The debate rages - buy the Winchester M70 or the Kimber 8400 in a long action - which would you buy assuming prices are equal?

Question:
Which would you buy assuming the prices are equal and both are CRF- Winchester Model 70 or Kimber 8400 ?

Choices:
Kimber 8400
Winchester Model 70

 

Right now, I think the Kimber's are a better made product.

"prices are equal"

Does that mean the 70 is priced resaonalby or overhyped like we see in the market now, which woudl make the Kimber over priced

Hikerbum,
I just wanted to take "price" out of the evaluation.

I own a Kimber 84M and have owned Win M-70 Fwt (CRF)...Kimber easily wins in quality department, in fact I traded the M70 for the 84M.

I have owned quite a few of each and still own several examples of both.
-M-70's have a better trigger.
-Kimber's have prettier wood though the black walnut in M-70's is probably more stable
-M-70's have more aftermarket goodies since they've been around longer

In about every other way I can think of Kimbers are better. Barrels, Fit, Quality, Weight, Service, etc.

..................DJ

KIMBER.

I own both a Kimber 8400 and a M70 SuperGrade. I have put more money into the M70 in aftermarket accuracy work than I paid upfront for the Kimber and on its best day, the M70 doesn't shoot as well as the Kimber out of the box.

My vote goes to the Kimber.

Kimber SuperAmerica or regular? Winchester regular or Supergrade (and what year and CRF or not)? Different answers for me.

Kimber of America Model 8400WSM Select Grade in .300 WSM

Winchester M70 Supergrade in .338WM with CRF. I don't know the year as I am not the first owner, but it's not recent.

Nice pair!

I voted the Kimber 8400 but would rather use my Kimber 89 Supergrade Hunter model in 300 Win. mag. Its very accurate, well made and looks great with the factory laminate stock...much nicer than todays laminate stocks.

Bought one of the last run Stainless classics in 375 H&H. The gun, out of the box, won't feed, When the bolt is worked briskly the rounds jump the feed rails. The kimber I have in 338wm will feed and eject empty cases. I'm assuming it will do the same with loaded rounds. I'll find out this week after I get some loaded. As to accuracy I don't know, Just bought the 8400 and am too angry with the Winchester to devote much more thought to it. I guess I like the Kimber better in my limited experience.

I am really looking to par down the amount of rifles that I keep around here... and move up in quality on what I do have....including optics..

Exploring the world of switch barrels on the subject....

I am not going to get into the Kimber vs Model 70 argument, because I have never had a Kimber and I love Model 70s...

I will not be getting rid of any Model 70 I own... or should I say my son owns as I have given all of them to him...

But I can see a Kimber 8400 in the future here, when a few of these other rifles have found new homes...every one I have seen was really a class piece of workmanship...

I am also looking heavily at the Montana barreled actions also...I can see one of those in my future or my wife's future real soon also..

cheers
seafire

This is a little hard without having the specific rifle in front of you. Kimber makes a really nice rifle and I own an 84 Montana that is about the most perfect out of the box, ready to go rifle I have ever owned. It came with a sweet trigger, glass bedded and free floated in a real fiberglass handle.

I've also owned a couple of Supergrade model 70s that have been nearly perfect out of the box. One particular .338 WIn Mag was one of the most accurate rifles I ever owned. Most model 70s need some tweeking. Their triggers are usually too heavy and they can normally benefit from glass bedding. I think the WInchester factory finish wood stocks are more durable than the Kimber stocks...their oil finish seems awfully porus and I've seen more than a few warped Kimber forends on dealer shelves.

Taking money out of the equation isn't really fair because the WInchester can normally be found for about $500 and a Kimber standard grade gun is about $900. $400 will buy alot more than a bedding and trigger job!

Simply in terms of out of the box ready to go Kimber wins. But at a significantly higher price point.

Call a Kimber a factory rifle if you want but it's more custom I think. This is almost like comparing a Stevens 200 to a David Miller rifle. I recently bought a model 70 featherweight and it's one of the nicest rifles I've owned in a long time. Accurate and I've done nothing to it. I'll take the Model 70.

I've had lots of pre 64 model 70's. I really like them, but as I get older I haven't liked the weight. Bought a 8400 300wsm not for the caliber but for the rifle, like it so much that I bought another in 270wsm tweaked the triggers that were not bad but I'm fussy, they are smooth and function flawlessly and fit like a glove and shoot very very well the new classics stock don't hold a candle in my view.

quote:

Originally posted by boatammo:
I've had lots of pre 64 model 70's. I really like them, but as I get older I haven't liked the weight. Bought a 8400 300wsm not for the caliber but for the rifle, like it so much that I bought another in 270wsm tweaked the triggers that were not bad but I'm fussy, they are smooth and function flawlessly and fit like a glove and shoot very very well the new classics stock don't hold a candle in my view.

