I have a friend that wants me to download a 270 Win for his mom. Does anyone have any experiance with the 110gr seirra spitzer on deer sized game?

Thanks

The bullet he wants you to load is a varmint bullet. It is in no way designed to use on deer sized game. The only light weight bullet suited for this experiment is the new 115gr. Barnes TSX in 270.
Your friend and yourself need to do a bit of reading on bullet construction.

have shot fallow deer with the 110gr hornady hollow points, quite effective, but would recommend you just use the factory loadings by winchester and the like. the 110gr are a bit light, and something in the 130gr mark would be a better starting point


cheers cc

southpaw, I am just beginning to gather data on this bullet. As you can see, I will be working on a reduced load for this lady. We all know that this bullet pushed at a higher velocity IS a varmint load. For example, if I would push a 150 rn intended for the 30/30 at 300 Weatherby velocities it would not be much better than a varmint bullet. At 30/30 velocities, it would be ideal for deer. As for the Barnes bullets, I have evperience with the 120gr 7mm X bullet and I did not like the performance on deer.

quote:

Originally posted by WVHILLBILLYJLM:
southpaw, I am just beginning to gather data on this bullet. As you can see, I will be working on a reduced load for this lady. We all know that this bullet pushed at a higher velocity IS a varmint load. For example, if I would push a 150 rn intended for the 30/30 at 300 Weatherby velocities it would not be much better than a varmint bullet. At 30/30 velocities, it would be ideal for deer. As for the Barnes bullets, I have evperience with the 120gr 7mm X bullet and I did not like the performance on deer.

I have never shot a deer with the Sierra 110 grain .277" bullet. But I have shot a lot of porcupines and jackrabbits with it using 58 grains of IMR 4350 for the powder charge. At that load level, it fairly well disintegrates small varmints. I'd consider it on the explosive side for anything you want to eat. But maybe if you slowed it down to 2400-2500 FPS, it might work OK on deer.

Hillbilly
Try the Hodgdons website. They have a whole section of their website for reduced youth loads. Their idea is what you are thinking a lighter bullet driven at slower velocities to get the desired effect. We've had this very discussion before on these forums and there are a bunch of these guys that can't seem to get the concept. Some of them believe "once a varmint bullet always a varmint bullet" no matter what speed you push it.
I started my son on reduced 130 and 120 grain loads in his .284 and he is doing well with it. As kids do he is growing like crazy so he is already about at the end of his reduced load days and stepping up.
Good luck with your venture.

Most "deer" bullets expand acceptably down to 1800 - 2000 fps, so there's not much reason to go to a light-jacketed bullet. The Hornady Interbond is known as one of the "softest" premium bonded bullets and it should serve your needs well.

FWIW, the Hornady manual lists mosts of their InterBonds down to 2200 fps, IIRC, while the .270 130g InterBond only goes down to 2700 fps. I called and asked them about that a couple of months ago to determine if the 130g were "harder" than their other IBs. They said it wasn't; that ws just as low as they'd listed a handload for it. They assumed it would perform as well at lower velocities as their other IB bullets.

Jaywalker

Rather than handload for someone else (let alone someone else's mother) I recommend you suggest Remington's Managed Recoil ammunition. Their 270 Winchester load uses a 115 gr CoreLokt @ 2710 fps. We used their 125 gr (2550 fps) 30'06 MR load on whitetails last year with no complaints. More details here http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-Recoil.asp

I loaded that bullet for deer one year on top of 42.0 grains of 3031 for around 2800 fps. I shot three Texas whitetails at ranges under 100 yards. Though the bullet killed quickly and was very accurate it never exited. Pretty destructive tpp.

RICKT300,

That is what I wanted to here. Thank you very much for the very useful info!

I loaded some TSX's for a friend and was surprised at the lessened recoil and some of it is due to the rings they cut around them which reduces pressure slightly.
Have Fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
I loaded some TSX's for a friend and was surprised at the lessened recoil and some of it is due to the rings they cut around them which reduces pressure slightly.

Dwight: I've got a really good deal on some over-the-counter securities that a man like you can make a killing on. Call me at 1-800-SUCKER.

Stonecreek,

Was that necessary? True, that's not what the rings are for, but there were less offensive ways to make the point. Simply saying the rings are there to reduce bearing surface and fouling would have been fine.

