Anyone got any idea where to obtain the .318" diameter I bullet?

I know Sellier & Bellot loads 8x57I ammo so they'll probably have the bullets. Woodleigh also has - who else?

- Lars/Finland

IN Europe?

I would check the listings of Privi Partisan and Norma to see if they can help.

The German company RWS also used to load the "I" size bullet.

Good luck!

Thanks - already checked.
RWS loads the 8x57JR (i.e. IR) so they have the TMR bullet available.
Also, RWS makes the 8x60S ammo so cases could possibly be obtained therefrom.

- Lars/Finland

Woodleigh makes a 200 grain .318 bullet if that helps

look here

Hawk Bullets

I bought some Hawk some years ago in 280 Ross and was disappointed with their accuracy.

By your location in Finland I'm speculating that this may be for use in an FN-Sako chambered for 8x60? I've run into those before.

If your chamber neck diameter is large enough in to accept them (and nearly all are), then you might be surprised that the "S" bore bullets of .322-323" diameter (of conventional cup-and-core construction) perform just fine thorugh a "J" bore.

I know that it would seem that a bullet .005" over groove diameter would jump pressures and provide poor accuracy, but in practice a conventional jacketed bullet will swage down a few 1/1000ths to fit the bore without significantly increasing pressures. Similarly, the oversized bullet will often exhibit accuracy comparable to the "proper" diameter bullet.

I would advise using a common-sense caution if substituting S's for J's by reducing the powder charge initially to something approximately equivalent to a "starting load", however, I suspect that pressure signs will allow you to increase to a more normal "full power" load without stress.

The foregoing applies ONLY to bullets of conventional construction. Monometal bullets (Barnes, etc.) and bullets with steel jackets or with construction other than a guilding metal jacket surrounding a lead core may act differently and are not recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
By your location in Finland I'm speculating that this may be for use in an FN-Sako chambered for 8x60?

Yupp.

quote:

If your chamber neck diameter is large enough in to accept them (and nearly all are), then you might be surprised that the "S" bore bullets of .322-323" diameter (of conventional cup-and-core construction) perform just fine thorugh a "J" bore.

Nope - not the least bit surprised.
In fact, I suspected this and decided that before purchase I will have the barrel slugged to confirm.
Jack Lott wrote an article about this particular topic (which I have since been unable to re-discover) and maintained that the groove diameter of the I barrels usually is large enough to accommodate a .323" bullet to be safely fired.
However, I most certainly agree with the point you make viz. the monometals. They have also caused some problems in vintage doubles from what I've read.

quote:

Similarly, the oversized bullet will often exhibit accuracy comparable to the "proper" diameter bullet.

This would have been my next question.

quote:

I would advise using a common-sense caution if substituting S's for J's by reducing the powder charge initially to something approximately equivalent to a "starting load", however, I suspect that pressure signs will allow you to increase to a more normal "full power" load without stress.

My thought exactly.

Thank you!

- Lars/Finland

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
http://www.staffansvapen.se/ha...leigh/318/index.html

Tackar o. bockar!

- Lars/Finland

Lars,

If you haven't discovered the Sako Collector's Club website/forum, by all means visit it at http://sakocollectors.lefora.com/

There is a wealth of information there posted by enthusiasts of your native Finnish rifle make.

.323 bullets go down a .318 bore just fine. The important part is the neck portion of the chamber. It needs to be chambered for an S cartidge. Many .318 model 88 Commission rifles were simply rechambered for S cartridges during WWII.

I can't imagine any 8mm commercial factory rifle made in the last 100 years that did not have an S chamber. I believe Sako simply choose a .318 bore, just like Brno rifles using a .321

quote:

.323 bullets go down a .318 bore just fine.

With all due respects sir.....that won't be the case in any rifle I'm shooting.....I've read this statement before and as far as I'm concerned it's a dangerous thing to say!

Weatherby rifles chambered for the .270 WBY have been known to blow when the 7mm WBY was fired in it and this isn't much different that the .005 you're describing!

Further the chief ballistician for Hornady labs has said the largest bullet he would shoot in any rifle was .001 oversize.

Finn Aagard used the larger 8mm ammo (8x60S) in a early mauser (small Bore) for quite some years in Kenya until replacement ammo was manufactured again. He describes this in an old article 'Kenya Guns and Days' in American Rifleman.

