I would vote for the .35 Caliber as the most under appreciated of all. There are great .358 chamberings in cluding the Winchester and Whelen. I shoot a couple of .358 STA's that are awesome indeed. You can load them slow or very fast, going from .358 Win speeds to must faster speeds that compare to .340 Wby. I shoot 270 grain bullets at 3000 fps, 250 grain bullets at 3100 fps and 225 grain bullets at 3200 fps. Compare those .358 bullets to many smaller and larger pills and they are hard to beat. More speed than .375's with better S.D.'s. When I wanted something larger in Caliber I jumped over the .375's to the .416's. Now you can certainly improve the .375's with wildcats or Weatherby's that would step on up also. Once again, I vote for the .358 Caliber as the most underappreciated of all, leading the .323's by a small margin. Just my .02's worth. Good shooting.

I would venture the 8X57. Why? Because of it's similarity to the 30-06 it was never really picked up on by the American hunter, so hence, the American ammunition manufacturers have been slow or reluctant to put forth the R&D dollars to develop premium bullets or even load for it (whew! now THAT was a long sentence ). Those commerical loads that are found are usually anemic, having been made for the surplus rifles collected today. Of course this arguement may not necessarily hold water in Europe.

Considering the range of the "medium bore" calibers on this forum, which caliber do you think has been the most under-developed, unappreciated and overlooked of them all?

Part 2 - Why? What makes your choice so hot and why do you think it's been overlooked?

I've got an opinion of my own and, I think, some shocking ideas about the "why" part...but would like to see some other opinions before I muddy the water with my 2 cents worth.

It's got to be the 8mm.

Though I'm an American who's grown up with the .30 calibers (and recently has gotten onto the 7mm bandwagon as well), I'll acknowledge that the 8mm has a big advantage in internal ballistics over either with the usual bullet weights due to the significantly larger bore surface area. You can accelerate those bullets to a higher speed with the same or less pressure. The 8mm handles heavy bullets well. Where it falls behind the .308" calibers and the 7mms is in ballistic coefficients for very long range shooting. Within 200-300 yards it isn't a big handicap, and that's certainly where most game shooting is done.

Since Ricochet has first dibbs on the 8mm's I'll say the 35 Whelen. Not a whole lot of interest in it (until recent times) over the years. Bein' a 35 cal and a wildcat all those years probably had a lot to do with it. Bullet selection wasn't all that great either. Tell ya' what, I sure do like the M98 I have it chambered in.

I see Ricochet beat me to the punch by a couple of minutes. Great minds think alike!

I guess we can call that 2 votes for the .323 bore. And like JohnK, I love an 8x57 in particular......but this isn't the caliber I would pick for this question.

We'll all kick our pet theories around later at the campfire.

Too me... its the 35 whelen. I have no experiance with the 8mm, but can deduce that they are probably simular to the 338-06 and 30-06. My shooting buddy Kile owns a 338-06, and no longer cares for it. When I lived next door to him in Alaska I had a rebarreled 35 whelen, we shot side by side at alot of game with the two and never saw a diff in penetration. The 338-06 did do less dammage, and is about on par with a 30-06 in terms a damage. So where does that leave us? I donno? The 35whelen to me is where I start seeing a diff between the 3 cartridges. Fine cartridge I wish I had not sold it

I must always walk on the road less traveled. It is a curse, let me tell you.

I empathize with the 8 x 57, but I still have to venture to the 6.5 bore (okay, the medium bores on here start at 277, but I consider the 6.5 a medium bore)

My votes go in the order of 6.5 x 57, 6.5 x 55, 7x57, 32 WinSpecial, and the 30/30 seems to be overlooked by everyone except Farmer Browne anymore, who shoots it because it is cheap ammo, and the gun has been in the family 5 generations.

If I can go lower in bore diameter, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25/35, 25/20.

I must be a bleeding heart refuge for all the long forgotten orphan cartridges anymore. Oh well, I have been accused of worse things, lol/.

I would say it's a toss up between the, 8x57, 8mm Rem Mag, and the .270 Redding. All great cartridges I have never owned. hmmm,



As for part two, I can't add much to what has been said all ready about the various 8mm's.

As for the .270 Redding well, can you say .270Win! enough said.

