I had some trouble with a barrel on my .300 win. I have the barrel replaced with a stainless barrel. What is the break in procedure? It is just a sporter weight barrel. Thanks
Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation...
Posts: 944 | Location: michigan | Registered: 16 December 2004
There may be no true science to this but I can get my Sauer switch barrel sporter to print consistent 0.4" groups Barrel break will do no harm wether it works or not. THe idea is to burnish the tiny machine errors on the rifling. 1. Fire one round then clean and decopper with whatever you like. 2. Repeat 10 times 3. Decopper after 2 shots and repeat three times and then decopper after final 4 shots. Total bullets 20 -
After the break in procedure I clean with Hoppes 9 powder solvent swabs no brushing at all anmd leave the barrel swabbed with solvent for storage. I only use ammonia copper solvent when grouping get cranky. You need to retain a little copper fowling to condition the barrel and retain consistency. Before I go out I rewet the bore with No9 and then a dry patch. It may all be voodoo but it works for me.
Mark
Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible.
Posts: 537 | Location: Worcestershire, England | Registered: 22 March 2005
Barrel break in is to reduce the amount of fouling the barrel will do when shot. The way the benchresters break in stainless barrels is to shoot and clean after each shot removing all fouling and ALL copper until after a shot and cleaning you get no copper. Then step up to a three shot group doing the same cleaning with ALL the copper removed until after a three shot group with cleaning you get no copper. Then step up to a five shot group with the cleaning until you get no copper when cleaning after a five shot group. Then go like hell, cause your barrel is broke in.
Most of the barrel manufactures recommend a similar process that MarkH describes. If you use that method or similar, you will have a barrel that either doesn't foul or will clean easily with three or four patches and not need a bristle brush. I have a Krieger Palma barrel that cleans that easily and I used the shoot and clean between each for 10 and then shoot 3 groups of 3 cleaning between each. After each shot/group, I cleaned to bare metal (no visible copper and no blue on the patches) before shooting the next shot/group. Like the guy said, "will it help" and the reponse is, "it wouldn't hurt".
"I ask, sir, what is the Militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them" - George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during the Virginia convention to ratify the Constitution
Posts: 1699 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 14 April 2004
John I do have two Lilja barrels. Very fine accurate barrels both capable of sub .5 MOA groups neither was subjected to barrel break-in. I don't really care what Dan recommends or any other barrel maker recommends I have never seen any empirical scientific data that supports any claims about barrel break in methods. If you have some other than the good ole boys down at the range ah … I’d be glad to look at the data but I’ve never seen anyone come up with what I’m asking for. Now some barrel makers may do this because if they don't what the hay do they know well maybe a lot more that a lot of folks would like to think they do. Now stop and think for a moment. Aren't we taking about premium barrels here? Hand Lapped barrels? Roll that around in your brain for a moment.
Jay- Next time you get a new tube screwed on give it a try. Works for me. If a guy really wants to shoot and keep fouling down then try a three groove barrel. Man those tubes break in easy and clean up just dandy. Can shoot the 100yd agg. then clean and shoot the 200yd. agg. Now that is a pretty good way to go if you can get the three groove to shoot.
The last barrel I got on a BR rifle my Viper Drop Port is a Krieger. I didn't waste my time and barrel life on this process. It's a fine shooting rifle and never has had a coppering issue. It shoots a lot better than I can.
The last barrel I got on a BR rifle my Viper Drop Port is a Krieger. I didn't waste my time and barrel life on this process. It's a fine shooting rifle and never has had a coppering issue. It shoots a lot better than I can.
1. Fire one round then clean and decopper with whatever you like. 2. Repeat 10 times 3. Decopper after 2 shots and repeat three times and then decopper after final 4 shots. Total bullets 20 -
Ditto.
I use butch's and also the outers foam if I have time to sit around. I also use JB paste sometimes.
Like others said, it certainly doesn't hurt anything.
It's similar to lapping in a MLer barrel and that is proven to aid in accuracy.
Good Luck
Reloader
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004
A scientific test done by an independent organization (Scientific Lab) using groups of rifles under controlled conditions with evidence not just a hear say version of what takes place indicating a clear difference of results using the break in method. It’s never been done to my knowledge. If it has I’m eagerly awaiting someone to deliver the goods. If you can prove me wrong I’ll gladly eat humble pie. Get to your search engines gentlemen.
I´ve never followed a breakin procedure and all my rifles shoot well. I´ve heard that excessive cleaning does more harm than good especially if you don´t use a pilot.
