in a .338 bore you're going to need to use an action with a magazine of 3.6+".

The Tikka is the standard length, already a 338WM, so it should do 3.35"+. I'll have to measure it before making a commitment. Hopefully, it will hold 3.4"

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I hear you, Lawndart.
Trajectories are no problem for either the 338 Campfire or 338 Dakota, both about equal to the 340Weatherby. Very balanced for the 338 bore. Agreed.
The Campfire will probably give up 2-3 grains capacity to the Dakota, but that should not make a practical difference.

There is no practical difference between a 330 Dakota nd 338 WM. Just leave it as is.

Practical,

Dr. Lou, you are talking to someone who owns a lovely 9,3x64, but is ordering parts an extra barrel for his 404 Jeffery so he can have a switch barrel in 9,3x70 Expert Magnum, just because Uncle Herman had one back in the day.

I love the 330 Dakota. It looks good, and I feel good shooting one. Good quality brass, and the reamer nicely cleaned up an off center and slightly oblong 338 Win Mag chamber. That rifle belongs to an acquaintance. I have an action that was once part of a 338 Winchester Magnum. It had to be blue-printed (No, it is not a Remington), so the world is my oyster regarding where I go with it from here.

Hmm, I wonder how much powder a 338 Newton would hold...

Adding on to Lawndart

The 330 Dakota, the 340 Weatherby, and a 338/375 Ruger are all approximately the same level of capacity and can be loaded to equivalent velocities (+/- 20-30 fps, theoretically) at equivalent pressures.

All three are good for 100-150 fps advantange over the 338 Win Mag.
However, all FOUR (the Weatherby, Dakota, Ruger, and Winnie chambers) will HUNT virtually the same. It is only at 300-400 yards that the higher group picks up an two-three inch trajectory over the WinMag. So for only 2% of my hunting I would give up a couple of inches, the other 98% would be identical.

And as mentioned, I, too, am considering the rechambering in order to clean up a sloppy chamber in a 338WM.

so that

338Win Mag load at 2800 fps, 225 TTSX, 514 BC:, 2.1" higharc:
400 yards -- drop -20.6" -- 10mph drift 11.7"

338 Campfire/Dakota/Weatherby load at 2950 fps, 225 TTSX, 514 BC:, 2.1" higharc:
400 yards -- drop -17.6" -- 10mph drift 10.8"

That's it in a nutshell. You pick up 3 inches at 400 yards, which is really very little. Sure the hot 338's have a little more Oompf, but in reality it doesn't make that much difference, and very few people have the ability to make consistent kills beyond 300 yards, (self included), so the 338 Win mag is still a great all round plains game calibre for the majority of people.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Practical,

Dr. Lou, you are talking to someone who owns a lovely 9,3x64, but is ordering parts an extra barrel for his 404 Jeffery so he can have a switch barrel in 9,3x70 Expert Magnum, just because Uncle Herman had one back in the day.

I love the 330 Dakota. It looks good, and I feel good shooting one. Good quality brass, and the reamer nicely cleaned up an off center and slightly oblong 338 Win Mag chamber. That rifle belongs to an acquaintance. I have an action that was once part of a 338 Winchester Magnum. It had to be blue-printed (No, it is not a Remington), so the world is my oyster regarding where I go with it from here.

Hmm, I wonder how much powder a 338 Newton would hold...

Lawndart, I fully agree with you. Not much of what I do regarding firearms is practical. Above, the OP mentioned the difference in powder capacity between two 338 cartridges not having much of a practical difference. I was just adding my opinion on that. I have owned many 338 WMs and a couple 340 Bees. Though I don't care much for Weatherby cartridges, I think the 340 is perfect for that bore size, though it doesn't offer enough over the 338 WM to justify the expense of brass and extra powder. To my mind the same goes for most of the larger magnums. Again, if we are being practical, we'd own a 30-06 or 270 Win and be content.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lawndart:
Practical,

Again, if we are being practical, we'd own a 30-06 or 270 Win and be content.

Probably correct. I hope I don't become too practical or I may only end up with a 223 Rem, a 30/06 and a 375 H&H.

Yeah,

How do women do that thing where you build them a nice 7mm-08 "starter" rifle; then they use that SAME gun for forty years, and kill everything with, like, one bullet. The Gods must be crazy.