To me that would be the 10.75 x 68..Here is a round that can be made on any std. length action and compete with the big bores on dangerous game with a .423 bullet (404) that will shoot a 350 gr. bullet at 2375 FPS and a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 plus, and do that in a very light rifle, packable rifle of 8.5 pounds without knocking out your fillings. It is a beltless case of small deminsion. It will also hold an extra round in most magazines...It has been around for a century but overlooked because in the beginning it had bad bullets, not the case at all today....

Hmm. in medium bore, underdeveloped. I would have to say, of ones that are no longer wildcats (the first step in development might be said to be commercialization, because really no manufacturer would pickup and start making ammo for a rifle that only 200 americans owned).

I would say possibly the 35 whelen. A fantabulous cartridge that should never have a bad thing said about it. True other cartridges might perform close or do the same thing, maybe even better. but for the case size, pressure, etc. it is a great cartridge. the parent case is arguably one of the best cases ever designed, and the 35 whelen may be it's greatest incarnation. It was handicapped early by too short of barrels. You must have 24" to really perform. And it is limited now by the ammo manufactured for it. And who anymore chambers it? A Winchester Classic in 35 whelen would be a great gun.

BUT that is not my choice for this. I am going to go with a pair of cartridges, since they are siblings. The 308 and 358 Norma Mags. Almost everyone overlooks them, very few ever show up in 358 (308 are more common because so many after WWII wanted more umph out of the springfields and it was an easy conversion for the gunsmiths, whom I think were provided with reamers by Norma). One of the biggest mistakes Winchester ever made was not buying the rights to them from Norma, thereby having two mags early on that were great, and never getting into the whole 300win fiasco.

Because of no factory chambered guns in the Norma cartridges ammo selection sucks (only from Norma, and I think they only offer one load per cartridge). I think that this is one of the greatest travesties in medium bore firearms. I wish some big manufacturer would produce these (other than Remington please).

Red

Despite the description of this forum (not my choice) dropping down to 27 cal, I personally look at medium bores as over 30 cal, and up to 375 cal.

In that vein, the 8mm is the most overlooked in the states. I can't really add much to the others posts. The bullet selection is minimal, and the most common rifle is the milsurp 8X57 with dubious quality barrels being the norm.

I'm sure it is a fine enough round, but with the 30-06 having the huge selection of bullets and rifles, and the 338 win mag being much more gun, I really don't see what niche the 8mm fills.

Without a doubt the answer is the 30 Newton. Way ahead of its time and as modern as today but neglected as yesterday's fried eggs. It really is strange it didn't have a resurgence back when the 300 H&H was winning at Camp Perrey. The 8X57 is a good choice ,however,along with the 7x57.I know it doesn't fit here but the 6.5X 54 was another great cartridge that didn't take off. roger

I am surprised no one has mentioned the 9.3x64. Much like Ray's 10.75x68, if brass was more readily available, both would be popular with Alaska/Africa hunters. Bob

I did consider the 9.3X64, but then considered the surge in popularity of the 9.3X62. I also don't know what the 9.3X64 offers over the 375 H&H

As a caliber in general, the 8mm's just don't get no respect.

I'm surprised you guys missed this one . . . so I'm voting for it.

.34 Caliber - 0.348" Bore

Only one caliber (348 Win) and pretty much a flop at that.

My sob story goes something like this. When my father-in-law retired and left Alaska, he owned a M71 in .348. He knew I was an avid hunter and never gave me a first right of refusal to buy it or give it to me. Never forgave him that that smooth move either!!!!

OK, time for old Pecos to show his cards. Some of you mentioned some good cartridges, but honestly that really wasn't the question. The question was about CALIBER...not a pet cartridge.

There is no RIGHT answer, of course, so no one should look for a grade at the top of their paper. This is just campfire talk and for what it's worth I've always felt like the .35 bore has been sadly neglected.

The irony here is I've never owned a .35 caliber rifle other than two very different pieces chambered for .357 Mag. But this omission is because I've never had an opportunity to BUY a decent rifle in .35 caliber.

It seems to me there should always be an over-the-counter rifle available in the little .358 Win and a .35 Whelen and then something bigger still. The .358 S.T.A. certainly qualifies as "something bigger" and if it isn't enough rifle, then the buyer should obviously move up a caliber or two.

Why am I keen on the .35 bore? First, I think you gain enough bullet diameter to be of significance. Nothing is obviously going to notice the difference between getting hit by a .277 bullet or a 7mm. But the jump from our traditional American bore of .30 cal up to .35 should make a difference.

Secondly, at least in my little mind, that increase in bore size translates to a more lethal projectile.