Jaywalker

WVHILLBILLJLM,
Sounds like a good question, but the best answer I can give you is to contact Sierra directly and see what their thoughts are. Doesn't seem like there's been much real world experince here w/ this bullet for deer hunting. Bullet performance is closely related to velocity. I hunt a great deal w/ handguns and find the Ballistic Tip bullets perform VERY well at the slightly reduced velocities I run my handguns at w/o all the horror stories we've all read about from folks using BT's in rifles. Consequently, although the idea of using the aforementioned a "varmint bullet" for deer hunting initially seems strange, it might work. And you're right to keep the bullet weight down. My son's deer hunting load is a light recoiling 308 Win (125 gr NBT at 2450 fps) he's used to kill 4/4 deer. When I tried a 150 gr NBT, the increased recoil was noticable. Gary T.

I killed about 6 PA whitetails with this bullet using a LOT more 3031 than was mentioned above. My rifle has has a 24" tube. Speed was just under 3400. Accuracy is absolutely outstanding. Kills like the wrath of god, but you had better stay away from the eating meat.

WVHB,
I'll give this one a shot!

I looked on the Hodgdon site and found the youth loads for the 270. They specifically show the SIE SPT 110 gr at 2594 fps using 36.2 gr H4895. That's about as good as it gets for handloads, which specifically answering your question. I'm sure that info qualifies as "experienced". Even though I looked it up, I think we can rely on Hogdgen.

But, I also have some personal opinions on this subject, based on personal experience.

It's a delicate balance, trying to find a load that a recoil sensitive person can shoot well, yet still adequate for deer. It would be more than dissappointing to have a new person, especially a woman, lose a deer or two, wounded with too little gun or inadequate loads. That's one of the best ways I know to discourage someone new at the blood sport.

To me the 270 is a pretty mild recoiling rifle, and I begin to question someone's ability to actually hunt deer if the 270 factory load is too much. But, again that's just one opinion.

A lot of people think of the 243 as a beginner's deer rifle because it kicks so mild, but I think of the 243 as an experienced person's rifle, because I think it is marginal for deer, and the shots need to be placed skillfully. An experienced hunter will wait for the right shot, and have better success with the marginal calibers.

If I was doing it. I would let the person practice a lot with the reduced loads, and hunt with the real thing.

If that's not the choice you shall make, then my next proposal would be to use the Remington factory stuff, which they call the managed recoil ammo. Certainly that ammo has been tested, and qualifies as adequate, and safe. Again I would use it for practice, and use the full 130gr for the hunt.

I looked on the Barnes site, and I don't see a 115gr .277 bullet. But I did see a 110gr for the 6.8 Rem. That's interesting because the design specs for the bullet to perform correctly would be about the speed you will be getting with the reduced loads. In other words, you will approximately duplicate the 6.8 mm Rem factory load. I am making an assumption here, thinking the Barnes is a much tougher bullet than the Sierra, even though the Sierra site lists the 110 gr as a hunting bullet.

If I were going to let a person use my handloads, I would want to go with something staying within the design specs of the bullet. The Barnes 110gr TSX is designed for the speed you will be shooting. No guess work. The Remington Managed Recoil ammo is desingned for the speed - again no guess work. Why experiment on a real live deer?

I am curious about your experience with the 120 gr Barnes 7mm. Exactly what performance aspect were you dissappointed with? I think the 120 gr 7mm is not to be compared with the 110 gr 6.8mm Barnes, again because of the design specs. I think the 120 gr 7mm is designed to be shot at a much higher velocity, and I'm pretty sure that Barnes designed the 110gr 6.8mm bullet to open up at the 2500-2600 fps level.

On the other hand, according to the other input, the Sierra bullet you are thinking of using is explosive even though it is listed by Sierra as a hunting bullet. Personally I could only guess what it will do at 2500 fps. Mayby it will work well, maybe not. I don't know if this bullet was designed for high velocity in the 270, or designed specificaly for the 6.8mm. So, for me it's clearly guess work at what it will do at the reduced speed. We know for sure it will act just like a varment bullet at normal speed, and blow up to smithereens.

Hope this helps. Just trying to save some embarrasment, and perhaps a lost deer, and trying to give advice that will give the best chance of success. It's what I would do, so why not advise you of the same.

