The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 338WM vs 375Ruger -- Coming full circleGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Some things in life are ironic. Hunting laws can create funny situations. Because of Tanzanian hunting laws my wife now owns a 375Ruger. It has the diameter to qualify for a buffalo license, when we finally ferry it over. But what kind of bullet will she want for a general, all purpose load? In another thread the 200 grain GSC HV looks excellent at 3000fps. Recoil will be manageable but right up there for Lady Tanzan. * At 3000 fps there is only a 6.5" drop at 300 yards when sighted in at 2" high for 100 yards. That will handle it all in Africa. * Reports from GSC indicate that the little lightweight bullet produces pass-throughs on cape buffalo. 5 out of 6 for one professional hunter, what's not to like? So for comparison, I looked at our current "medium" rifle, a 338 WinMag with 225grain TTSX at 2830fps with a BC of .514. Both it and the 375 would have a load with a muzzle energy of 4000 ftlbs. * The 338, too drops 6.5" at 300 yards when sighted in 2" high at 100. However, at 400 yards, the 338 gains 1.5" over the 375 load because of a higher BC. For Africa, that distance is pretty much negligible. My wife doesn't want to shoot such a range. I mentioned irony in the intro above. * At 300 yards the 338 load will have 650 ftlbs of energy advantage over the 375 load. * In 10mph wind drift, the 338 load will have a 4" less drift at 300 yards. * In overall energy, both loads start out the same at 4000ftlbs, but the 338 load will only drop down to 2000 ftlbs at a whopping 525 yards, while the 375 with the light 200 grainer drops down to that level at 320 yards. * In more traditional thinking about penetration, the 338 has a sectional density of .28 while the 375 is .20. * The 375, of course, wins out on overall diameter by 10%, over 20% if counting by frontal area. So what does all of this mean? Frankly, for most plains game hunting there won't be a hill of beans difference between the two. However, which one would I rather shoot at a buffalo, assuming that our 416 wasn't around? Both are well over 3000 ftlbs on energy out to 100 yards. (The 338 stays above 3000 ftlbs all the way to 200 yards. Not too shabby, but I wouldn't shoot a buffalo at 200 yards with a 338. Basically, the choice would come down to a .28 sectional density in the 338, potentially extrapolating into better penetration, vs the extra diameter of the 375, with possibly less penetration with the .20 SD. Tough call, huh? = = = Now the above considerations were made with a limited muzzle energy of 4000 ftlbs, designed around a 110-lb shooter. I'm not suggesting that a better buffalo load wouldn't favor the 375. For example, GSC has a 300 grain HV bullet that could be shot at 2600fps. That starts out at 4500ftlbs and would slam into the buffalo with over 4000 ftlbs almost all the way to 100 yards. Pretty impressive. More diameter, higher SD (.30), and a comparable BC (.475) to the TTSX 338 BC (.51). But "all-around" brings us back full-circle: the 338 is impressive and I wouldn't pass on a buffalo. The 375 200grain would work, too. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | ||
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Tanz, The generic 33 caliber (.330, .333, and .338) bolt action cartridges have a long standing reputation for close range and long range performance against thin skinned/boned and thick skinned/boned game animals. Unfortunately the Brits severely limited their use in Africa after instituting the .375 caliber minimum for use against dangerous game. It will be difficult to cross match a .280 SD/.514 BC .338 caliber bullet in .375 caliber while maintaining a comfortable recoil level for the petite 110# Mrs. Tanz unless you reduce the MV. Regardless of your decision, lighter weight/higher MV or heavier weight/lower MV, you will have to compromise the long range capability of the .375 cartridge to accomodate her physical requirements. Unfortunately you'll need to load both variations to have Mrs. Tanz identify which bullet weight/MV combination works best for her. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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If Southern buffalo are on the hunting menu – because of African laws in the vast majority of courtiers – the .375 caliber or larger is required. The 375 Ruger would make a fine one gun for everything African cartridge. With this caliber there is no need of two rifles on an African safari. If loading for myself, I’d take three loads – one optimized for plainsgame and two optimized for buffalo, hippo, and/or elephant. For plainsgame, it would be the 250 gr Barnes TTSX (B.C.