Vapodog. I know you have a great amount of knowledge and I respect you for it. No one is asking you to put anything down your rifles and you don't have to. I'd just ask that you look outside the North American environment and maybe accept that other people have different experiences and knowledge.

The same topic comes up often with the .404 Jeff as well. People shoot .423 bullets for years before finding out they have a .418 bore (not really advisable with modern monomental solids).

The bottom line is that no one knows why Sako chose a .318 bore in the 1950s. The important thing is the chamber neck. If you can verify that the neck and throat are large enough for modern 8x60S ammunition, the bullet will have no problem going down the bore. It might even be more accurate

Keep in mind that the whole J vs. S debate is a German issue. I have an Brno 8x60 made in Czechoslovakia 1938. The barrel is simply stamped 8x60, not 8x60J or 8x60S. The bore is .321. It safely shoots modern RWS 8x60S ammo.

The bores of the German 88 Commission rifles that used the .318 bullets were actually .320 to .321 and larger. The .321 bullets made by Speer and Hornady will work in such rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
The bores of the German 88 Commission rifles that used the .318 bullets were actually .320 to .321 and larger. The .321 bullets made by Speer and Hornady will work in such rifles.

I've read this before and believe it's a lot closer to the truth than to say one is shooting .323 bullets in a .318 bore.

I've also read that the 8 X 57 as loaded by American MFRs is loaded quite lower in pressure to allow the ammo to pass through the smaller bores without mishap.

I must also say that I've never heard of a mishap using any of the 8 X 57 factory ammo.....something must be going right.

That said.....I'm sticking with the statements by Roy Weatherby and the head ballistician at Hornady when they say that a .007 oversize bullet blew up a weatherby (Germen Mauser) rifle and that .001 is as much as one should be loading in excess of nominal diameter.

One does get away with a lot of sins when dealing with ammo loaded to 45,000 PSI

There is a lot of old myth and mis-information around the German 88 Commission rifles.

There was an anti-Semitic smear campaign against Ludwig-Lowe that ended with a law suit for slander. The slandering party claimed Lowe was selling defective rifles to the German government. There were some blow ups but I think they were more related to bad barrels since the design does not have a chamber reinforce.

There is a collector of these rifles named MAG that has the data for over 100 of these rifle bores that he has measured. For the most part they measure .320 to .321.
There are a few that are much smaller but they have Czech replacement barrels.
MAG has an old thread at gun boards that discusses his findings on the old rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
The bores of the German 88 Commission rifles that used the .318 bullets were actually .320 to .321 and larger. The .321 bullets made by Speer and Hornady will work in such rifles.

I've read this before and believe it's a lot closer to the truth than to say one is shooting .323 bullets in a .318 bore.

I've also read that the 8 X 57 as loaded by American MFRs is loaded quite lower in pressure to allow the ammo to pass through the smaller bores without mishap.

I must also say that I've never heard of a mishap using any of the 8 X 57 factory ammo.....something must be going right.

That said.....I'm sticking with the statements by Roy Weatherby and the head ballistician at Hornady when they say that a .007 oversize bullet blew up a weatherby (Germen Mauser) rifle and that .001 is as much as one should be loading in excess of nominal diameter.

One does get away with a lot of sins when dealing with ammo loaded to 45,000 PSI

I'll bet that .007 oversize was a .284 bullet in a .277 bore.

quote:

I'll bet that .007 oversize was a .284 bullet in a .277 bore.

As I stated earlier.....it was a 7mm WBY mag round fired in a 270 WBY mag rifle.....it took it apart!

A couple of months ago we had an interesting happening at our range. A .222 remington got fired in a .204 Ruger, no damage. The case showed signs of pressure and the bolt was a little tight. If that had been a larger case the out come wouldn't have been pleasent. The small case dia. saved the day.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I'll bet that .007 oversize was a .284 bullet in a .277 bore.

As I stated earlier.....it was a 7mm WBY mag round fired in a 270 WBY mag rifle.....it took it apart!

The cause of the excess pressure in the case in point would have much more likely been the "squeezing" of the bullet in the case neck in the very tight .270WBY chamber. The jump in pressure due to an oversized case neck which places great resistance on the initial movement of the bullet would be much greater than the additional pressure needed to swage the .007" oversized bullet down to bore size.

As has been stated several times in this thread, the most imortant factor is that the chamber neck diameter is large enough to accept the oversized bullet/case neck without resistance. If this is the situation, then the impact of the .005" undersized bore is de minimus.