I'm becoming more interested in longer range target shooting and was considering a .308 for the task. Last winter I bought a new Remington 700 SPS in .223 and I'm very happy with it. This morning I was shooting milk jugs at 300 yards and while I had no problem hitting them I noticed the bullet drop was at least 6" from that range. I'm looking for something that will reach out to 300 yards and beyond, so I'm wondering if the .308 is a practical choice? What type of range can I expect out of a .308 with a typical factory twist rate and handloads?

I've always been a long time fan of the Remington 700 action. I've heard lots of good things about Savages giving excellent performance for less money but I know very little about them. I would like a heavy barrel synthetic stock model and I'm trying to keep the cost down so I can leave enough room to put a decent scope on it. What is the typical price range on a Savage, and what model numbers should I be looking at?

Savage makes an excellent "long range" gun for accuracy. Personally I'm no fan of the .308 for a target round.....I'd far rather have a 25-06 or something like a 6.5-284....either of these will reach out a very long ways!

Actually a good old 260 Rem, while equal the 25/06 with 100 grain Slugs.. and the 6.5 x 284 is a pain and more expensive than the 260 with brass costs etc...

To form 260s, just neck up plentiful 243 or down 7/08 or 308....If you can't find 260 headstamped brass...

A 260 AI will equal a 6.5 x 284 all day long....especially on a long action....while using slightly less powder.. but I don't consider that a deal maker or breaker...

Although the .308 is to me a poorly designed cartridge, Rifles built for them have proven to be accurate. Great quality cases are plentiful at good pricing, and Reasonably priced bullets ,at this moment, still can be purchased.

After being a long time advocate of the Savage produced rifles I can no longer recommend that anyone purchse one and expect working quality. It really seems a gamble. roger

rowdyredneck

The .308 WIN. has been a long range round for some time now, in M1A1, and being used for a 1000 yd. matchs. There is a lot of brass and bullets, surplus powder, as for the savage I have not bought one in 16 years so I can say, good or bad.

6.5 SWEDE

Some of the reasons I was considering the .308 are easily availible brass and bullet selection as well as it being a common choice for a sniper rifle, meaning it must be accurate. I've never actually shot one but based on research it can't kick that bad either, so those are the reasons I was focusing on that particular load.

I have two Remington 700's which have proven to be accurate and reliable but this time I was looking at Savage for a few reasons. First of all is the cost issue. From what I understand they are cheaper and I've heard mostly good things about them, but I have no personal experience with the brand. Another thing I like is the relative ease of changing barrels on the Savage versus the Remington.

While the .308 is a fine long range round for other reasons, flat trajectory is not really one of them. The .223 with a 69gr bullet, actually drops about 2" less at 300 yards than the .308 with 175gr bullet if both are zeroed at 100 yards. The .308 is inherently accurate, not finicky in load development, and recoil isn't too bad, but don't expect a significantly flatter trajectory than your .223.

John

Basically I'm looking for something comfortable enough to shoot all day without brusing my shoulder and easy enough to find bullets and cases for. It also needs to have reasonable accuracy out past 300 yards. I don't plan on hunting with it and I'm not looking to spend a fortune on a custom match rifle. I just want something for some casual fun on the weekends. Would the .25-06 make a better choice? From what I've read its basically a necked down .30-06, so how does the accuracy compare? Years ago I had a .243 but I never tested long range with it. I'm open to any other suggestions.

rrn, punch up savage arms,go to centerfire check out savages model ..12fv with the acc- trigger system, thats your baby! 308 all the way,i own a 243,25-06 30-06,their all great rounds, not all savages though. but my 308 is the bee''s knee's,you can thank me later! regards jjmp.