Tell me something Boatammo.

Are the Kimber Model 8400 Standard & Magnum Rifles a close copy(Action,bolt,ejector etc) of the CRF Winchester M70's(Pre-64 & current model)?

Cheers,


PS-Also,are the 300WM/338WM action length the same as the 30-06 in these Kimbers?
How many actions do they make?

When we went to Africa this past June I took a Kimber 8400 Montana in .300 WSM and my cousin took a Model 70 in .300 Win. Mag. Subjectively, while they were both nice rifles the Kimber seemed much more pleasant to shoot despite weighing 2-3 pounds less than the Winchester. I would happily take either into the field if equipped with like optics, but the Kimber would be my first choice far ahead of the Winchester.

I would like to have a Stainless Kimber in 7MM WSM but I found a Stainless Model 70 in 300 WSM
that shoots cloverleaf 3 shot groups and functions perfectly. I really like the feel and looks of the Kimber but I have Win. Classic rifles in 270, 300 Win Mag, 308,338 Win Mag,

and 300 WSM. All shoot and function great and the only thing I can see that the Kimber has over them is that it is lighter.

Hawkeye47

I don't own either but have fired both... Not enough to have a functional opinion but I did like the fit and finish of the Kimber... They seem well made and function smoothly...

Ken....

I have a kimber montana 8400 in 300wsm, they say the barrel is free floated but it wasnt, it was touching on the sides and in other random areas. the factory bedding job is a bit rough so you might want to redo it. my barrel was internally as rough as guts but 200shots later its looking a bit better. barrel is a little light for my liking, id prefer a heavier contour barrel and a longer LOP. otherwise it shoots ok with reloads, although after 10 shots of so shooting prone off sand bags ive nearly had enough of the recoil.

there isnt really anything aftermarket for the kimber, i had to modify mounts so i could have a different ring style.

well thats enough complaining for now

The Kimber is basically a pre-64 Winchester rifle with some improvements - no coned breach & a better bolt stop. I have a feeling a will become the number one choice for new purchases as far as American made rifles are concerned, taking over from Winchester, Remington and Dakota with the current problems that they experience. The only real American competitor would be the Ruger, but I think the Kimber is a notch ahead.

Some may not like Kimber's blind magazine, but offers other good features, such as a good adjustable trigger, its stock design is rather attractive in comparison with rival products and it is nicely finished. Generally it offers a proven and well designed hunting rifle package. All in all, good value for money and far better looking than a CZ550 for perhaps a little bit more money. The CZ550 must have the ugliest factory fitted sights around and the cheap recoil pad does not do much to improve its looks.

Chris

PS: Retail prices are:

$1,087 for the Classic,
$1,228 for the Montana, and
$2,036 for the SuperAmerica.The SuperAmerica version wears a AAA-grade claro walnut stock with wraparound 24-lines-per-inch checkering and black forend tip, and its metal gets a polished, deep blue finish.

Another intersting tid bit:

The Kimber Model 8400 is a controlled-round feed action with a long Mauser extractor. Unlike pure Mauser rifles, the extractor will slip over the case rim so single-feeding into the chamber is possible.

The action is pillar bedded and the barrel free floated. Actions are pillar bedded for strength and accuracy. Twin aluminum pillars are bonded into every stock and support the receiver under guard screw tension and recoil.

Also, unlike the Kimber 84M, the 8400 has a genuine three-position safety that allows unloading from the middle position with the safety engaged. Forward is "fire," while the rear position locks the bolt with the safety engaged.

The stock is American Classic style with a good, straight butt, nicely proportioned round cheekpiece, and a good thick one-inch Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad.

Chris

yea, but there is something about that Kimber bolt handle that looks funny.

Chris,

I don't agree that the Kimber is "basically a pre-64 Model 70 with improvements". To me it looks more like a Rem 700 with CRF and three position safety added on. There are a lot of basic differences between a Kimber and a pre-64 Model 70. The Kimber may be a fine rifle in its own right, but it's hardly an improved pre-64. IMHO!

This is not an easy question to answer with just a check mark. The thing is that the late M70 Classics were sloppy and now we anticipate that they might be made better soon. As for the current inventory of M70 Classics I would not touch one.

To comment on the Kimber safeties. The early NY Kimbers had a two position one but now both the 84M and 8400's have three position safeties. The safeties on the Kimbers are much easier to use than any M70 safety. The Kimbers not only move easier and with less noise but are a little smaller. This results in a (Kimber) safety thats easy to articulate with your thumb and this is not nearly so easy to do with any M70. I went thru quite a bit of work to slick a M70 Classics safety and while it's much better it's not nearly as good as any of the five Kimbers that I have had and they needed no work.

Winchester has nothing like the Kimber 84M's or 8400 WSM's in terms of weight let alone the superior stocks that the Kimber Montana's have but this topic is about long actions and I am not a fan of the Kimber 8400 long action.

