Can anyone suggest a powder that can provide lower pressure with the 200 grain bullet and still retain a velocity a little higher that the .35 Remington and such and be safe in my old 648 Husqvarna (based on the 96 action). It must be possible to push the bullet out at 2300fps and yet have low enough pressure to be safe. Feel free to talk me out of it and convince me that higher velocity is not need w/ the 8x57 and 200 grain bullets.
joe

You might try 56 grains H4831. roger

Take a look at Hodgdon's website and load to the lower end of their pressures. I used their data with CFE-223 in an Erfurt SR Mauser 8x57 that I wanted to keep the pressures down on. I never chrono'd the load but I am guessing ~2600 fps with the 180 Nosler BT that I used in the 19" barrel. Worked fine on impala and such in Africa in June. First time I have ever used a BT on anything larger than a coyote. I think it is a good combo for the 8x57.

Hi Joe, from "Yurrup" where the 8x57 is somewhat well known!

The Germans had superior powders to the Americans before WWI that is for sure. Thus the Americans needed a 63mm case to do with an similar weight bullet what the Germans were doing in a 57mm case AND FASTER!

So 8x57 (and 303 British FWIW) both struggle with the OLD American powders that are modern re-creations of what the USA had in WWI or even in WWII.

So essentially 8x57 wants more energy per grain as, simply, you can't otherwise get enough American powders into the case or do it with reasonable pressure.

The key to reloading 8x57 to duplicate what the Nazis were doing is DOUBLE BASED POWDERS. More gain per grain.

So discard all those American single base powders and go double base.

As to 2,300fps with your 200 grain bullet the Germans were loading to a mere 2,350 with their 196 grain bullet and nothing was breaking.

That is a potent round, some French guys I spoke to, now in French Customs, were on the receiving end of Sebian or Bosnian snipers using that round in 8x57 Dragunov clones and testify to its efficiency!

How? Well by using the full length potential of the cartridge space in the rifle magazine well.

Simply put the cannelure on Hornady's otherwise excellent 196 grain .323" spitzer is TOO FAR FORWARD. OK for using to seat to in 8mm Remington Magnum but too forward for 8x57.

So either seat the bullet out and ignore that cannelure OR use Speer's 200 grain similar offering that has no such cannelure.

Hope it helps? Here in Europe an good 8x57 (or indeed 8x57R or 8x60) powder is Vectan SP7. It looks like fine jet black shiny volcanic sand.

Hope it helps? Basically check out Wikipedia for the CORRECT OAL of the 8x57 (the same regardless of bullet weight in German Army usage...it NEVER changed) and seat your 200 grain bullet OUT to that OAL and consider DOUBLE BASE powders.

The October edition of hand loader magazine has an 8 x 57 loading article. Ramshot big game powder is one powder used.
Ramshot has good loading data on the web.

8x57mm JS Mauser
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-10" ■ Primer: FED 210 ■ Bullet Diameter .323"

Big Game 200 NOS A-BOND 45.0 2,330 50.0 2,550 54,000 3.115

The Start load of 45 grains gets your 2,300 fps done and the Max load at 2,550 is only 54K PSI so I would think your 96 Mauser action would be very happy with the start load.
dmw

quote:

Ramshot big game powder is one powder used.

DOUBLE BASED. MADE IN BELGIUM.

This will pretty much be just about right on IMHO for your Mauser. A good EUROPEAN DOUBLE BASED POWDER.

I wonder if it is SNPE VECTAN by another name?

As FURY says with just 45 grains (work up and observe safe loading practices) you've got your 2,300fps.

This load is right at 60K PSI.

Perfectly safe in a post 1930s M98 action.

5K less than 270 Win or 6mm Rem SAAMI spec

Back off 10% & sneak up on 2500 FPS. That should be about 45K, safe for a 96 action.

Used on many Husqvarna 146/m96.

http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunit...oading-Data/8x57-JS/

I went to the range yesterday and fired some 200 grain Sierras w/ 41 grains of 4064 in my old Husky 648 (M96 action). The cases showed no drastic pressure signs except that the primers were a little flat. I might come down 1/2 grain. It also was very accurate shooting MOA w/ no problem. I finally found some CFE 223 powder. I'm going to give that a try as pressures for velocity seem fairly low.
joe

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Hi Joe, from "Yurrup" where the 8x57 is somewhat well known!
The Germans had superior powders to the Americans before WWI that is for sure .

This is a true statement, but do any of you know WHY? (I believe I do, and will explain after a few answers and it isn't double based powders either.)

quote:

Originally posted by Joe R. Lock:
I went to the range yesterday and fired some 200 grain Sierras w/ 41 grains of 4064 in my old Husky 648 (M96 action). The cases showed no drastic pressure signs except that the primers were a little flat. I might come down 1/2 grain. It also was very accurate shooting MOA w/ no problem. I finally found some CFE 223 powder. I'm going to give that a try as pressures for velocity seem fairly low.
joe

According to "Quickload" using standar CIP cartridge OAL W/Sierra 200gr BTHP, your 41gr load of IMR 4064 is very mild @ an estimated 35K psi & 2200 fps.