Rowdy,
one important aspect that is needed for longe range shooting and has to be taken into consideration is B.C. although 308 and 243 have a reasonable B.C. they do not compare with 6.5mm and 7mm bullets. Bullet drop and wind drift can be calculated easily but the less of it you have the less chance of error you will have. All the cartridges you have mentioned will easily shoot out to 300yds with the right equipment, pushing beyond that brings into play Ballistic Coefficient.I had a Savage 112 BVSS in 25-06 that would shoot cloverleaf at 100yds but bullet selection was limited for long range.If your just punching holes in paper, and remember the old saying its horses for courses,buying a dedicated paper puncher does not mean it will convert to a longe range hunting rifle, and vice versa!
You have not told us if you reload! If you do then your cartridge choice has just got a whole lot bigger.
Criteria:
1. must be reasonably accurate beyond 300yds
2. low recoil
3. readily available cases
4. not finnicky to reload
5. must be available in Savage rifle

6mm(243) 6.5mm 7mm will do what you require and are readily available,6mm with Lapua scenar or a matchking I think would be hard to beat and the others loaded with similar bullets would be also be equal to the task, cheapest option would have to be the 6mm.
The 260 rem loaded with Lapua Scenar would have to be the ultimate without going into specialist calibers like the 6.5x284 or any of the AI's.The 260 like the 6.5x284 is relatively new on the market and cases are not always readily available, and are likely to be costly compared with the o'l timers like the 243 & 308.
A comparison from Sierra ballistics gives you an indication how important B.C.is!
308 lapua scenar 167gn @ 2700fps = 93.79" drop
243 lapua scenar 105gn @ 3000fps = 69.04" drop

good luck choosing!

regards
griff

quote:

After being a long time advocate of the Savage produced rifles I can no longer recommend that anyone purchse one and expect working quality. It really seems a gamble.

Roger,

Are you and those Stevens not getting along now???

Problems? what kind of??

You may want to take a look at the tikka varmit in 308,I would love to have one in 260 rem but they are not avaiable here in the states.
I love shooting both,our range just goes to 300 yds so I don't get to shoot farther.I have had the 308 tikka awhile and it shoots so many different powders and bullets so good I still haven't decided what bullet and load to set it up for.Have several savages but not in 308 and they shoot very well also.

quote:

Originally posted by rowdyredneck:
I'm becoming more interested in longer range target shooting and was considering a .308 for the task. Last winter I bought a new Remington 700 SPS in .223 and I'm very happy with it. This morning I was shooting milk jugs at 300 yards and while I had no problem hitting them I noticed the bullet drop was at least 6" from that range. I'm looking for something that will reach out to 300 yards and beyond, so I'm wondering if the .308 is a practical choice? What type of range can I expect out of a .308 with a typical factory twist rate and handloads?

I've always been a long time fan of the Remington 700 action. I've heard lots of good things about Savages giving excellent performance for less money but I know very little about them. I would like a heavy barrel synthetic stock model and I'm trying to keep the cost down so I can leave enough room to put a decent scope on it. What is the typical price range on a Savage, and what model numbers should I be looking at?

The "range you can expect" depends on the load you use, and the way you zero your rifle. I used to zero my .270 using 130-grain bullets loaded to 3000 FPS MV to hit +4" @ 100 yards. It was still +4" @ 200, and -3" @ 300. This was a very practical zero for hunting in the mountains of New Mexico, since you could get shots from right under your nose to across the canyon on the side of the next mountain! This zero took care of that problem. You could do the same with a 150-grain load in a .308, but it might be -4 or-5 @ 300. The .270 is a little flatter shooting than the .308, but a good 7mm Rem. Mag. with 140-grain bullets beats both of these calibers!

IMO, the BULLET you choose, how you load it, and the way you zero in your rifle have much more influence on what happens at extended ranges than what cartridge you choose. If you buy a .30-.378 Weatherby Magnum, then zero it in dead on at 100 yards, you are not using its potential!

quote:

Originally posted by Bartsche:
... the .308 is to me a poorly designed cartridge ...

I've seen Roger post thoughts similar to that before and not real sure how it is possible for him to be so completely confused!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Hondo64d:
While the .308 is a fine long range round for other reasons, flat trajectory is not really one of them. The .223 with a 69gr bullet, actually drops about 2" less at 300 yards than the .308 with 175gr bullet if both are zeroed at 100 yards. The .308 is inherently accurate, not finicky in load development, and recoil isn't too bad, but don't expect a significantly flatter trajectory than your .223.

Excellent post.
-----

Hey Rowdy, the problems you get out past 300yds can be very difficult to deal with - especially when using Low Ballistic Coefficient(BC) Bullets, found in the Weenie Calibers. The Heaviest weight Bullets in those smaller Calibers have difficulty matching the BC(reality not computed) of the larger diameter calibers, like the 30cal and 0.338" Bullets.

