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| One of Us |
I've picked up a medium action length, commercial M98 variant which was chambered in 243 win from the factory. I want to rechamber it to something in 358 cal and 22" barrel. The mag box has ribs built into it that line up with the case shoulder of the 243 to contain the cartridges during recoil so a 358 win is the first thought.....But.....if I modify the existing mag box or have a new one made up to delete these shoulder ribs the action and box length will allow me to squeeze in a 9x57 round, necked up to 358, and loaded to max COAL. which is basically a 225grn pointed projectile or a 250grn round nose projectile seated one calibre deep in the neck. I'm wanting the x57 case for the extra ~7grn of powder space at this stage. What sort of velocity are you guy's getting out of your hand loaded 9x57's with 200grn, 225grn and 250grn projectiles and can you share your hunting experiences with both these cartridges on Boar and Elk sized game. | ||
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I have killed Kudu, Zebra, Waterbuck, Cow Elk, and several wild boar with the 358 win. I would not do a 9x57 but would suggest a 9.3x57. There is not a lot of bullet selection for .355/.356 projectiles. I did back about 15 years ago have a 358x57 Improved Wildcat made up and was getting just over 2600 fps with 225 partitions in a 23 inch bbl using 4895. Here is a link to the reamer rental for it. I had Fred Zeglin make it up when he was doing gunsmithing fulltime. https://4drentals.com/product/...-3588-x-57-improved/ Wildcats can be fun but often about 3 years after you have completed your project and developed your loads you ask "Why did I spend all that money?" A plane old boring 8x57 loaded to modern pressures is a game thumping machine. A .323 200 grain bullet @ ~2600 fps inside of 300 yards is going to kill just about anything on the planet. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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If you decide to build a 9x57 go with a .358" barrel not the .355". Since the x57 case capacity is 1/2 way between the 358 Win and the 35 Whelan case capacities your performance will be between the 358 and the 35 Whelan. I have all 3 and there is very little difference in effectiveness on game | |||
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I built a red neck 9X57 3 years ago just because I wanted to say I had a 7X57, 8X57, and 9X57! Well, that wasn't the only reason but it did play a part. Mike is correct in that a 358 or a 9.3X57 does make more sense than a 9X57, but when do you want to be sensible when it comes to rifle lunacy? I used a 358 barrel primarily because a true 9mm bore in a rifle barrel is expensive. Also, old 9X57s had bore diameter variations that commonly ranged from .352 up to and including .358! Mine turned out extremely well. I experimented casually with other bullets, but knew all along that the 250 RN would be my bullet of choice because that was the traditional loading. I also have played with a 246 gr cast bullet and hope to bag a deer with one. The 250 gr Hornady has already accounted for a nice 8 pt. So far as velocities, I can share my loads with you if you like, but I did not push for a max velocity while working them up. | |||
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Yes I was looking at using a 358 cal barrel and chamber neck on the x57 case for the reasons you all mention. I'm leaning towards the x57 case to use all of the length possible in the action and magazine box. And it might give that little bit of extra reach on game. Mike there is a barrel maker on this side of the pond who has a 358 x 57 IMP reamer but it goes by a different name here. At this stage it's just a re-barrel and looking to keep it a feather weight rifle so not too many $$$ unless I decide to restock it in full wood mannlicher style.....Thanks. Hook, if you have some loads you can share for me to use as a guide, that would be great. | |||
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Its a push! take your pick!! much the same as a 30-30 vs. 32 Special..not much of a argument. The only thing I can think of is the availability of components is much better on the 358 Crowd, so Id opt for a 358 Win.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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.....so I take it you bought the Winchester then?  Roger | |||
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If you are talking about factory ammo then the 9mm operates at much lower pressure than the 358. Like 40K psi, so it is not a fair comparison. | |||
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I would go with 9.3X57 if limited to that case length. A 9.3X62 would be ideal IMHO. I have owned 358 Win, 9.3X57, 9.3X62 and 9.5X57 MS. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Hey yuma, Nah, different project..... | |||