Although it wouldn't be my first choice, I would have adequate confidence in taking a deer at reasonable range using a 6.8mm Remington, especially using the Barnes 110 gr TSX. That's esentially what your friend's mom will be doing with the 270 reduced loads

Best regards, Good Luck, Etc.

KB

I can assure you that a 110 TSX from a 270 and IMR4350 is a reduced load and will kill any deer/antelope within reasonable shooting range, say, 250 yards. I've loaded that for my brother since the 110 TSX came out and he's taken at least a dozen head of game (if not twice that many).

I've yet to film one animal that he's shot with this load that didn't buckle on impact and go stiff legged.

Doc,
After reading your posting, it seems to me that perhaps the various postings on this thread have been talking about two different definitions of "reduced Loads".

I was thinking the initial question referred to reduced loads - (same as downloading) both in bullet weight and speed - and consequently reduced power charge. I think some of the other guys thought the same.

But, I can see how reducing the bullet weight, and still retaining the full speed, could be considered a reduced load. The recoil will probably be a little less, say with the 110 gr compared to the 130 gr, but I'll bet the friend's Mom won't be able to tell the difference. Most new shooters are not as much recoil sensitive as they are blast sensitive. It's the same to them. So, the recoil has to be greatly reduced for them to tell any difference compared to full factory loads.

However, it is very good info to know of actual field experience with the Barnes 110gr TSX. It confirms my educated guess about the design of the Barnes 110 gr TSX. I suspect it would be devistating at full speed on a deer. From your posting, I couldn't determine if you are downloading the speed of the bullet to approximate the 6.8 mm Rem, or if you are loading a full charge of 4350?

I didn't do the math, but it would be interesting to know the remaining velocity of that bullet at 250 yards, if it started out at 2600 fps. The other specs would be informative too - such as the remaining energy, drop, etc.

Regards,
KB

To me, a reduced load is any factor that lessens recoil. I loaded about 1 grain over minimum of IMR4350 because it happened to be a tack driver. The recoil on this rifle is (to me) not even noticeable. Roughly the same as a 243. I will add that it has a Pachmyr Decelerator pad.

Not sure what the velocity is. Never bothered with it.

But, I'd use a 110 TSX over a Sierra varmint bullet any day.

quote:

Originally posted by WVHILLBILLYJLM:
I have a friend that wants me to download a 270 Win for his mom. Does anyone have any experiance with the 110gr seirra spitzer on deer sized game?
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by DOC:
To me, a reduced load is any factor that lessens recoil. I loaded about 1 grain over minimum of IMR4350 because it happened to be a tack driver. The recoil on this rifle is (to me) not even noticeable.

I'd use a 110 TSX over a Sierra varmint bullet any day.

DOC,
I think the original question was about a significant reduction in recoil, which would require a reduced load, such as the Remington Managed Recoil ammo, or the youth loads by Hogdgon.

I think downloading for the 270 is not necessary, but I think WVHB wants to download, and still get deer. I agree with you about the 270 being mild, and I personally have not had good luck with accuracy using significantly reduced loads. So, I would opt for the one grain over minimum 4350 loads you are using, because I like accuracy best.

However, info for WVHB, Hogdgon and other manuals specifically say to not reduce powders like 4350 and other slow powder below the minimum charge shown in the manuals. Hogdgon specifically uses H4895 as reduced load powder, and has tested it, so I can know it is safe, staying within their formula. Hodgdon says that loads using H4895 can be reduced to 60% of maximum, and I am assuming that anything in between would work too.

We are certainly in agreement about the use of the 110 gr Barnes in this situation. For a reduced load, staying within Hodgdon's formula, I would develop a load achieving the approximate speed of the 6.8mm, which is what this bullet was designed for.

KB

quote:

The traditional, flat base design of the Pro-Hunter® has been skillfully blended with Sierra's world-famous accuracy. Our custom-tapered Pro-Hunter® jacket design helps assure maximum expansion, optimum weight retention and deep penetration for game-stopping, one-shot performance.

From the Sierra website.

The 110 gr is the Pro-hunter design not a varmint bullet.

I don't have any experience with them, but I do have a couple of boxes that I am going to do the exact same thing with. ie reduced loads.