This is from the Lilja site: It is important to break-in a barrel though. The jacket material must be removed after every shot during the initial few rounds. If this isn't done the areas of the barrel that fouled will tend to pick up more fouling and it will build on itself. It is important to get a layer of powder fouling on top of the lands & grooves. This hard deposit will prevent the copper from stripping off the bullets. However, if the internal finish of the barrel is too rough the barrel will never be completely broken-in and fouling will always be a problem. Some barrels can't be broken-in.
This is from Kreiger Rifle Barrels: Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five cycles. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. It is interesting to shoot groups during the three and five shot cycles.
Now these guys are the experts and have scientist working for them on a multitude of different things. Maybe an E-mail to them would get some response on their scientific evidence.
You don't understand something real basic here I want Scientific data not If it is such a founded and widely accepted practice it should be easy for a BR guy like you to supply the scientific data. I'm just asking for facts since your so sold on it just get me the facts like Joe Friday used to say.
Originally posted by Hunt-ducks: Brake in is doing nothing but taking barrel life away, 200 shots could be 1/5th of your barrel life.
i'll bet some of you even brake in your shotguns.
Let's see now. 1/5 of your barrel life at 200 rounds equals 1000 rounds barrel life. Maybe you should use a different make of barrel. Anyway, it has never taken 200 rounds to break in a barrel of any quality. It also makes me think that a properly broken in barrel will last longer due to less fouling and thus less cleaning. But if you don't have the patience to break a barrel in properly then that probably makes the barrel manufactures happy. I'm happy so you should be happy, too.
If it makes you happy then follow the break-in procedures. I don't subscribe to that methodology because I have not experienced any premature fowling, reduced barrel life, or accuracy issues by not breaking it in. One probably does more damage by repeatedly cleaning it during break-in. However, I am definitely not an expert and it's just merely my opinion. Nonetheless, show me empirical evidence that there's a benefit and I may reconsider.
**************** NRA Life Benefactor Member
Posts: 3316 | Location: USA | Registered: 15 November 2001
As I said earlier what harm can it do. Whats the point in science if the procedure only uses up 20 rds out of 10,000 ( for a 308) if you use a sensible load. Shooting your rifle is shooting your rifle. An hour just mucking around on the range and chewing the fat with other guys. A high quality custom barrel may not need a break-in but a factory barrel might. Benchrest shooting is not hunting and can put the zap on your brain. If you decopper each time you clean after breakin is complete you have to recopper the barrel before you go out which is a hassel.What you want is predictability and consistent POA and this depends on the speed the barrel will foul at. Since all barrels have slightly different bore finishes and harmonics the total number of variable will get out of hand if you really want scince. Have a mooch on this website http://home.earthlink.net/~dannewberry/dannewberrysopti...development/id3.html Dan talks a lot of sense.
Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible.
Posts: 537 | Location: Worcestershire, England | Registered: 22 March 2005
Hello Pegleg, Don't believe even with scientific facts Jay Johnson is going to accept a practice of breaking in barrels. That is his right to do so certainly, but can tell you that High Power Long Range shooters using Krieger quality, expensive barrels will as a rule of thumb broken in their barrels as prescribed by Krieger or some other accepted method. (military uses a somewhat different program than prescribed by Krieger, but designed to do the same thing-polish the bore to eliminate as much fouling/copering as possible) Bench shooters do not shoot a twenty shot string plus sighters in 30 minutes or less and this is done in the wide open field where temperatures can soar well above the 100 mark. The barrels under such conditions become very, very hot and it is hard service on the gun all the way. Matter of fact this is done three times(3x20plus sighters) or perhaps as much as 80 or more rounds in a match and if your barrel is a "fouler" or "coppers up..." then you have a problem. This is a prime reason why High Power shooters, long range especially will break in their barrels. It only makes common sense as well as scientific sense that if the bore is not heavily fouled, there will be less wear and tear on the bore and less imbedding of fouling in the lands and grooves if the bore is well polished. To each his own, but when I spend over 500 bucks to have a Krieger barrel set up properly I am going to do whatever I can to prolong the pristine accuracy I expect. Krieger knows what they are talking about and that is why most of your High Master shooters use their barrels and follow their directions. Pretty much basic science I would say.
Originally posted by driver: Hello Jay Johnson, I just did and you apparently missed it.
No you just tried to side step the question. Send us a URL one with the facts from an independant lab. You know the real skinny you have all the facts share them with us.
Hello Jay Johnson, Nope, not going to waste a lot of time with you for it would not matter who or what was sent your way, it would be dismissed out of hand. It does not matter to me one whit whether you break in your barrels or don't break in your barrels and life will go on in either case. One thing is for absolutely sure, my life will not be cluttered with any Jay Johnsons of the world. Have a nice day!
It a little late to add my two cents, but... Think of the breakin like you would a new girl friend.