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This'll be a hand loading only proposition as there's no factory ammo readily available for either where I am. My thinking was that with todays powders the x57 case can be loaded to match original balistics of the 9.3x62 which provided good performance on mid size African game by all accounts. Going with 358 cal because of the greater range of bullets to suit this velocity level. A lot of the 9.3 bullets seem to be a bit harder to suit higher velocity levels and of European manufacture which makes supply a bit unreliable here. A good friend has a 9.3x74R regulated for the 232grn Vulcan but you never know if they will be available when you go to order a box. The fall back here is Woodleigh projectiles. Naki, why do you suggest 9.3x57 over 358win. Interested in your thoughts and experience if you've used both. | |||
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Good search for bullets here. Includes BC and important manufacturer numbers, any caliber or by name. Nosler seems to stand out with regard to BC in both .366 /& .358. http://www.cbal.eu/bc.php?&lan=en Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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IMO they are equal performers - in the real world, not it some fanboy’s ballistic program. Same as comparing the .243 Win and the 6mm Rem, the 7-08 and the 7x57, the .260 Rem and the 6.5x55 Swede. No real difference. Bottom line, build what you want and the heck with what others think. It’s neither their time, their money nor their hunting experience. . | |||
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Ballistic program TX? Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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For what it is worth I have a Interarms MK X in .358 Win. 22"bbl. and a Simpson Husqvarna M98 mauser in 9.3 x 57 with a 23 5/8" barrel. My handloads reach 2400+ fps. with 250 gr. Speers in the .358 and 285 gr. Prvis in the 9.3. I've shot a lot of deer with the .358 and a couple of black bear-----knocks them silly! Haven't shot anything with the 9.3 but assume the results would be the same. Hip | |||
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Because of the way they are configured I'd doubt that there's muclost in case capacity between .35 Whelen and 9x57. Both however have more than does the .358 Winchester. Is it not possible to make up some dummies in 9x57 and .35 Whelen and see how they feed before finally deciding what works best? Is the .338 Federal not also a choice? | |||
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I have some 8x57 brass, 250grn RN woodleigh projectiles and some Hornady 35 neck size dies on their way to try some dummy loads out. I've tried a loaded 175grn 7x57 round and it'll fit into the mag box and feed. A 270w round is too long for this medium length action. I'm probably good to go with the 358x57 with minimal work. Prefer sticking to 350 bore as it's something I've yet to play with... Hip you are getting some decent velocity with those 250 grainers. | |||
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I had a true, German, 9x57 Mauser maybe thirty years ago. The slimmest of fore-ends and iron sights only it weighed maybe six to seven pounds. Full length but slim profile 23.50" barrel. A simple one stand mid barrel sight from memory. The fore-end like a matchstick. The sort of rifle made to be carried all day by the man that shot it and then shot once. So I think purpose will help the OP decide weight. | |||
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If you want a rifle with 57mm case length, I would go with a factory caliber 9.3X57 where Norma brass is available. Wild cat is fun but a real PIA and gets expensive at every step. If you want a 358, I would go for the 358Win - I still regret selling that rifle - a Winchester push feed Mod70 with 20 inch SS barrel & synthetic stock. A 4X Leupold on it & it pointed like a part of my body and dropped big red deer like a sack of spuds. Plenty of 9.3 bullets are available from Woodleigh, Hornady, Speer, Lapua, Norma, Privi, Barnes TSX, Nosler Accubone etc. Norma 232 bullets are designed for Roe deer. Not recommended for big reds, big pigs etc. About 10 years ago a guy in Oz did a test of 9.3 bullets that I contributed to. The Woodleigh, Lapua Mega and TSX were top of the table. The Norma Oryx 286gr was similar but the 232gr was not for big animals. The Privi Partizan is very cheap in the US and worked adequately. The Speer 270 gr was a surprise good performer at standard velocity. That would be a good choice in the 9.3X57 with lower velocity. You could hunt buffalo with 250gr TSX. All the tests were with 9.3X62. So a 9.3X57 in a modern action should be about 100 fps less. I have a bunch of old article and bullet tests on 9.3 cal. I have shared it with many here on AR. PM me your email and I will send you the info.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Well nice post but surly you know your underrating the 9.3x62 considerably..I can load it to walk on the heels of a .375 H&H as loaded by most and that's a 300 gr. bullet at 2500 FPS. so the 9.3x62 will push a 300 gr. Swift at almost 2400 FPS and a 286 at 2400 FPS in a good rifle. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, we have been through this many times before and let us agree to disagree. The 9.3X62 is a great cartridge and has been used extensively in Africa and Europe for over 110 years. However it is not equal to the 375 H&H. The 9.3X62, 300 gr in a 24 inch barrel will never do 2400 fps unless it is chambered with a VERY LONG throat and also over loaded to very high pressures. Yes the 9.3X62 with 286 gr bullets will do 2450 fps comfortably and that is adequate for buffalo, lion etc. HOWEVER, The 375 H&H is a better cartridge for DG, every day of the week or the 100+ year history of the two rounds.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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So, you want to shoot .358 bullets but would like a little more oomph than you can get with the .358 Winchester. Well, a .350 Rem Mag would give plenty more than the Winchester cartridge and in that rifle you'd have extra length for loading the heaviest .35 caliber bullets. . | |||