If you look in the back of your Speer Manual(or Sierra) and do a few comparisons for Wind Drift and Drop Rate, you will quickly understand most of the smaller calibers are at a serious disadvantage. And if you go to some of the Higher weights in the smaller calibers, then you need "special twist" barrels to stabilize those very long-for-caliber Bullets.

Sooooo, only you can decide what will meet your specific Requirements and Recoil tollerance level. Everything that has been mentioned by all the posters will work, but only a few have the potential to do everything you want - in "your" proper Balance.

Whatever rifle you get, the HEAVIER the better. If you are determined to stay with a Savage, then it should be similar to a M700 VLS with the 26" Bull Barrel(no flutes).

And a very High Power Variable Scope with Target Turrets will help attain accuracy at l-o-n-g distance. It needs to be a Variable so you can crank it back if the Mirage gets too bothersome. If you planned to Hunt the rifle, then I'd recommend Mil-Dots, but since you don't, the Target Turrets will do just what you want.

Mount the Scope in Burris "Signature" Rings. Then if you get into really long distance shooting, you can get the Eccentric Insert Set for $10 and not have to buy an expensive Tapered Rail Base.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Bartsche:
... the .308 is to me a poorly designed cartridge ...

I've seen Roger post thoughts similar to that before and not real sure how it is possible for him to be so completely confused!!!

Hey!! When you're me it's easy roger

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

Are you and those Stevens not getting along now???

Problems? what kind of??

Take a look at terrible range report thread. The Stevens aren't alone. The 12vbss-s has an accutrigger that hangs up abot every 7th shot. roger

quote:

You have not told us if you reload! If you do then your cartridge choice has just got a whole lot bigger.
Criteria:
1. must be reasonably accurate beyond 300yds
2. low recoil
3. readily available cases
4. not finnicky to reload
5. must be available in Savage rifle

I'm at work right now so I don't have much time to read through everything, but to answer a few questions:
Yes, I do reload but I still like to shoot something I can find a wide selection of bullets for as well as easy availibilty of cases, load info, ect. so I try to stick with the more popular cartridges. I do have a Remington 700 in .270 but it kicks a little harder than I would like for a target rifle. Its not a problem for hunting but after firing off 20 or more shots I usually end up with a sore and bruised shoulder. I've never really shot it much for that very reason so I haven't experimented with it yet at extended ranges. I would like something a little milder and more comfortable to shoot.
Savage isn't a requirement, I just thought I would give one a try and I liked the option of fairly easy barrel changes if I ever decide to switch things around.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[Hey!! When you're me it's easy roger

I finally had a chance to thouroughly read through everyone's replies and right now I'm leaning toward the .260 Rem. Problem is, who chambers an affordable rifle for this cartridge? I've been searching all over Remington's site and all I can find is a Model Seven. I find it hard to beleive they don't chamber one of the most popular rifles, the model 700 in their own cartridge. I can't seem to find any .260's in a Savage either. I'm a little skeptical on the Rugers as I haven't heard a lot of good things about them being as accurate out of the box.

For light rifles at 1000 yards these days, you will see the 6.5x284 dominate:

http://www.iowa1000ydbenchrest.com/2007%20results/MATCH...=en#ba36df04d48a0ebc



Bart Bobbit Dec 31, 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_thread/t...=en#12c97737121b8f08

quote:

I've shot my .30-.338 Keele next to folks shooting a 6.5-.284 in 1000
yard matches and had to use about 10 to 15 percent more wind with my
190-gr. bullets compared to their 142-gr. bullets leaving at the same
speed. If I were going to build another long range target rifle, it
would be a 6.5-.284.

I think you should try long range hunting.com From my time at LRH I got a very distinct impression that 308 was viewed as THE cartridge for learning the LR art.

But don't ignore your 223. If it has a 9 twist I would invest the money in a sack of match LD bullets and a scope with turrets to adjust POI. Drop doesn't matter on the range providing you know the range and the dial up settings.

Your practice will be cheaper (less powder) and more pleasant (less noise and recoil) Find your limits with that and then consider a 308.

quote:

But don't ignore your 223. If it has a 9 twist I would invest the money in a sack of match LD bullets and a scope with turrets to adjust POI. Drop doesn't matter on the range providing you know the range and the dial up settings.