=0.424) stoked to ~3000 fps using a 26” barrel; and for the thick-skinned critters, it would be 300 gr Barnes TSX, Speer TBBC, NF-SS, GSC-HV, or Swift AF and a 300 gr FN solid such as those provided by CEB, NF, or GSC. I’d stoke the 300 grs bullets to ~2750 fps. I’d lean toward Barnes bullets, because they’re well constructed, accurate, and relatively cheap. For a woman – who desired less kick and gun weight – I’d use a 24” barrel fitted with a muzzle break. I’d make certain the gun fit nicely to her shorter arms, and I’d have her wear a nice soft shoulder pad. There are many good inexpensive shoulder pads on the market. I’d have her use the same bullets with the 250 TTSX stoked to ~2900 fps and the 300 bullets stoked to ~2650 fps. Couple this with target practice on making the perfect shot, IMO she’d enjoy her hunt and collect her animals with low likelihood of wounded and/or lost game. I’ve read GS’s comments regarding his light-for-caliber bullets, but I’m not a big believer on using light bullets on thick skinned/heavy boned animals like buffalo. IMO, light bullets do not fare well when they hit big shoulder bones, which is likely on buffalo. Also, the heavier bullets are better for negotiated twigs, brush, leaves, etc., which often present themselves between the shooter and African game animals. | |||
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Why not even the bullet weights up and compare it with GSC .338win 200HV @ 3000mv? Gerard can tell you how effective that .33cal HV bullet has proven to be in Africa. A person could also split the diff. between .375 and .338... and run a .358norma/200HV...sounds delicious!.  | |||
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Given the choice for cape buffalo, that choice would be dictated by the laws that govern, should one decide that these laws make any sense. The 200gr HV is indeed the better choice for a 338WinMag and we have the example of a PH who was required to shoot out a herd of cape buff on a section of land due to anthrax. He had two Sako rifles that could do the job, a 375H&H and 338WinMag. It was clear that 52 shots with the 375 would not be pleasant. I advised him to use the 338 and the 200gr HV. He was going to work mostly from a vehicle so he went that route. A couple of weeks later he called to say that it took 52 shots and that he did not recover a single bullet. Talking about laws that do not make sense. In South Africa there is a law called National Norms and Standards for Hunting. No one that I know takes any notice of this law, it seems that it was composed by an amateur and, to the powers that be, it seemed like a good idea at the time. This piece of paper allows me to hunt elephant with my 4" 45ACP handgun loaded with 300gr cast lead bullets, but makes it illegal to use my 375H&H loaded with 270gr FN bullets. It is perfectly legal to hunt kudu with a 158gr bullet and a 38spl snubby revolver but it would be illegal to use a 7mmRM loaded with 130gr HV or a 140gr Nosler Partition, and so on. Several of us submitted recommendations when the law was still in that stage and not a single recommendation that makes any sense, was adopted. | |||
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@ Gerard: just curious regarding your bullet recommendation for the 375 Ruger? | |||
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If you want a 'real comparison ... use the 300 grain Woodleigh in the .338 vs the 300 grain in the Ruger. I think the only difference is the bore diameter. I bet you could not tell the difference in use in the field. | |||
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Yes, I am still learning and would like to hear the rationale from different aspects on the 375. I am starting to think that as a primary consideration Gerard prefers keeping the velocity over 2700fps impact velocity. Otherwise, on the 338 I would have expected the 225grain GSCHV to be recommended. The 225gn .338" can be sent out at 2800-2850fps, it has a BC just over .500, the .71" nose easily fits within a 3.4" magazine, and its stability is 1.6 in a 10" twist (the typical 338 twist). But its typical impact velocity will drop down to 2600, which might mean that it won't get extra penetration from shedding the petals. I am thinking that 52 pass-throughs in 52 dead buffalo would mean flat cylinder exits. By the way, the last item illustrates how a decent calibre with a decent bullet works with proper shot placement. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I've only used a 300 gn cup-n-core in the old Barnes, 30 years ago. Yes, it flattened warthogs. HOwever, I've seen Woodleighs turn inside out, so I prefer mono-metals these days. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Seems to me that if 300 to 400 yards is as close as you can get to an animal, maybe you should be thinking about getting another PH. | |||