Can you really keep your hands off of her? I would hope not! So breakin is an opportunity to become extremely familiar with the new barrel, in depth.
On an epensive new tube I would consider it a sacralidge not to do all I could to make sure that the best possible performance and life span is the product of my efforts. Since the majority of professionals believe it works... so do I.
Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set.
Originally posted by driver: Hello Jay Johnson, Nope, not going to waste a lot of time with you for it would not matter who or what was sent your way, it would be dismissed out of hand. It does not matter to me one whit whether you break in your barrels or don't break in your barrels and life will go on in either case. One thing is for absolutely sure, my life will not be cluttered with any Jay Johnsons of the world. Have a nice day!
Well that's a nice way of saying I don't really have the answer. But I expected as much from you who thinks of himself as "The shooters shooter".
Originally posted by Jay Johnson: Roll that around in your brain for a moment.
WTF? I simply stated what Dan recommends. No rolling required for that. I gave no personal opinion about whether I think it helps or not. Maybe after I've scoped as many bores as he has I'll have a meaningful opinion. In the meantime, I'll take his word for it. If he's wrong all I'm out is a little time and elbow grease. Oh, the horror!
Posts: 920 | Location: Mukilteo, WA | Registered: 29 November 2001
chain; I recomend using the Tubbs lapping system if the barrel is a standard factory barrel. I used it with good results on a Sako 7.21 Firebird that is supposed to only have a barrel life of 1500 rounds. I shot a few 3-shot groups when I got the rifle and then did the lapping. With the same ammo, groups were noticably tighter. The best of it is that cleaning is 1/2 the job.
Elliott Steele Life Member NRA & NAHC
Posts: 14 | Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA | Registered: 23 June 2003
The controversy with barrel break in is like everything else where professionals have documented there findings and opinions and there is always someone who thinks that just isn't enough. As a matter of fact, even the majority of the professionals who give opinions won't sway some lesser educated individuals who are very strong minded. Thats ok. Just for one example of professional opinions and published findings is from Dan Lilja. Dan has a degree in engineering and has made thousands of rifle barrels, shot thousands of rounds down range, done more testing than most, kept better documented records then most, can flat ass shoot better than most and has a pro opinion on barrel break in. Can you call that scientific documented information? I can. On the other hand, the people at Hart rifle barrels say that it isn't necessary with their barrels. Most of the same can be said about their integrity, too. So I guess you can take it for what it's worth. I for one knows that it helps. I can tell by the way it shoots, the way it cleans, and by the way it lasts. Scientific?? Maybe, but I'm just a dumbass who studied civil engineering. I'm done.
I've tried it both ways and can't tell a difference. As far as saying "all the bench rest shooters" or "all the long range shooters" do xxx. That's certianly not scientific evidence. If the top finisher was chewing strawberry gum when he shot, the next week the firing line would smell like a fruit bowl. With Precision magazine publishing "scientific" articles about chewing Juicy Fruit as opposed to Double Bubble. But, its like chicken soup: it can't hurt and if it makes you feel better or feel more confident, then by all means, do it. But you needn't get testy because someone else doesn't do it.
Posts: 367 | Location: WV | Registered: 06 October 2005
A scientific test done by an independent organization (Scientific Lab) using groups of rifles under controlled conditions with evidence not just a hear say version of what takes place indicating a clear difference of results using the break in method. It’s never been done to my knowledge. If it has I’m eagerly awaiting someone to deliver the goods. If you can prove me wrong I’ll gladly eat humble pie. Get to your search engines gentlemen.
You are asking for a test that you yourself know is not possible therefore the answer to your question is maybe or maybe not. It certainly will not hurt so why not do it
It can not be scientifically proven because you have to compare a number of barrels in the experiment and anyone w/ any sense knows that every barrel produced has microscopic differences meaning no two barrels are the exact same. The data will be inaccurate.
A good way to think of Break-in is to think of lapping. Now there's something we can actually get proven data from. Say you have a barrel that is a terrible fouler and groups average. Apparrently the barrel has rough edges on the lands which are causing an excessive amount of fouling to build. Now, take the same barrel and do a thorough lapping w/ bore paste or a lapping kit. Upon firing another series of rounds you will see that the fouling is dramatically reduced in some instances and most of the time the groups will shrink as well. In theory, the lapping just removes the rough edges or tool marks inside the barrel and polishes the barrel. Lapping has been proven for years.
Now compare lapping to Break-in. The theory of break-in is to reduce fouling. Same as the theory of lapping which is proven. If intiatial break-in will remove microscopic tooling marks and smooth out edges slightly, it could certainly reduce fouling.
Some people wax their cars, some don't. Just a matter of preference.
Ya'll have a good one
Reloader
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004
just shoot the gun and clean as you regularly would.