Dr. Lou,
You are correct about the 340 Weatherby. With the new, shorter freebore (.337 IIRC). that is an awesome choice.

quote:

so the 338 Win mag is still a great all round plains game calibre for the majority of people.

I've always liked the 338 WinMag in Africa. 225 gr to 250 gr provide all-around coverage.

If I ream out the Tikka it will be for NorthAmerica.

Back to help of rechambering questions--

1. If someone designed the shoulder-neck of a 338/375Ruger to exactly mimic the shoulder-neck of the 338 Ruger Compact Magnum,
could 338 Ruger Compact Magnum reloading dies be used for resizing brass and necking down a 375 Ruger to a "338 Eland"?

The 338 RugCompactMag
uses a shoulder diameter of .5158" and a neck length of .3199". If 338RCM dies are used for resizing 375 Ruger brass, the bottom half of the case would not have the fullest support on the walls because the taper from the shoulder to base of the longer cartridge would be slower than the shorter "Compact".

2. I'm thinking that this would not be a problem since the critical area is the shoulder.
Will the 375 Ruger shoulder stand up to reforming a .338" neck?

The 375 Ruger only has a neck of .3050" so that its shoulder will be pushed back in the 338Compact Dies.

3. Will such resizing provide for the 0.0149" lengthening that would be desired? It would probably provide for some of that, and maybe the rest will eventually fill out from repeated firings, eventually needing its first trim.

4. A related question, will the resizing of 375Ruger cases in a 338RCM die produce 'donuts' (neck-shoulder buildup of excess material)? If so, does neck reaming fix this or is the whole endeavor problematic?

If you just want to be practical, cheapest and easiest fix for the problem:

1. Get a new barrel and have it properly chambered in .338 WinMag. Assuming the Tikka is capable of being rebarreled,
i.e., not one of those swaged-in barrels.
I do not know anything about them.

2. Dump the Tikka pushfeed with bad chamber and get something entirely different, any kind of .338 imaginable that way.

The .338/.375 Ruger sounds interesting, but only in a different make of rifle.

I hunted with 340 Wby Fibermark since 1985-1988, in Alaska.
Still love that rifle.
But, now I prefer .338 Lapua Magnum above all other .338s:
Both a light and handy 23"-barreled CZ 550 Magnum, "Hilltop Custom Rifle" and a Heavyweight Dakota Longbow are my picks.

Tanz,

I believe you've previously mentioned your Tikka is an accurate rifle but that you're concerned with the excessive working of the brass with your 'standard off the shelf' reloading dies and your slightly oversize chamber could lead to case separation at the belt/body junction.

If your Tikka is accurate then your safest and most cost effective solution is the send 3-pieces of fired brass to your reloading die manufacturer of choice and have a full set of custom reloading dies made to match your chamber. Once received then set the dies to onlyn work the neck shoulder area of the cases for reliable chambering and headspace the loaded cartridges off the shoulder and just ignore trying to headspace off the belt. Problem solved and your brass will live through many reloadings.

As an FYI... I have friends that used belted magnum brass for their 30 Newton and 35 Newton rifles when commercial brass for the Newtons dried up (this was before the release of 375 Ruger brass). They'd reload and fire 2-3 full pressure loadings which -depending upon the case wall thickness - would eliminate the belt/case body step down leaving a very thin line around the circumference of the new beltless case body. Again depending upon the quality of the brass, they'd get an additional average 10-20 full pressure reloadings before the brass was swapped out for new.

Could a winchester M70 extreme .338 win mag be changed re-chambered to .338 Norma Mag.....the .338 norma reamer would clean up the win mag chambering wouldn't it ?

No and yes.

The Win Mag has a faster shoulder angle coming off of the neck that would NOT be cleaned up by the Norma Mag. If you just rechambered to Norma Mag there would be some strange bulges formed at the top of the shoulder.

However, the above can be solved by setting back the barrel. One or two threads should be plenty. check with your gunsmith.

Also check whether you have a push feed or a control-feed. The push feed can be more problematic for opening up to the larger case head.

One option that hasn't been mentioned and would definitely bring " something more" to the table is the old .375/.338 wildcat, sometimes called the .375 Taylor. It is an easy change and will match the .375 H&H on performance.

Wesattul--
doesn't a 375/338 need an extra long magazine (H&H size)?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Wesattul--
doesn't a 375/338 need an extra long magazine (H&H size)?

No it is based upon the 338 WinMag case so takes the same magazine length as the 338 WinMag.