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Better bullet selection with 9.3 mm compared to 9 mm. Also good bullet selection in .358. Re-barreled a .300 Win. Mag. mauser action to .350 Rem. Mag., long action to seat bullets out further for increased case capacity. Very efficient round. Fires a 310gr bullet at 2500 fps from the 24" 1:12 barrel.  | |||
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I own and have used 9.3x57, 358 Win, and a wildcat 35-284. I would suggest a 9.3x57 over a 9x57, most because of availability of bullets. I have not fired a 9x57, so can't compare it to the others. Regarding action length, you can fit a 9.3x57 into a short action if you use Norma 232 gr. bullets; they don't overly intrude into the case body. But, generally, I would choose a 9.3x57 for a standard length action and 358 Win for a short action. 35-284 was, of course, for a short action rifle and it hits hard, but it is a wildcat proposition. Good hunting! | |||
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A few years back I had this crazy idea to make a .308X57 on an intermediate Yugo action. Turns out it's already been done. One smith told me just use a 30-06 reamer, and 8X57 gages. Then you take a set of 06 dies and grind the base to specs. Then you have a .30 Dunlap or .308X57. That was Roy Dunlap's brainchild. But... I just went with a .308. Eventually simplicity won me over. Mostly because the biggest difference would have been hassels with brass and dies for the X57 version. I doubt if there would be much gain over a 358, and your action is already made to feed a 308 case. As already mentioned, bullet selection is another issue with the 9mm. I suggest keeping it simple. Go with a 358. OR, if you're adventurous, you could plagiarize Roy Dunlaps idea. get a 35 Whelen reamer, some 35 Whelen dies (to grind down) 9X57 gages and invent the .358 Rhodes..  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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232 Gr Norma bullets - Warning. This bullet is designed for light game like Roe deer. Europeans know that the 286 gr bullets are for red deer, wild boar, Moose etc. I have read many times here on AR that the 232gr bullets were not satisfactory on larger deer in the US or in NZ etc. Barnes TSX is available in lighter weights like 250 gr "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I have used the 232 Norma bullets on whitetail deer with good effect. I would not use them on elk or moose or anything similar. 9.3x57 with the standard CIP rifling (a little over 1-14")will not stabalize Barnes 250 grain bullets - at least not in my rifles at 9.3x57 velocities. While a great fan of Barnes bullets, I do not use them in the 9.3x57. Other 250 gr. bullets work better here. | |||
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I guess we should not let the tail wag the dog but: how important/intruding are the rails on the magazine? Is the magazine box standard length despite the shoulders made for the 243W case? If the shoulders are both important to you to prevent bullet deformation and/or so intrusive that any shoulder farther forward is going to cause a problem, the cartridge should be one that uses the 308W shoulder. If the greater taper of older and longer case designs simply slip past the ribs, or you replace the magazine box, the 9.3x62 would be the first thing I'd think of. If the ribs are important but you wouldn't mind a wildcat, what about one using the 57mm case but having the 358W shape from the shoulders back? Forgive me if this is just going over the ones suggested by Wstrnhunter, but such a case might allow a few more grains of powder in the long neck. Also, were you to make it in .358 calibre, you might be able to feed it with 358W ammo if caught out of the proper stuff when far from home. | |||
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I have no issue with your taking white tail deer with 232gr bullets. Average bucks are similar to fallow deer in size and should be fine. Really big northern buck would be tricky with quartering shots on shoulder bone. There is a risk of losing the animal or a long tracking job. I am surprised that the 250gr TSX does not stabilise. Does it key hole on targets or is just poor groups? Key holing is definitely an indication of not stabilising. My doubt is about bullet length - if the 250 gr TSX is similar to a 270 gr Speer in length, AND the longer 286gr bullets are stabilised, then the shorter ones should not have any problem. I am just looking to understand what is going on here.