Third, this advantage would be available in any standard size and weight rifle and action. In fact, it would be no trick to make a carbine out of the .358, or even the Whelen if a guy were of a mind to. Both of these cartridges are very efficient performance wise.

And if the factories will crank out good bullets from say 175 to 265 grains, with bullets about every 25 grs or so, then I think the bullet selection would allow shooters to hunt anything within their power range.

The 8mm is a fine cartridge and bore...but bullet selection sucks and I think the notion of this ever being a big splash is doomed because of the bullet issue.

You guys championing the .338 bore.....all I can say is just be patient! I think the best days of the .338 are yet to come, personally. It meets my desire for a significant jump over the .30 bore and there is a good selection of bullets available already.

I think the .338 bore is a mighty worthy candidate for some great rifles, some of which may already be on some shooters shelves. We just need the test of time like the 270 and 06 to enjoy before we start calling some of the .338s legends, etc. IMHO.
-------------------------
Finally, what shook me up a bit was the question of WHY a lot of this hasn't already occurred. We don't have any new species of animals to deal with so why have we been so slow creating the .338s and adopting some of the 9.3 breeds from Europe. Why no interest in the 8X57?

I think, and just my opinion, that America is just really the land of the .30 calibers. The American shooter is very "steered" by the direction our military goes.....and for about 100 years that direction has been down the barrel of .30 caliber rifles. That's a hell of an influence!

But it goes deeper than that. These .30 caliber rifles have been wonderfully AVAILABLE to all of us...at least until the idiot days of GCA's and the anti's scorn for anything that goes bang. But availability has doubly insured America, for the most part, thinks .30 caliber. It's no accident the /06 is the king

Furthermore, I think American shooters are more appreciative of velocity and flat trajectory than a lot of our brother shooters from Europe and other parts of the world. This isn't any criticism of the other shooters, just that America is a big place with huge areas where a hunter can shoot about as far away as he can find a target. Europeans, I think, are more careful and conservative about throwing lead around.

Again, in my worthless opinion, I think American shooters worship TOO MUCH at the alter of velocity and trajectory. If such a thing came on the market, I have visions of every American rushing out and buying a rifle that shot at the speed of light and a perfectly flat trajectory. Then we could all just forget marksmanship. I'm willing to bet most hunters in Europe are more conservative.

But finally, I ask myself what's the bottom line why these other calibers have been ignored, neglected and so late in coming? I think the answer is simply because the .30 caliber works. The .30 caliber has served America superbly and still does.....and always will. And it comes with a recoil package than most of us can easily tolerate.

Like the old American expression says, "If it works, don't fix it." And I think for this reason alone we may always stay the land of the .30 caliber and all of our pet "under-developed calibers" will probably stay that way.

My opinions on this subject are worth just what you paid for them. Enjoy. If anyone has some other thoughts, I'd still love to read them.

Jim

Pecos,

You should have asked which is the best medium bore, and I certainly would have stated the 35 caliber The only problem is a lack of suitable factory rifles, but having a custom made is no big deal, nor necessarily a big expense. Any reasonably competent gun plumber can assemble a 358 win, 35 whelen or 358 Norma for ~$500. Sure, that nearly doubles the cost of the factory gun you started with, but you'll have a rifle superiour to a factory rig as well.

I believe you are mis-informed at best on the issue of bullets. There are the pistol bullets for varmints and plinking, cast and jacketed, 110, 125, 158, 160, 180 and 200 gr.

It is a bullet casters dream, with countless pistol and rifle molds available. That said I am content with but three, a 160 gr rf Lee mold, a 200 gr gc LBT mold, and Lymans sadly discontinued 358009 that drops ~280 gs. A small dose of Unique will propell the 160 gr @ 800 fps, much quiter than a 22 rf, no recoil, and same power as a 38 special. You should have no problem keeping them inside a soda can at 50 yds. Next up is the 200 gr @ 1400 fps, 357 magnum power and then some, mild recoil, and they seem to stay in 1" groups @ 50 yds. Lastly the 280 gr @ 2000 fps, which even the 358 win can achieve. I was suprised to group 5 of these into a 1" 100 yd group, my best ever cast group and from a cheapy Midway barrel! These are capable of taking any NA game animal at reasonable ranges, not bad for re-cycled tire weights.