That action is really a magnum 3.6" action with a spacer in the magazine. Never the less the last M70's that I saw were unacceptable and Kimber cares about what they are doing. As I said I would not touch the current M70 new inventory with an eleven foot pole.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
yea, but there is something about that Kimber bolt handle that looks funny.

The Kimber bolt handles are just a screw machine shape screwed into the bolt body. The could use some upgrade art wise and scope clearance wise on the 8400's.

The M70's current bolt handle is an investment casting brazed on to the end of the bolt body.

Savage

I am surprised to hear you say that you think the Kimber is tighter (less sloppy) than the current 70s. When I was shopping for a .325 earlier this fall I looked at quite a few Kimbers in three different retail establishments. I closed the bolts on all of them, and was able to detect movement in a closed bolt. NOT SO with the 70 WSMs that I looked at.

Kimbers are nice, but they ain't (is that a word) perfect, and a bit overpriced as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
yea, but there is something about that Kimber bolt handle that looks funny.

I think the 84M bolt handle/bolt/action is way to puny & dainty IMHO .
They should of built the 84M action in man's size instead of elf's.
Even if it meant more weight,it's to small IMO.

It's a completely different story with the 8400 actions,as they seem to have gone the standard size bolt/action .



PS-Using the 8400 action for 308W family of cartridges,mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Savage

I am surprised to hear you say that you think the Kimber is tighter (less sloppy) than the current 70s. When I was shopping for a .325 earlier this fall I looked at quite a few Kimbers in three different retail establishments. I closed the bolts on all of them, and was able to detect movement in a closed bolt. NOT SO with the 70 WSMs that I looked at.

Kimbers are nice, but they ain't (is that a word) perfect, and a bit overpriced as well.

I called the late M70's sloppy due to my experiance with the stock quality, finish, bedding, and fit. One stock that I had was too low in a stack height sense in that it was 'bedded' on the magazine box and the action did not touch the stock. When the magazine box was cut down then the screw threads bottomed out on the receiver. Finally I threaded the screws further.

Also the chamber is .0019" out of round. This is gross out of round. Winchester would do nothing about these complaints as the rifle sat in a repair station for half a year.

Please explain what you mean about a bolt moving when closed.

340 Wby,

The idea of the 84M is to have a light rifle built around the 308 and smaller rounds. I prefer the 84M to the 8400. It's a mini mouser!

To each his own.

I understand that.
IMO the 84M would be better if it at least had a bigger bolt handle.
As it would add next to nothing in weight,& allot better in the hand.

340 Wby,

I don't agree at all. In fact I much prefer the small hold handle on the 84M's to the 8400's having both. The 84M's handle easily clears the scope eyepiece and the larger 8400's does not.

Whats too small about it? Do you mean that it looks too small or it's somehow too small for your use?

Do a search and I participated in a topic where I showed many pictures of various bolt handles and my point was that it's the 8400 that could use a bolt that clears the scope eyepiece much better.

Here is the 8400's bolt up against a 3-9 Conquest.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Here is the 8400's bolt up against a 3-9 Conquest.

Here is how Ruger does it.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
340 Wby,

I don't agree at all. In fact I much prefer the small hold handle on the 84M's to the 8400's having both. The 84M's handle easily clears the scope eyepiece and the larger 8400's does not.

Whats too small about it? Do you mean that it looks too small or it's somehow too small for your use?

The bolt-handle is to small IMO,especially for large hands.

quote:

Do a search and I participated in a topic where I showed many pictures of various bolt handles and my point was that it's the 8400 that could use a bolt that clears the scope eyepiece much better.

That leads me to my next point.
I could never work out why Kimber went with the dead-straight(No cut-aways nor swept back) bolt-handle,when they should of gone with something proven like the Winchester Model 70 or Ruger M77.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Here is the 8400's bolt up against a 3-9 Conquest.

That is really amazing and the first time I've heard of that design problem. Anybody got an idea about how they mount a scope on them, or is it only a problem with the Zeiss?

If you use Leupold,it's not that much of a problem.

Just another reason why LEUPOLD is KING IMO.They don't make oculars the size of objectives .

I have a Kimber Longmaster in .308. My original problems were an occasional failure to fire and accuracy. The only way I could get good accuracy was to put the bullet ogive .010 off the lands. This made the cartridge to long to fit in the magazine.
I took the rifle to one of the better gunsmiths in the area for examination (I didn’t want to mess with sending the rifle back to Kimber), what was found was a firing pin bore in the bolt was very rough and poor action bedding.
I still have the occasional misfire and the accuracy remained the same. I also see that the firing pin strikes are off center as well. Could this be the cause of the misfires and accuracy issues?
It looks like I will be sending this rifle back to Kimber. All in all a disappointing experience for the money.

Dave Hyde