You should be able to go up to 45gr & stay under 45k psi @ 2400 fps.

Al this is assuming a 24" barrel & 3.228" COAL.

A compressed load of H4831 will get you to 2400 fps @ about 42K psi W/the same parameters.

Thanks wilcatjunkie, I will try going up a little w/ the 4064. I guess my 41 grains of 4064 really showed no pressure signs after all. I am just a little paranoid about going too high. You suggested H4831. I have lots of IMR4831, how would that work?
joe

quote:

Originally posted by Pa.Frank:

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Hi Joe, from "Yurrup" where the 8x57 is somewhat well known!
The Germans had superior powders to the Americans before WWI that is for sure .

This is a true statement, but do any of you know WHY? (I believe I do, and will explain after a few answers and it isn't double based powders either.)

The German powders produce less flash.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe R. Lock:
Thanks wilcatjunkie, I will try going up a little w/ the 4064. I guess my 41 grains of 4064 really showed no pressure signs after all. I am just a little paranoid about going too high. You suggested H4831. I have lots of IMR4831, how would that work?
joe

You should not be able to get to a dangerous pressure level W/an 8X57 case full of H4831 behind the 200gr Sierra bullet..

Even @ 107% load density (compressed load) of 54.5gr of H4831 W/the 200gr .323 Sierra Matchking, Quickload predicts just 42481 psi CP W/2410 fps Mv.

If you use a drop tube & pour the powder into the funnel so it swirls as it goes down the tube you can easily get a 107% compressed load to allow you to seat the bullet W/little difficulty.

I personally seek out compressed loads as they tend to be very consistant in MV & Standard Deviation. I usually get very good accuracy from compressed loads.

If you can get me the COAL of your loaded cartridges, the water capacity of a fired case & your barrel length, I can get you a more precise prediction.

If you can get a chronograph to measure Mv, that will be a better indication of the real chamber pressure W/the loads rather than the predicted powder volume.

Since either load is well under 45K predicted CP, I think you will be in safe ranges for the 96 action.

As far as flattened primers? Some brands, like CCI, seem to be softer than others. It could also be an indication of excess headspace as the primer can be driven back against the bolt face a milsecond or 2 before the case is pushed back, thus flattening the primer even if CP is not high.

Have you checked the headspace?

As for IMR 4064? You should be able to get 2550 fps W/O exceeding 50K CP.

A chronograph is invaluable for load developement as it can give you a good indication of CP.

Even published data can't be taken for gospel in a particular gun. High Mv loads that exceed published data are usually an idication of high CP even if the published data says otherwise.

Quickload predictions are the same.

My 2730 fps Mv 200gr Partition 8X57 loads reached that Mv @ 2 gr less powder charge than predicted so I stopped there.

If you can beg borrow or steal a chronograph & work up to 2500 fps W/IMR 4064 I think you would be perfectly safe in a 96 Mauser.

Also: Have you established the ideal COAL for your barrel chamber throat?

It's relatively easy if you have a ramrod W/a flat tip, a dial caliper & a collar that you can apply to the ramrod W/set screws.

Most any reloading manual will give you good load data. In most of mine 2300 fps are starting loads with most powders and 200 gr bullets.
You don't need a lot of fancy tools to figure out the max COAL. Take a fired case It will probably be a snug slip fit of the bullet in the case neck. If not use your resizing die and size just a 1/16 inch of the neck.
Insert a bullet into the case neck with as little bullet in the case as you can. Now carefully insert this round into the chamber and close the bolt. Or if in a controled round rifle feed it from the mag. Now carefully remove the round. As you closed the bolt the bullet comes up against the rifling. This pushes the bullet into the case.
You now have that bullet at the longest AOL that rifle can use. Now if your lucky that round will be shorter than the magazine box.
Now to seat that bullet so it's a certain amount away from the rifling, say .010 inch. Take the bullet seating stem out of your seating die. measrue the threads pitch. Mine is threaded 18 threads to the inch. That means that 1 turn of the stem moves it .055 inch. 1/2 turn is .027, 1/4 is .013. 1/8 is .006. Your may be different.
So to get a COAL of .010 off the rifling put this test round in your press. Screw in your seating die with the seating stem backed way out. Lift the round up into the die. Screw the seating stem in till it just contacts the bullet. Lower the round. turn in the seating stem to get the measurement you want. Mine I turned it in about halfway between 1/8 and 1/4 turn. For about .010 off the rifling.
Leo