Then the rifle bullets in jacketed or monometal 200, 225, 250, 270, 280 and 310 gr. There have been some 150 and 180 gr bullets in the past, but I really don't see any reason to drop below 200 grs. The -06 case can push 200's 2900 fps, 225's 2700 fps and 250's 2500 fps. Go up to the belted 2.5" case, ie 358 Norma and add 200 fps to each bullet weight. You could go up to the STA case and gain another 100 fps or so, but me thinks it's time to go to a larger dia if you want more gun. You can drop down to the 358 win case, and loose ~200 fps. That said, the 225 gr @ 2500 fps is an honest 250 yd round for any NA game, likely superiour to all lessor bores

From ermine to elephants, the 35 is more than capable.

It is of course the 9,3x63.

The cartridge was introduced 1902 - 1904, about 10 years before the .375 H&H and about 20 yeras before Brenneckes 9,3x64 -but the 9,3x63 deliveres about the same performance as these two.

The 9,3x63 was made on a necked down 10,75x68 case or was the 10,75x68 made on a necked up 9,3x63 case???

Husky

Well, I've been reading these very interesting posts, although I had my own idea as to which bore was the most underdeveloped.
I have to agree with those who said the 35 caliber is the one most ignored. Being the owner of a Marlin in .35 Rem., several .358 Winnies, and several .35 Whelens, I think I feel qualified to make a few comments. One. Ruger and Remington screwed up royally by giving their .35 Whelens a 1 in 16" twist, as did Ruger on the 1 in 16" twist given their M77 in .358 Win.
IIRC, when Howe developed the .35 Whelen, he used a 1 in 12" twist. When Winchester brought out the .358, they used a 1 in 12" twist. My custom Mauser has a 1 in 14" twist and it just barely stabilizes the Lyman #3589/#358009 mold I have. Neither the Ruger or the Remington will handle that bullet. (Guess I'll just have to build me another .35 Whelen. Gosh, like I need an excuse.
My second gripe is Remington did not bring out ammo that delivers the full potential of the cartridge. They say 2400 FPS, but I don't come close in either the Remington or Ruger, at 2310 to 2330 FPS, although the Mauser is closer ar 2350 FPS. Now I can understand their reluctance to do it, due to all the old 1895 Winchesters and 1903 Springfields that were either rebored or rebarreled to the Whelen. I have seen two 1895 Winchesters at gun shows that had been converted to the Whelen, but I passed on them. I figure that if I want a lever gun in ther Whelen, then I'll convert my 1895 Browning. I'd stick to factory level loads in that one though.
My Savage 99 in .358 will do 1.25", (1 in 12" twist) as will my First version Browning BLR. My two Ruger 77s in .358 do shotgun patterns, and are a POS as far as I'm concerned. They don't even shoot 200 gr. bullets worth a damn, unless you like 3.5" groups.
My choice of bullet for the Whelen is the 250 gr. Speer hot core. My pen pals in Canada use them for moose and say they'll shoot clean through the shoulders and keep on going. One drew a coveted grizzly bear tag and he said he wasn't gonna bother loading any premium bullets, the Speer should work just fine. This comes from a fellow who's hunted with the Whelen for over ten years. I'll take his word on it. If I could just draw a damned elk tag, I'd find out if he's right, but till then, I'll use 'em.
Paul B.

Gratifying to see some agreement on the .35 bore, although I hasten once again to say there is no right answer here.

Paul, my big dream for owning a .35 caliber rifle has always been to play with cast bullets. So I quite agree with you that the .35 bore is a cast bullet shooters wet dream IN ADDITION to what it can achieve with jacketed bullets.

However, I deliberately did not open the cast bullet subject as it's something of a parallel universe.

I HAVE on the other hand played with cast bullets in 8X57s and this wonderful old cartridge eats them with delight. I've sort of had a theory that the bigger the bore, the more easily a gun can be tuned up for lead bullets. Some of the smaller calibers I've played with in my life were pretty tempermental. But about .30 caliber, it almost seemed like anything would work. But that's another subject.

Also, good points on the TWIST for a .35 caliber rifle. Anyone serious about taking large and even dangerous game with the .35s obviously needs the 1-12 twist so they can shoot the big bad bullets. THIS is what the .35 is all about to me, a rifle caliber that can give a shooter some serious projectiles and still be just an "ordinary rifle." Rebarrel any worn out standard length bolt action rifle and you're back in business with a serious weapon for this hemisphere...and several of our members do some fine work in Africa with Whelens as well. I think Longbob has taken giraffe with his and an adult giraffe is a big critter.

Pecos if your talking negelected then my vote goes to the 9.3x62. This cartridge is truly a well balanced powerful round yet still capable of being mastered by anyone who can master a 30/06.