I think they will work, even better at a reduced velocity. That's my opinion only. Maybe I should go to the rifle range work up a quick load and go out and shoot couple of does this evening.

I should add that I planned on doing all of my deer hunting this fall with the Barnes 110gr TSX @ 3260fps.

I shot an antelope with this combo last week, quartering on. Broke the front leg and exited in front of the hindquarter. Performance was exactly what I have come to expect from Barnes. Great penetration (I have never recovered one) Without undue meat damage.

The deer I took with the Sierra 110 grain Pro Hunter were either angling toward me or away and I purposely avoided the shoulder to reduce bone fragments in the meat. I believe the bullets could have exited on a broadside shot if I had taken one. I reduced the velocity because 3300fps is not useful at ranges less than 100 yards, accuracy was outstanding and muzzle blast and recoil were very reasonable. I can see no benefit the TSX would have had the Sierra bullet did not posses.

Quote from RICKT300:
I loaded that bullet (Sierra 110 gr) for deer one year on top of 42.0 grains of 3031 for around 2800 fps. I shot three Texas whitetails at ranges under 100 yards. Though the bullet killed quickly and was very accurate it never exited. Pretty destructive tpp.

Quote from Stonybroke:
I killed about 6 PA whitetails with this bullet (Sierra 110 gr) using a LOT more 3031 than was mentioned above. My rifle has has a 24" tube. Speed was just under 3400. Accuracy is absolutely outstanding. Kills like the wrath of god, but you had better stay away from the eating meat.

Quote from El Deguello:
I have never shot a deer with the Sierra 110 grain .277" bullet. But I have shot a lot of porcupines and jackrabbits with it using 58 grains of IMR 4350 for the powder charge. At that load level, it fairly well disintegrates small varmints. I'd consider it on the explosive side for anything you want to eat. But maybe if you slowed it down to 2400-2500 FPS, it might work OK on deer.

Quote from Kabluewy:
On the other hand, according to the other input, the Sierra bullet you are thinking of using is explosive even though it is listed by Sierra as a hunting bullet. We know for sure it will act just like a varmint bullet at normal speed, and blow up to smithereens.

Quote from Sierra:
(They say this about all their pro-hunter bullets, including the 300gr .375 BT)
The traditional, flat base design of the Pro-Hunter® has been skillfully blended with Sierra's world-famous accuracy. Our custom-tapered Pro-Hunter® jacket design helps assure maximum expansion, optimum weight retention and deep penetration for game-stopping, one-shot performance.

Quote from DOC:
I can assure you that a 110 TSX from a 270 and IMR4350 is a reduced load and will kill any deer/antelope within reasonable shooting range, say, 250 yards. I've loaded that for my brother since the 110 TSX came out and he's taken at least a dozen head of game (if not twice that many). I loaded about 1 grain over minimum of IMR4350 because it happened to be a tack driver. The recoil on this rifle is (to me) not even noticeable. I've yet to film one animal that he's shot with this load that didn't buckle on impact and go stiff legged.

Quote from SDhunter:
I should add that I planned on doing all of my deer hunting this fall with the Barnes 110gr TSX @ 3260fps. I shot an antelope with this combo last week, quartering on. Broke the front leg and exited in front of the hindquarter. Performance was exactly what I have come to expect from Barnes. Great penetration (I have never recovered one) Without undue meat damage.

The 110 gr (Sierra) is the Pro-hunter design not a varmint bullet. I don't have any experience with them, but I do have a couple of boxes that I am going to do the exact same thing with. ie reduced loads. I think they will work, even better at a reduced velocity. That's my opinion only. Maybe I should go to the rifle range work up a quick load and go out and shoot couple of does this evening.

END QUOTES

Well, we heard from reliable sources that the Barnes 110 gr is effective, at full 270 speeds, even though it is made specifically for the 6.8mm, and the Sierra 110 gr kills deer, but works like a varmint bullet, even though it's listed as a Pro-Hunter.

Hopefully SDhunter will report on his field research, and let us know how well the reduced load Sierras perform on the does. That should be interesting.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I can see no benefit the TSX would have had the Sierra bullet did not posses.

For us, it is the security of bone impact. I prefer bone hits over lung shots. However, I suspect you are right if one chooses soft tissue shots only. I have more confidence with the TSX with my prefered shot placement. That is a benefit, but my opinion and experience.