Mine has the factory 12 twist rate. I do have a pretty decent scope on it, a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20 with turrets.
Any suggestions on an affordable rifle in .260 Rem?

Screw on one of the new Shilen 1/8 .243 barrels and use the 115 grain that Tubb sells, easy on the shoulder and great in the wind.

quote:

Originally posted by rowdyredneck:
Any suggestions on an affordable rifle in .260 Rem?

While the .260 is a great cartridge, Remington didn't stand behind it very well, and they are getting hard to find. Unless you reload, ammo can be difficult to find too. Seems like they made a run of 700 VLSs a few years ago, but I can't remember for sure. A 7mm-08 would be mighty close to .260 performance, and is a bit more common. You mentioned initially that you wanted something that will shoot flatter than your .223. A .308 won't, but it is still a great long range cartridge (trajectory is easily overcome by knowing the range and using turrets) and in a suitably heavy rifle, recoil is not bad. If you are limited to factory ammo, the .308 is hard to beat.

There... That should be enough to add some confusion...

Yep, I'm more confused than ever
My whole objective with this rifle is something flatter shooting than the .223 with mild recoil. I can handle the recoil of the .270 but it gets a bit much after several shots, so I want a little less thump which is why I initially chose the .308. After reading all the raves about the 6.5 mm I started leaning more toward something along those lines. As I said before, I do reload but I like to stay with something that is somewhat common so I can find components without too much trouble. From what I understand the 6.5-284 is still considered a wildcat and I'm not sure I want to venture into those waters yet.

Since you relaod, I think you're in pretty good shape with the .260. Recoil will be similar to the 25-06, but there are some really slippery, flat-shooting bullets available for it. You may not notice a substantial difference between it and your .223 at 300, but as you stretch things out, the .260 will take over. That being said, there are exceptions. There are also some very high BC .223 bullets available. If you had a fast-twist .223 (1 in 8"), you could load them up and go pretty dang long with them. Another light recoiling option would be a fast twist 22-250...

Have a look at this post on another forum. Apparently Savage will do the .260 through it's custom shop, and the cost is very affordable. Maybe they would do up a 1-8" twist 22-250 for you...

.260 Rem discussion on 24 Hour Campfire

John

Try and keep from mentioning that the 6.5-284 is not a killer long range cartridge to the USMC...they are still setting records with the factory Black Hills ammunition. Ditto with all those guys shooting the 1000yard matches with those and 308's. My 12BVSS single shot 308 just a ten-shot group at 300Yds that measured .882", that's the laminated stock version. The accu-trigger is the best factory trigger this side of the 40X of old. The 223 does have the 1:9" twist and will stabilize the 80gr Nosler Competition bullets.

I got six of them and they are all sub-moa out to 400yds.

Rich
DRSS

You say you don't want to get into a wildcat like the 6.5x284. What is different with the Rem 260 it is just a necked down 308 just like the 6.5x284 is a necked down Win 284.
Here is another comparson for you with the 260 you have a 6.5x51 it would better to have a 6.5X55. Or neck up a 6mm Rem to 6.5 and have a 6.5X57. And a 6.5 Rem mag will shoot 100 grain
bullets at 3,700 FPS. MY 25-06AI will shoot 87 grainers at 3,920.

Well I like the .308 and my Savage FHSAK is a delight to shoot . Brass is available any where .30 caliber projectiles are abundant and wide weights and styles to suit almost any need !.

So now what's the problem ??. Out of the box it shot 1.625 " - .75 " depending on who's ammo you used . Hand loads so far have me at .375 " -.625 " for # 5 at 100 Yd. . So again what's the problem with .308 Savage ??. ...

P S .50 Cal are flat shooters to !. What ever you hit with them is flat down and out !!!. Recoil well that's another story !. How ever they do reach out and touch things 2K Yd. and beyond !.

A few years ago there was a bad bad Taliban out around 2100 yd.firing down on U S troops with a SVD according to the range spotter . Now when the Sniper squeezed the trigger on that Big .50 single shot . The video clearly showed Mon Manure Taliban dismembered in three separate pieces !. Video courtesy U S Army by way of Iraq . ...