I know Europe has embraced this round but it is a real shame America/Australia etc. have not.

If I could figure out the load that my stepfather used in the Whelen AI that he gave me I'd be in heaven. he was getting around 2800 chronographed with 225's leaving that 26" tube. :-) I think brass is the problem in the equation I am having though, he used winchester 06 sized up, I tried starting with the Remington whelen brass. hmmmm.....

So although I misunderstood the question I was still on with my cartridges, as two of the three I mentioned were .358. I think that it is greatly underserved, and poorly wildcatted of late. I am speaking of course of the writer to had a 35cal made on the ultramag, his published results sucked. Before he did it I was sitting around with Jerry looking at a case and discussing opening my 1917 Rem. (the whelen) up to see how it would perform. If I remember correctly the guy that did it had numbers lower than both the 300 ultra and 375 ultra, which makes no sense. I just remember we read the article and were thinking, "what did this dink do wrong?"

Let's not forget the often overlooked 350mag that came out in the great little 600's and 660's. Now revived in the new Remington short action rifle. Maybe that will be cause enough for more bullet selection if it takes off. I know that Jerry had two loads he carried, his 225 sierra game king and a 275 grain barnes.

You said about 500 for a setup to 358 norma should be about the cost huh? Hmmm....need to see about making that 03a3 a match to the 308 Norma......

Thanks a lot for the topic Pecos, I am loving reading all this. After this is over lets do the same on small and large bore! :-)

Red

Its deffinately the 8mm of any variety. First of all people keep saying the bullet selection sucks well that can't be farther from the truth. Just about all major if not all major brands make great bullets for the 8mm. So that is not an excuse. I do love my 338 win mag but I am thinking when I get my funds to do a custon 8mm rem mag. Now It seems like most here say that the 338 is better but do to larger diameter or selection of bullets but I just feel the 8mm rem mag would be an awesome long range big game rifle. to me I just can't see it getting any better. JMO.

But the 8 mm is the most underrated by far.

Brian

Seems to me that the biggest reasons for a lack of caliber development are overlap and the previous success of other calibers. Theres not much reason for getting all fired up about developing the .303 bore since the 30 cals have surpassed them by such a significant margin. And anyone who has a 30 cal and a 338 doesnt have much need for an 8mm, although the 8 would suffice where either of the other two are good candidates.



The 35 caliber always reaches the forefront of these topics too, but in retrospect I suppose one could say that it is doing as well as could be expected. I view the 35's as a great fit for game the size of Elk on up to the largest NA game, which frankly fits into quite a small piece of the american pie. Where it could really get a shot in the arm is if it were more widley accepted in Africa. A good 35 in Africa would be outstanding for all but the very toughest of beasts.



Now if the subject is most unappreciated cartridges, I would cast my vote for the various Gibbs chamberings. Reaching near magnum performance with a standard length beltless cases shows a lot of virtues and fills a void that is otherwise only filled with more powder. Europeans have their equivalent of these cartridges and their success reflects their qualities.



I cant recall the name, but someone else has basically stollen the Gibbs idea and is peddeling them as "wonder cartridges" that only they have the reamers for.

Hi all,

I'm new to this board, but I've been lurking around here for a while. I'd have to agree with the assessment that the .358 and .323 bores are some of the most overlooked, but since we're discussing calibers and cartridges that seem to have been swept under the rug, what about the .303 cartridge and .311 bore? I know thise was pretty much a military bore size, but there's bound to have been some development is the civilian sector that's all but gone by the wayside, right?

Without getting into the merits of many European cartridges, I can't see any of them amounting to much here in the Colonies. Certainly this is not to say Europe has designed some dandies and as a group more efficient than the average American cartridge.

The problem is Americans just never seem to get excited about cartridges with metric names. The only ones which have made much of a splash over here at all are the 6.5, the 7mm and the 8mm. And the only reason THEY made a ripple is because of the flood of used military rifles.

I'm not saying this is good at all...just a fact. I think Americans are suckers for advertising hype and the notion that my neighbor may have a rifle that shoots 50 fps faster than my rifle is enough to drive most of us to distraction.

Dago - I agree with you.......let's go try the same thread on small bore. I think the answers may get even more interesting. Why don't you start a similar thread when you're ready?

The 358 win. very effective, accurate and easy on the wallet! great gun mine is built on a 600 action. Would not trade it for the world!!

liled