In comparing the 110 gr .277 Sierra Pro Hunter to the Barnes 110 gr 6.8mm, the difference is that the Barnes generally passes all the way through the deer, where the Sierra doesn't. The reason is the Barnes will likely retain 100% of its weight and sectional density, if it performs like the other TSXs. Neither of these bullets is well endowed with sectional density, but what ever they have to start with the Barnes uses it all, and the Sierra uses a rapidly deminishing amount for the first few inches, before it is reduced to small pieces, yielding practically no sectional density or mass. The 110 gr Sierra sheds all its mass in the deer, and the Barnes keeps going, making a much longer wound channel.

I like Sierra bullets, and shoot them in every caliber I have, except the 9.3mm, and .458. I have a variety, and sometimes I just work up a load with match bullets for one of my hunting rifles, just to see how accurate it is. In every case I can remember, if a rifle can shoot accurately, it will show what it can do with Sierras, match, flat base and/or boat tail hunting bullets.

I have never used the match bullets for hunting, but the soft point hunting bullets are great for deer. I use them expecting that they will shed the jacket, but I use them in situations where that is not a problem. About two years ago I found on my shelf some 300 gr .375 Sierras. I don't remember how long I've had them, or where they came from, but I have a lot of them. So, I worked up a load, and was very pleased with the accuracy. I use them for deer hunting, with a slightly reduced load. I figure that if I have to shoot a brown bear, there will be enough mass to do the job, even if it breaks up, and doesn't go all the way through. Often I carry a Sierra load in the chamber, and a Swift 300 gr load as the second shot, on top in the magazine.

With my 35 Whelen, 338, 30-06, 308, and 280s, I have loads worked up which I know are accurate. I hunt with them sometimes, and use them as an accuracy standard to measure the comparative performance of other load combinations in a particular rifle. At least I know the rifle will shoot something accurately, so it saves me time in load development testing by being able to accept or reject certain loads more quickly, and move on. The Sierras are much more affordable too.

I just don't expect the Sierras to perform like a bonded bullet, or like the Barnes. I have learned that their primary redeeming quality is accuracy, and used on deer they are deadly too. Their tendency to come apart is the reason I would't use a light Sierra bullet for the caliber to shoot anything bigger than a coyote. That way, with enough initial bullet weight, there is still plenty of bullet left, generally, to get the job done, even if it sheds most of its weight and doesn't exit.

That's why I would never choose the 110gr .270 Sierra for deer hunting, reduced loads or not. I believe the Sierras of normal to heavy weight for the given caliber will still open up just fine at reduced velocity, and stay together better than the light bullets and penetrate deeper, even if going slower, or perhaps because they are traveling slower. These bullets are just plain soft.

Another bullet that will open up at reduced velocity is the partition. It's almost a sure thing as far as bullet performance at less than full speed.

The special thing about the 110 gr Barnes is that it is designed to open up at 6.8mm speeds, yet it still holds together at high velocity. That's rather unique.

Anyway, that's my thoughts and experience on the subject.

KB

Instead of the 110gr varmint bullet, why not download a soft 130gr like the Speer or Sierra? I would think Mom could handle 130gr@2500fps. That feels about like a .243 w/ 100gr.

I should add that I have downloaded Hornady 140gr BTSP to 2400fps. Accuracy was acceptable for hunting but not tack driving. My wife and nephews have shot 7 total deer with this combo.

The bullet did as expected and we actually recovered two of them. Both were found in the offside hindquarter. Typical mushroom and I can't remember what the retained weight was.
All of the shots were < 100yards. The broadsides shots were all pass throughs.

I will definitely report back, probably after this weekend. I will get to the range and work up some reduced and full power loads for the 110gr Sierra and report back. I have 10 doe tags, so that should give a pretty good idea of performance.

I have 100% confidence in the TSX's.

I was thinking of the lighter bullet at a higher velocity would give the same felt recoil and flatter trajectory, and dead deer. Vs the 140gr BTSP.

I have not done this one but..........

Many of the single shot pistol loads work well as reduced recoil and the bullets still work as well as they should. So when doing homework on reduced loads this can be a good way to cut down on time spent. Nate

Remington has served me well for the first 50 years, guess I will stick with them.