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You will notice that this was talking about 2% of potential shots. It's called an animal of opportunity, where the animal has seen you, maybe across a wide open area, and the choice is either to ignore the animal or take a shot from a good rest. "Bump and track" is always possible for a worthy animal, but not for every or any animal. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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jaegerfrank, The potential target dictates the choice. When it is going to be a mixture of plainsgame and cape buffalo, we use the 200gr HV in .375" but, as soon as elephant comes into the picture, we go for the 265gr HV or the 270gr FN. You never know when a frontal brain shot will be required or perhaps a straight going away. 416Tanzan, Keeping the impact speed up is one of the considerations and another is the case volume. The 225gr 338 HV is as long as a conventional 270gr bullet, should it exist. The longer bullet requires a slower powder and more of it, so case volume becomes a consideration in the average 338. We have used both bullets in a 340 Weatherby and eventually the reloader went with the 200gr HV exclusively. 340 Weatherby Older but still valid. | |||
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Thank you! | |||
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Woodleigh offers the .338 300 grain in both round nose soft point and a solid. If you prefer something tougher than a soft, the solid should do the trick. The Barnes Originals were soft in design, the Woodleigh soft is a 'harder' bullet. But at about 2400fps, I think you would have a hard time tearing either apart. | |||
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Well, I've got a box and a half of Woodleigh 300gn-.338" lying around. But I really like bullets at 2800-2850fps and .500BC. And Gerard has me rethinking 3050fps with a little lower BC .417. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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416Tanzan Here are a few ideas for your lady. Hope this helps. Cheers R Follow link... http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr...=UTF8&qid=1414436637 | |||
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I used to have what I called my Prince of Wales Is. Load for my 338 Win Mags. . 200 gr X bullet at 2900 fps. That was before I was moly tumbling my bullets and I couldn't get anymore velocity than that. But it was a good deer and black bear.load. I didn't on purpose go looking for brown bear with that load but I wasn't too worried if I bumped into one when that.load was in the rifle. IMO either cart is great but it depends what you will be doing with it. For general purpose hunting Either the 225 gr TTSX, 338 or 250 gr TTSX 375 or similar bullets. Some guys will predominantly have close range shots, some long range shots. For me shots could be 20' or 600+ yards. So I'm looking for an all around bullet and am getting to thinking the heavy monos are the way for me to go. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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.375 diameter is pretty much an arbitrary Gov't restriction isn't it? With the higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient of the .338 it is a great killer in my experience. Have heard many stories of killing buffalo with it. Heck wasn't the 30-06 with solids a good buffalo killer back in the day? I would think with good shooting and a scope a 200 yard shot would be no problem. But since you need a .375 heck that works good all day long (or a hundred years). I've heard good things about the ruger on this forum. Since I have H+H's no need for one, and ammo is relatively cheap and easy to get. For a plains game rifle that can take care of a big nasty if necessary a .338 would be hard to beat. Never recovered a bullet even on Bull moose and kills quick. If I had to pay to bring one to Africa I would stay with the .375 caliber as it could be used as a backup gun or one gun for everything. If I lived there, heck I'd have one. Can't go wrong either way. I use mainly 225 TSX and they work great. White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Well, if I were going to shoot a buffalo with my 338 Win Mag, I would be using a 300gn Woodleigh at 2400fps. I am sure it would give adequate penetration, and for buff hunting I would probably never shoot beyond 150 yards, so sighted in 1" high at 100 yoards, you can aim dead on at any distance out to 150 yards. It would not be as quickly effective as a 600gn Woodleigh from my 505 Gibbs, but it would still do the job. It's a pitty the 338 isn't legal for dangerous game in a lot of(any?) African countries because I think it wouldn't be a bad choice. | |||
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hey 338-- I agree, the 338WM wouldn't be a bad choice wherever legal. In several countries it is or has been legal. However, as mentioned, I would prefer lighter and faster for a bullet. The Woodleigh can over expand, though that is less likely if kept down at 2400fps. Still, the 225TTSX, 200GSC, and CEB's can't overexpand, penetrate very well, and provide flexibility for plains game hunting. Win win. On the hand hand, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt buffalo with a .338" 300gn Woodleigh, I would just keep it to 2400fps and might pass on a 3/4 away shot, though it should take that, too, anyway. Win win win. As everyone notes, the most important item is to carefully call and place that first shot. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 338WM vs 375Ruger -- Coming full circle
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