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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The last 9x57 I owned shot 358 bullets just fine. At the suggestion of the seller, he suggested he slugged the bore. I slugged the bore and also shot .358 Rem bullets in it..Got to visiting arund the 9mm crowd and most of them also shot 358 bullets..Id still slug the bore first of all.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I initially tried the original Barnes X-bullet; 250 gr. keyholed at mid-level 9.3x57 velocities and had huge groups at top end velocities. While the TSX stabalizes better, all flavors of Barnes X-bullets thrive on velocity and/or fast rifling twists, and I've used lots of them, in a range of cartridges - they are among my favorite bullets. Since I use the 9.3x57 to shoot deer and am happy with the 232 gr. Norma Oryx for that, I haven't gone back and tried loading it with the Barnes TSX. When using any Barnes X-bullet I limit my max range on game to an impact velocity of 1.900 fps. Maybe the TTSX will open well and reliably below that but I haven't confirmed that. | |||
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Thanks Steve. Makes a lot of sense. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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If you investigate using some of the modern "high energy" powders such as Vv N550 or Alliant Rl-17, the "plain old boring 8X57" can do even better if loaded to "modern pressures".  I have since switched to Alliant Rl-17 and 200 gr Speer HotCors with similar performance at lower cost per cartridge. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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I think that nicely fits into the "just because I want one" category. I simply can't see the slight increase in powder capacity over the 358 making any difference. Heaps of blokes in Australia (where the thread started appears to be) have used the 358 and 35 Whelen side by side and no difference. I can see a small increase in case capacity making a difference in your mind (I have been a victim many times  ) if for example it means crossing a velocity threshold. 300 Wby and 300 Winchester come to mind with 200 grain bullets. One is always under 3000 f/s nd the other will always do over 3000 f/s. | |||
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And there's nothing wrong with that. I recently sold my Mannlicher Shoenauer model 1905 in 9X56 M/S.I bought it just because I wanted all of the vintage M/S rifles + once I had them all the quest was done + I sold off all but the 1903 model. I just love that rifle too much. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Oooops Naki Hunter didn't realize we have been through this before, so Ok we can agree to disagree!  Its just that having shot a few buffalo with both, I cannot tell any difference on buffalo or Hippo, but I load my .375 with 300 gr. bullets at 2450 to 2500 so that could have effected my opine! If you can get 2450 with a 286 gr bullet in your 9.3x62, that's 14 grs less than 300 grs. in both the 9.3x62 and 375 and only 50 FPS in velocity. So why can you not get real close to 2500 from a 300 gr. 9.3x62..I understand that one can get 2600 in the .375 but most do not... Just curious, not argueing, just discussing..Thats without the long box and throat btw in the 9.3x62, that part is just topping on the Ice cream..I recall this information from Pierre vander walts book whereing he so stated that we Americans have underloaded the 9.3x62 for a long time..guess Im the exception on this side of the pond. I use his book loads in most cases, sometimes a bit more. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray No problem. Discussing and having an opinion are part the fun. 20 years ago I used to work up loads in my Sako & Winchester 6.5X55 Swede. Modern pressure loads were hard to find. I had to measure case expansion. I ended up with 125 gr Nosler Partitions at 2950 fps and that was virtually a 270 Win with 130 gr bullets. I loved that caliber. The advantage was that I could shoot 140gr bullets at almost 2800 fps and 160 gr at 2600 fps. Now I use the 7mm08 and with 120gr TSX it is equal to a 270 Win! But with 150 gr bullets it is equal to a 308 Win! In the final reckoning, all these are great calibers and have a great history in performance on game. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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The 6.5 sweede is an awesome caliber, the best of the 6.5s and the oldest, so why did we need the others has been my take on the subject, same for the 7x57 and the 30-06 or 8x57 makes a pretty fair magnum as a matter of fact..just my opine as a matter of fact also!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Years ago, I had a FN commercial Mauser action that I wanted to build into something, but not replicate something I already had. So, I had it barreled in 9.3x57. Since then I've shot it very little, but I put a scope on it about two weeks ago and started working up some handloads using some Nosler 250gr ballistic tips I've stashed. I also have a 35 Whelen, acquired after the 9.3x57, which is also practically new. So, I doubt that I'll ever own a 358 Winchester. The only reason I can think of to own a 358 Winchester is to have a custom barrel made for the AR10, and use 250 gr + bullets. But there's also the 338 Federal. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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